Talk:Bulgars

Total Crap!

This article is not even worth for toilet paper! I've never seen so much fake information at one place! I recommend to the admins to go shoot themselves! jingiby, мога да ти кажа само, че си един мръсен предател и отрепка и ще си получиш заслуженото рано или късно! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.255.198.95 (talk) 10:52, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Bulgars are Iranians from Kingdom of Balhara

"...they didn't know the name of Christ, and with their Scythian ignorance they were serving the Sun, the Moon and the other Stars." Teofilakt Ohridski describing the Bulgars

"In the second century A.D., the Bulgars came to Europe from their old homeland, the Kingdom of Balhara situated in the Mount Imeon area (present Hindu Kush in northern Afghanistan)." http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3236.htm

Why do you, "admins" of this crappy article think, that Teofilakt Ohridski cannot make a difference between Europeid Scythians and mongoloid turks? You are complete fools. You think that you are smarter and bigger than the US Government and you dare to oppose it? You are so pathetic...I feel pity for you.

Bulgars

There is lots of bias and racism going on in wikipedia topics that deal with Bulgarians. People, especially people in Wikipedia, should understand that not every thing in this world is Turkic and that not every tribe ever from Asia, or Central Asia is Turkic, this has been a particular problem in Wikipedia for quite some time now, where bias seems to rule the land and get the upper hand, usurping other theories (which by the way have lots of evidence and sources, from proper websites and proper research and historians) with force and racism (clearly as many editiors have experienced). This really is irritating a lot of people, and in the purest sense is simply not fair. This frustration is justly founded. It seems that lots of articles that deal with Bulgarian topics (like this for example) are stalked and ruled (very unfairly) by Turks which is just ridiculous, since they are Bulgarian topics not Turkic topics. Lots of people vandalise Bulgarian pages with propaganda (i.e:old theories and information which since has strongly been doubted by a lot of people, and since then new theories have been found with stronger more factual evidence-which in the end is simply ignored just because somewhere down the line it wasnt or something wasnt Turkic). All this is disturbing really and stinks of racism towards Persian and Iranian peoples (which goes against morals and human rights). All of the above is simply a drop of the massive problem that is going on! Basically some editors have presented additional theories (nothing wrong with that) about the origins of the Bulgars. The important thing here is that these edits had, justly, proper verifiable sources from a wide collection of books, websites, and newspapers(which after reading the wikipedia rules, one finds that thay are perfectly acceptable). The biggest shock which is just plain unbelievable is the latest findings of DNA, which prove that the modern day Bulgarians (and thus the Bulgars) have a lot in common with ancient and current Pamirian/Iranian peoples. ALL the discussion should have stopped right there, with no more warring, insults and arguments, as anyone with common sense or in the medical field knows that DNA doesn't lie,ever and it is especially important as the best evidence in court cases, murders and CSI's. Not only is there DNA evidence (which from this point you don't need any other evidence really) but also linguistic evidence (lots of words from Iranian origin in modern Bulgarian language, and also place names, people names etc etc). There's even a replica of the Madara horseman in ancient Persian lands. A reference to a whole nice list has been added to this article which has a whole table showing all the words in alphabetical order with origins in different dielects -but guess what?it has been conveniently removed, because as you might have guessed by now-it wasn't Turkic enough. Yet and additional source has been found, behind an already sufficient collection, stating that the Bulgars originated from Pamirian lands; this source, by the way, is from the History faculty of the University of Michigan. How much more evidence, proof and source do you possibly still need? The problem here is that the article is edited by a lot of people who are not even Bulgarian -I dont think you people have got a right to assert who we are and where we come from. You might then say that we all need neutral editors, but that's where the next problem comes from- most of the editors who are not Bulgarian are Turks (there is a history of great tension and violence between Turks and Bulgarians, so Turkish input on this page should be seen as hugely biased and not neutral at all-it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure this out)who insist that the Bulgarians are Turks also-its as if they want to make us Turks no matter what and against all odds. Why do I say against all odds? Well for one there is DNA evidence, and then you get research by real historians (who are qualified just as much as the historians and researchers who inist on the Turkic theory) saying that the Bulgars were Iranian, and then you also get linguistic and cultural evidence-which is all removed in the blink of an eye!!! Anyone who is reading this-please open your eyes to the massive problem that is going on here and read the previous edits where the iranian theory is mentioned -sometime in early August and before-you will see the comments on the edits-read it all an see the truth. This page is corrupt and usurped. There is so much racism here towards Iranian people and Persians (which goes against human rights)-this is disgusting. All rationality and common sense has been lost and thrown away when dealing this page, the Iranian theory is not given a chance when there is so much evidence by so many researchers( a whole team traveled to Iran for crying out loud-to collect DNA samples), icluding Petar Dobrev and historians from the University of Michigan http://sitemaker.umich.edu/mladjov/files/bulgarian_rulers.pdf. There is a lot of linguistic, cultural and DNA evidence-WHY IS IT ALL BEING IGNORED, WHY ARE THERE WARNINGS AND BANS TO THOSE THAT TRY TO CHANGE THIS????!!!!This is hugely unfair!Why in the world is the Iranian theory seen as so bad-when there is overwhelming evidence? By the way someone has said, on the comments of the edits, that DNA is not irrefutable and implying that it just might as well be useless. All this has to change Whoever is reading this and agrees even slightly or is interested in seeing what all the evidence is and what all the fuss is about, please read the previous edits from ABOUT LATE JULY TO EARLY AUGUST-read the whole article but pay special attention to the "new research 2010" part. One more source which should have been added but hasn't ( a new one):http://sitemaker.umich.edu/mladjov/files/bulgarian_rulers.pdf

ALL THIS above is just a drop of the problem, I left out a lot of detail of the problem and many more good arguments out,as I don't have time now —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.121 (talk) 13:06, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

This article is not about the Slavic Bulgarians, but about completely different people - the Turkic Bulgars. Jingby (talk) 13:19, 21 November 2010 (UTC) Oh my, if you read anthing in the past edits, you would have seen that, from the "new research 2010" part that today's modern day Bulgarians have a lot in common with Pamirian people, DNA wise, so that means that we are then descended from the Bulgars. And what do you mean Slavic Bulgarians -they are not Slavic, they don't look Slavic (even says in Wikipedia they look different from other Slavs) and the new DNA evidence shows that we have mostly Pamirian not Slavic genes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.116.121 (talk) 13:06, 21 November 2010 (UTC) And what is wrong with the Bulgars being Iranic, why must they be Turkic and absolutely nothing else,is it shameful to be Iranic or something? In wikipedia at least, there is a monopoly over their ethnicity, how dare someone who isn't ethnic Bulgarian say what our ancestors were, and on top of that purposefully ignore lots of sources and evidence. Why must they be Turkic, is there a rule that they must be only Turkic, is there a rule to ignore new and old evidence and sources stating otherwise, and warning and banning those that decide to do something about this unfairness. For the record the new research 2010 part in previous edits shows that according to new DNA data, the modern day Bulgarians have mostly Iranic DNA(from Pamir), no wonder we don't look Slavic, most of us. This shows then that the greater part of us are descended from the Bulgars and the other part being Thracian, and only probably 1 percent Slavic. If the Bulgars were Turkic, then currently we would have had mostly Turkic DNA not Iranic (Pamir). EVERYONE, IF YOU WANT A SAMPLE OF THE REAL TRUTH, read this:http://samoistina.at.ua/2/similarities.htm, it has scholarly sources! Also read the sources from the previous edits, from late July to early August. They are proper sources, verifiable sources. When these were presented, the biased people had nothing to say so they responded to say that these sources weren't valid, but according to wikipedia's rules they are valid41.132.116.121 (talk) 21:21, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Here is not a phantasy forum. End of my comments. Regards. Jingby (talk) 04:45, 22 November 2010 (UTC) Typical, again someone doesn't know how to respond because they logically know I am right, they don't have a proper arugementatice comeback, they don't have a justified comeback with any weight, they just plainly don't know how to respond to all the overwhelming evidence and sources that just simply throw the Turkic theory out the water. With comebacks like these, and I have seen a lot of them, this issue will never get solved, and the monopoly of the Bulgars and Bulgarian's ethnicity will continue with utmost unfairness. This is totally messes up, this is a prime example of how corrupt wikipedia is. You wikipedias spend so much time editing wikiepedia, thinking you are contributing even more to this "prestigious, great and academic world wide information and education project that is wikipedia", feeling good and great, with honour that you are doing a fine job to contribute to education to thousands, to add to the most valuable thing ever-knowledge; you people even create good looking and impressive personal user pages and show off all the hard work that you have done, wanting, if there is anything to want, respect - BUT ALL THIS IS AN ILLUSION, USELLESS AND YOU ARE FOOLING YOURSELVES BY WRITING HISTORY THE WAY YOU WANT IT TO BE, BY IGNORING EXTREMELY VALUABLE INFORMATION, SOURCES AND EVIDENCE, GOING SO FAR AS TO EVEN IGNORE DNA EVIDENCE. WE ARE MEANT TO PUT TRUTH AND PRESTIGE TO THIS ENCYCLOPEDIA, TO EDUCATE AND NOT LIE TO PEOPLE, INSTEAD THE OPPOSITE IS HAPPENING. When people said at university not to usetrust wikipedia too much and to maybe rather use other sources, I used to think that that is a wrong, unjustified statement, thinking that of course wikipedia is a good and trustworthy source of info, but now I see what is happening really, how low wikipedia has fallen.41.133.47.98 (talk) 19:49, 22 November 2010 (UTC) AND HERE IS ONE MORE OFFICIAL SOURCE,(CANT GET MORE OFFICIAL THEN THIS!!!) in addition to the already many sources mentioned in the article ('new research 2010 and language part') around late July to ealry August 2010, you will notice it from the comments of the edits around that time SAYING(WITH ALL FAIRNESS TO THE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE RECENTLY AND FROM YEARS PASSED) THAT THE BULGARS CAME FROM THE KINGDOM OF BALHARA http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3236.htm (as some historians point out, but of course the historians were not Turks or Turkic, so you will ignore and ridicule them, but that goes without saying). With all due fairness, and with all logic - proper sources from governments and universities (which now are starting to number as much or MORE THAN THE SOURCES THAT SAY THE BULGARS ARE TURKIC) should have higher priorities than the opinion and POV's of the administrators and editors who abuse this page with their nonsense(i.e: governemt and university sources are much, much better than the opinions of the editors that say we didn't come from Balhara and/or that we are Turks/Turkic and not Iranic). You people must know that in the end the right always wins over the wrong, truth always triumphs, your(your=every editor who supports the Turkic "theory" by ignoring or deleting sources and evidence showing otherwise) siege WILL be lifted from this page eventually, this propanda must eventually come to an end and please, I BEG YOU, dont send me links to wikipedia rules that you people twist so much for your agenda and Turkish POV, that in the end they are not even recognizable anymore. EVERYONE MUST COME HERE TO THIS DISCUSSION AND SOLVE THIS CRISIS ONCE AND FOREVER ALL. EVERYONE - JUST KNOW THAT WHOEVER DARES CHANGE SOMETHING AND TRIES TO KEEP IT ON THE PAGE(SAYING IRANIC AND NOT TURKIC) - YOU WILL MOST DEFINITELY GET BANNED - THIS IS PROOF OF THE UNFAIRNESS AND POV (yes it is POV once you start to ignore and delete sources and overwhelming evidence that dismiss the Turkic view, failing TO EVEN AT LEAST MENTION ON THE PAGE, LIKE IT RIGHTFULLY DESERVES)41.133.46.200 (talk) 13:25, 26 November 2010 (UTC) |} How about you people take a look at this, especially Finn Diesel and all the editors in vigorous support of the Turkic theory : Bold textEditing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles and all editors. This is from Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view. If the rules are functional then why doesnt the article represent all significant views that have been published by reliable sources (such as for example, there are many more examples, such as university, historians and proper news websites, and the state governemt website of USA) It also says the articles must be made without bias - the complete opposite of what is happening here, as this article is made with lots of bias and not "all significant views that have been published by reliable sources" get put on the article. In reality what is really hapening is that all the research, evidence and reliable sources (all of which has grown to the same size or possibly greater than the Turkic theory and its sources) just gets deleted removed from the article and completely ignored, and the funny thing is that nobody is doing something about it, and if they try, the 'editors' throw and twist the wikipedia rules to crush them, or simply just ban them. "NPOV is a fundemental principle of Wikipedia" - well then why do you people ignore this and push your Turkic POV and ignore and delete all other views (the Iranian theory, after so much sources and evidence, has become a pretty big, important and significant view, the Turkic theory is out dated). How can you people continue to recieve various praise and awards on your user pages and how can you be so proud of them, thinking you have contributes to the greater good, the greater knowledge, thinking that ultimately you are helpping people with knowledge when all that you are doing is being highly disruptive and ignoring rules(by deleting evidence and sources and by not giving it a chance to be properly mention, if at all, on the page) and actually hiding information (which is competitive to the Turkic theory) from millions of people who have a basic right to read all views and all evidence, I mean all, everything, before making up their own mind. How can you people take that chance away from millions of people and then be proud of your work? Excuse me if this has gotten sort of long, but this issue is just to big and critically important to ignore41.132.178.10 (talk) 16:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Christ almighty, what a wall of text. How do you expect someone to sift through all of that and address your complaints? And could you post a link to that "study" that you claim proves there's a genetic link between Bulgarians and Iranians/Pamiris? AlecTrevelyan402(Click Here to leave a message) —Preceding undated comment added 17:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC). I do expect actually - lots of facts need to be mentioned, so there is lots to be said - it is a very important issue so if anyone expects this to get solved once and for all they must read every single thing. First, before the links, have you read the "new research 2010" section in past edits? Also read the etymology: Different theories exist for the etymology of Bulgar. In Sanskrit, Bal means "strength" and hara means "the possessor"; in some sources, the name Balhara and Bulgar/Bulgaria is one and the same. Then I expect you have read the language part as well. Now for the links:

http://sitemaker.umich.edu/mladjov/files/bulgarian_rulers.pdf - from the university of Michigan, says that the Bulgars came from Pamir, which was an Iranic/Persian land

   http://samoistina.at.ua/2/similarities.htm - really summarised, there is more which is not mentioned,not really an official website itself, but the sources are really good

http://dnes.dir.bg/news.php?id=6541326&fp=1 http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117006 - novinite is an official news website, a very big one. People have complained that newspapers are no good, but according to wikipedia they are perfectly acceptable. http://sofiamorningnews.net/ - also an official news website http://thearchaeologicalbox.com/en/news/dna-analysis-reveals-pamir-origin-bulgarians - archaeology website http://groznijat.tripod.com/b_lang/bl_a_v.html - very important summary of the Iranic words which were in the Bulgar language and are now in the modern language. Additionaly many names in Bulgaria - place names (the name Balkan is found in Persian lands at present) and peoples names - Asparuh is a full Iranian name - meaning something like horserider. There is also an exact replica of the Madara horseman in Iranic lands as well, but the link I have long since lost, will look for it. A=Other cultural aspects like the one festival in Bulgaria (where people dress with long pointed white and black masks and dance around a fire - not familiar with it that much, so dont know the name, but it exists) - it is said that comes from Zoroastrian roots. Also it has been said that some of the structures in Pliska resemble religious Zoroastrian centres - it was in the past edits of wikipedia - go look for it. http://www.csc.kth.se/~dilian/Papers/bulgars.pdf - this is a source that someone else put up. In it, it clearly states that the Iranic theory is part of the 3 major theories (it says Sarmatian - but they were Iranic). Earlier I mentioned, above, that according to neutrality rules in wikipedia, all major view should be added. So far that hasn't happened, as there has been extreme prejudice against the Iranic theory, so it goes against the rules. http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/8511032 - an academic website that mentions the Bulgars could have come from Pamir/Hindukush - Iranic lands, apperently where the kingdom of Balhara was situated (Balhara is very close to Bulgar, I think Bulhi is the Armenian word for Bulgar, and historians from the past have mentioned this as well - "Ashharatsuyts" by Anania Shirakatsi in the 7th century AD , Khorenatsi, Moses. History of the Armenians. Translation and Commentary of the Literary Sources by Robert W. Thomson. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1978. 400 pp. ISBN 9780674395718, Agathias of Myrina, Theophylact Simocatta, and Michael the Syrian also identify Mount Imeon (Pamir/Hindukush - Balhara was there) as the homeland of the Bulgars. Mount Imeon is even honoured in the South Shetland Islands where there are a lot of Blgarian scientist, by naming a mountain range after it. This shows a Bulgarian connection. Lots of places there are named after Bulgarian themes/Topics. http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/connections/Vedic-Bulgaria.php - not really offcicial but it carries the point across. What is official though that it is written by Petar Dobrev, a long time advcocate/historian/researcher of the Iranic theory. http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117903 - another version http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117192the third version - one or two things are different I think http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php - in it it says "It may also be stated that several scholars have noticed Iranic elements amongst the Proto-Bulgarians. (Beshevliev 1967, Schmitt 1985)" http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3236.htm - from an official state government website of the USA

Here is one more source: Dobrev, Petar. Unknown Ancient Bulgaria. Sofia: Ivan Vazov Publishers, 2001. 158 pp. (in Bulgarian) ISBN 9546041211 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.232.75.208 (talk) 11:46, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Here is another source: "[2]". Brockhaus Conversations-Lexikon Bd. 7. Amsterdam 1809, S. 161-162. [3]". Pierer's Universal-Lexikon, Band 2. Altenburg 1857, S. 230.

There are more links which I am busy looking for at the moment(saved somewhere, when I find them, I will post them) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.178.10 (talk) 20:17, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Here is more information pointing to the Iranic origin of the Bulgars:

The Bulgars had scytho-cimmerian origins according to Dzhagfar Tarihi (History of Dzhagfar - a medieval history of the Bulgarians. Volga Bulgaria), Bulgarian revolutionary and many ancient and modern historians. An early Armenian historian Moses Khorenatsi mentions the Bulgars as the "people Bulh", who settled in a region in Armenia (with the permission of king Arshak I 127-114 BC ), later called Vanand (after the Bulgarian king Vanand/Vund, who lead the Bulgars to Caucasus). He uses the information provided by an earlier syrian author Mar Abas Katina. In the geographical book Ashharacujc based on earlier researches by Claudius Ptolemaeus, the land of origin of the Bulgars is pointed to be the mountain Imeon (Pamir and Hindu Kush). [1] (map from Ashharacujc. See north of India - the Bulhi Tribe).

According to the history of Dzhagfar the Bulgars were Scythians from Pre-Turkic Turan/Pamir who later mixed with Cimmerians. They traveled a lot and established different countries with towns made out of stone. A Bulgarian revolutionary, nationalist and ethnologist/historian Georgi Rakovski refers to the Proto-Bulgarians as Aryans and Gimmerians/Cimmerians (He called the Bulgarians Bolg-Arians/Bolg-Aryans). A Muslim medieval scientist Ibn Fadlan who traveled to Volga Bulgaria calls the Bulgars "Sakalibi" and mentions the differences between the Turkic people he met and the Bulgars. He says that the Turkic tribes live primitively and savagely, they eat mainly meat, unlike them the Bulgarians have towns, laws, greeted him with bread (this tradition is still preserved in Both Danube and Volga Bulgaria) and grow different crops as well as breed cattle.

The names of towns, regions, peoples and mountains in the regions Bulgars inhabited also point to Imeon: Shuman (Bactria-Pamir) = Shumen (Danube Bulgaria) = Shumanai (east side of the Caspian sea) Ispara (Bactria) = Ispor (Bulgarian ruler) Balgar (Bactria) = Bolgar (Volga Bulgaria) = Bulgar Balkh (Bactria) = Balkhar (Balkaria-Caucasus) = Bulkar-Balkh (Balkaria-Caucas) Varnu (Bactria) = Varna (Bulgaria) Madar (Bactria) = Madara (Dunabe Bulgaria) Boil (Bactria) = Boil (Bulgarian title) Balkhani (Mountains on the eastern side of the Caspian) = Balk(h)an (Mountain range on the Balkan Peninsula) Suvar (Bactria) = Suvar (Voga Bulgaria) = Suvar/Sevar (Bulgarian Ruler) Osh (Bactria) = Oshed (Volga Bulgaria) etc.

The names of the Bulgarian rulers were also Indo-European in origin and some were identical with the names of sarmatian kings - Asparukh (Ispor), Kuber, Kubrat (Kurt), Suvar (Sevar), Gostun, Baian, Avitohol, Omurtag, Krum etc. Their language was also Indo European - from the Indo-Iranian group. Words such as Shar, Kushta, Kuche, Hubost, Zhena, Brat, Kaka, Kurpa, Chembas, Na, Nana, Khazna etc. have survived in the Bulgarian language to this day. [2] (Words from archeological findings from Danube, Great and Volga Bulgarias and their analogues in Pamir, Persia, Caucasus, Western Europe and Sumer)

Prof. Ivo Kremenski, director of the national laboratory for genetics in Bulgaria, states that the Bulgars came from around the Pamir mountains (this region is linked to the Iranian theory) http://paper.standartnews.com/en/article.php?d=2010-05-26&article=33187 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smart Nomad (talk • contribs) 16:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I have always supported the idea of adding "Iranian origin theory" section because such a theory exist and it has its supporters among historians. Moreover, the source from University of Michigan states that after the dissolution of Hunnic confederacy turkic and hunnic tribes were incorporated into the Bulgar ethnos. That perfectly matches with the "ethnogenesis approach" of other editiors such as Hxseek who states that Bulgars were a mixture of Turkic, Iranic and other tribes.Scheludko (talk) 06:37, 11 December 2010 (UTC) [ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smart Nomad (talk • contribs) 19:06, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

In the lead was pushed a sentence about the opinionof the researcher Osman Karatay, that the Bulgars were a Caucasian people. This is total misleading interpretation. You can check in the citted book on pages 6 and 10. Karatay describes a branch of the Bulgars, who settled in Caucasus as Caucasian Bulgars, but his opinion in general is they were Turkic people. I am going to remove this nonsence.Jingby (talk) 07:04, 31 August 2011 (UTC) Smart Nomad - When you argue with a fool it is very likely that he is doing the same. Спри да си губиш времето и да се унижаваш да спориш с тая отрепка jingby. Приятелски съвет. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.255.198.95 (talk) 15:34, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Origin of the name

For some reason, the OED seems to think they were Finnic:

• Bulgar: "Any member of an ancient Finnish tribe who conquered the Slavs of Mœsia in the seventh century A.D. and settled what is now Bulgaria, becoming Slavonic in language"

The word origin is only given as OCS blŭgarinŭ, in English use since the 18th century. --dab (𒁳) 10:30, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

That sounds really odd. I think Finnish tribe is a bit off. Finns and Bulgars might have a common ancestor around Altai mountain but it is highly unlikely that one group emerged from the other. Is this the newest edition of OED? --Laveol ^T 15:36, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, for someones' satisfaction the article was semi-protected but was left in a very non-satisfactory state. For example, the ==Etymology / Name== section was reverted (by you know who-y-gibi and his fellows) to a very incomplete version, but with the

box deleted.

So now I will have to plead someone to add it back until there will be presented all serious theories about the name of Bulgars/Bulgarians. (Всъшност не ми става ясно защо трябва да се излагаме толкова масирано пред чужденците - българи да се дърлят като цигани на английски пред всички... то не знам абсурдно ли е, смешно ли е, трагично ли...) Hansen 87.246.13.107 (talk) 02:46, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Racial tipe and descendants

I have removed some pseudo-science information added from Bulgarian nationalistic biased point of view. I have replaced it wit reliable scientific neutral info and unbiased sources. Jingiby (talk) 06:14, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

This article is neither about Bulgaria, nor abouth the Bulgarians. The point of view of some, i.e minority of the Bulgarian scientist is fringe science. Here is not a place for such fringe views. Jingiby (talk) 07:10, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

This is NOT pseudoscience. I suggest you go and fully learn the fundemenatal defintiton of pseudoscience as it seems you do not have a grasp of what it means and this is the incorrect place and topic to use this word. How can it be, if people - scientists, doctors and anthropologists actually bothered to travel abroad and take DNA samples and later analyze them. This was published in proper major newspapers that are ALLOWED under wiki rules (I repeat this again - they are allowed - make sure you read this sentence until you grasp it properly). I am NOT a nationalist (thank you for this lowly, uncivilised attack - did I attack you?). Speaking of neutral - I made that piece neutral and used words such as could and may. SO, as you can understand from the above points, it is neutral and not biased. Logically (and i repeat that word again, because rationality and science is based on logic and clear thought), it is LESS biased (I repeat, read it until yougrasp it, please-it is less biased to have "two" possible views on a topic than one -this decreases bias and makes it "safer". An example - numerous health concepts, such as the effect of coffee on the human body, get scientific attention and a lof of the time, numerous expirements are carried out to get more data and establish a conclusion - for example lots of studies say that coffee is actually healthy for the body and protects the liver, while other studies say that it is not healthy and can damage the body. This trend is seen in many topics of research in general -one thing says this, and another says the opposite. Now to the Bulgars - from the example mentioned just now, it is understandable that another study is mentioned as well, not just one study and view - as that would clearly be unbalanced and biased. So, are you one to talk about bias, since it seems you are doing the same. I dont know, but it seems to me you have some innate trouble with any other view of Bulgars and modern Bulgarians than the ones that you hold - as people can see, this is getting in the way of editing articles and putting in more information (which is useful, especially when it is sourced and the sources are allowed). The mere fact that you are attacking a sourced piece, and using negatively strong, (emotion filled words and sentences, such as "nationalistic", "biased" and "pseudoscience" (even though it was carried out by non pseudoscientists and mentioned in major newspaper), suggests you have some form of negative strong feelings, hate or discrimination to the other studies and research. You are (wrongly) calling me nationalistic? Well then I can say the same about you, who tries to "Hide" and remove anything that does not agree with your thoughts and views - I mean you go to the extent of using those negative words mentioned above - did I do that to you? - no, because it was never my attention to fight you, just to put extra information, thats all.In a an article, one should be civilised and put their feelings aside. Now I know you are going to reply with an ultrashort message which will just repeat your initial words (or not reply at all), because it would seem that you dont know how to argue and carry across your points properly. I repeat this again - there was nothing wrong with my sourced, unbiased and balanced piece. it just sheds more light on the matter, which is awlays useful (unless you want to argue somehow and say that in general it is not useful to add information that would shed more light to articles). By the way, I apolagize for the inconvenience caused by my editing of Bulgarians instead of Proto Bulgarians. The ambiguity issue is duly noted by me now, after some thought, and I agree, it should be Proto Bulgarians.Smart Nomad (talk) 14:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a forum. If there is reliable information about your claims, published in scientific sources, please provide it. I see only fringe science. Check also: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) and Wikipedia:No original research. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 14:56, 13 October 2011 (UTC) No kidding, why are you saying the obvious, I know its not a forum - what does that random comment have to do with anything here. I will report this to a couple of admins, because it seems you have ignored my argument completely and keep reverting edits and you do not in any way explain your points (as I thought would happen), making the articel biased to only one side. By the way if it is not about Bulgarians (which is in itself weird, since Bulgarians descend from Bulgars, but anyway) then why is there a significant amount of information on Modern Bulgarians in the article - seems to me like hypocracy. It really does seem you have no idea how to argue as all you keep doing is ignoring my points and reverting edits and dont bother to discuss anything - how is that cvilised and constructive?? I provided sources and you keep removing them 0 which is vandalism, do you understand that? I will revert your edit again, since that seems the right thing to do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smart Nomad (talk • contribs) 15:03, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Where are the reliable sources. As you can see I have added a lot of such in support of my opinion. Regs! Jingiby (talk) 17:48, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Hre are the reliable sources, as you can see I also added reliable sources in support of my opinion. I am not sure if you read the wiki rules, if not you should read them. Then you would see that major newspapers are allowed. http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117006 http://paper.standartnews.com/en/article.php?d=2010-05-26&article=33187 http://sofiamorningnews.net. Having said that, there really shouldn't be a problem, since the sources fit in with wikipedia's rules. Additionally, this is new, interesting info, that can shed light on the arguments of their origins - if something can shed light and help solve issues why is it bad?Smart Nomad (talk) 09:36, 18 November 2011 (UTC) Wikipedia is not a forum. Jingiby (talk) 10:14, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Stupidity is contagious

I've never seen so much crap written at one place! Who wrote this article, some 5-years old drunk child? What a shame for the admin that has locked it...in which age do you live, in the totalitarian? It's the 21st century, stop with this anti-bulgarian propaganda finally. If the Bulgars/Bulgarians are mongols then I am the prince of Monacco! Again - stupidity is contagious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.252.48.199 (talk) 15:47, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Edits issue

The following is about issues with the articles and edits. I have tried on numerous occasions to communicate with Jingiby to resolve the matter of him removing my edits for no good reason. I have written a number of discussions on this talk page, explaining my arguments and why I did the edits, but Jingiby ignores them and does not bother to explain his reasoning at all and provides no arguments – in other words he does not discuss anything. He repeatedly says that this is not a forum (even saying things such as “fantasy forum”, thus implying that I use it as such. That statement however is wrong, since a talk page is supposed to be a place where you discuss edits and resolve matters on edits and problem with the article etc – which I am doing. He has implied that I use it as a forum a couple of times, each time not explaining his reasoning. Secondly, I have provided reliable sources with my edits – I even made sure to read wiki’s rules about the sources. I then explained to Jingiby that according to wikipedia’s rules, my sources are in fact reliable. Jingiby then replies with a very short message, a couple of times, saying that they are not reliable, even when wikipedia’s rules allow them – I am absolutely speechless – I have tried, like you are supposed to, to reason and have constructive discussions with this guy to resolve this matter, but each time he either says nothing at all, or continues to say that my sources are unreliable – even though they are in accordance to wikipedia’s rules. Then in his edit’s comments he writes that my edits are “POV” or “blatant POV”, (even though I am only writing what other researchers have said - in other words nothing here is my opinion – I am only adding to the article and trying to improve it), not bothering to discuss on the talk page how my edits are blatant or even how they are POV in the first place – Jingiby never discusses anything and ignores everything I say – I have tried to communicate to him like a proper, good editor, even like a human being, but he ignore me each time. He does not have any argument and reason to back up his claims and accusations against me or what I add to the article. Once, in the this talk page, he even randomly put a empty box (blank picture) in my discussion, thus ruining the structure of what I wrote and possibly distracting readers who might be reading my discussions – this, to me (and I’m sure others may agree) shows immature, unconstructive behavior – I have not, for example, ever placed a random picture in his writings (of which there is barely any, as he doesn’t ever discuss) and thus ruining the structure and neatness of what he wrote – you can see in the talk page’s history. In his latest edit comments he writes that he removes my edits because of the discussions on the talk page – I don’t understand his reasoning here, since I have been the only one discussing – he hasn’t discussed anything. As understandable from all that I have said here and in my previous discussions on the latest talk page (above from this section)– I cannot take him seriously at all. Here is why I cannot take him seriously: 1) He writes that my sources are invalid after I have explained that according to wiki rules they actually are valid – he doesn’t explain why my sources are invalid. The very fact that he keeps repeating that shows that he either hasn’t read the rules or that he wants to purposefully act in an unconstructive and bad manner or look for arguments. 2) He hasn’t discussed anything – he hasn’t had any real arguments to back up his claims and uses no reasoning. He also ignores wiki rules on sources. 3) He says my edits are POV without ever explaining why – he has no apparent reason on why they are POV. His reason that my sources are not valid does not count as according to wiki rules it is valid. Basically, there exists a professor who is a director of the genealogy academy who states that the Bulgars come from Pamir – now I am not saying that is proven or undeniable – in my edit I just added what he said. Since he is a professor and since he is a director of something major and prestigious as a genealogy academy – that means that he has proper and respectable credentials – I thus don’t understand how Jingiby is so, so very against me including this, especially since I have provided a reliable source. There also exists scientists and a doctor that have gone on a trip to central Asia to carry research on this matter – these are not some self educated or new age people, but actual scientists and a doctor – I have even provided reliable sources. Currently, with my edits reverted by Jingiby, the page has only one point of view – the Turkic theory. Now that in itself may be considered POV since the page only represents the Turkic theory and no other, even though other information exists (with sources). Other theories and information, as I have provided edits on, are associated with respectable people such as directors of genealogy and a couple of professors, scientists and doctor, so they should not be just tossed away like they are nothing. These theories and research/information aadd to the knowledge of the Bulgars and add information which can help in resolving the matter of the origins or make it more clear and understandable – what then is so bad about it. From the fact that Jingiby uses relatively rude edit comments and accusations and from the fact he never, ever, discusses anything or has arguments etc and still continues to claim that the sources are invalid and that the edits are POV – one may then conclude that Jingiby is strongly biased and really against any other knowledge or theories, and that he is unconstructive with the page and ingores wiki rules on sources– even if this knowledge or information is associated with credible people and institutions and even if it is reliably sourced. It is unconstructive and bad to only keep very streamlined, one sided information on a page when other information exists with reliable sources – this may, in effect, influence readers’ opinions in an erroneous and incomplete way. I have written all that I said above in regard to the situation that is going on about the editing and removal as such, with the purpose of resolving this matter. This would have been a forum if I only talked about the Bulgars without discussing edits, problems with the article and POV etc – in other words if I only discussed the Bulgars and wrote stuff such as how bad or great they were, asking opinions about them from other people and that kind of stuff; but instead I have discussed problems about the edits, and about Jingiby – which relates to the problem of the edits and issues about improving the article. Now I would have understood Jingiby if my edits were original research and my opinion and purely made up by me, without any sources whatsoever, but it is in effect real research and information with real sources. The very fact that Jingiby does not want to discuss the matter signifies that he is not willing to behave in a suitable, proper and good manner and that he is not a good editor, going towards the path of perhaps vandalism and disruptive behavior. Also take a look at my edit comments. Jingiby also does not seem to be sure of what POV is and, for example, what the difference between POV and vandalism is - that could cloud his judgement in removing edits - you can see that here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Spartacus&diff=prev&oldid=461120234 - this is clearly not POV but vandalism. I think it's about time for this issue tog et resoloved Smart Nomad (talk) 14:11, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a forum. You need University publishing houses unbiased sources. Bulgarian IT news are a joke. Jingiby (talk) 14:47, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Smart Nomad, your sources are not reliable (and see also WP:RSMED). Your edits contain a significant amount of original research and editorializing, e.g. "Pamir mountains (this region is linked to the Iranian theory)". That huge paragraph is particularly problematic and Jingby is correct to label it as "blatant POV". Since Slavyan Stoilov's expertise is in medicine (genetics), his opinions on the "striking similarity of agriculture, folklore and linguistics", "religion, architecture", "culture and the way of life " are irrelevant. The sources are news, and not reliable scholarly studies. See for this example this volume on Pliska - nothing about Zoroastrianism and all the other "Iranian" stuff.

Please stop the edit warring. If you break the WP:3RR rule you may be reported and temporarily blocked. Please discuss your changes on this talk page and work on a well written and well sourced text. Daizus (talk) 14:49, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry but I completely disagree - I take it you havent properly read what I said - if only the Turkic theory is represented without other sourced information, then that would be POV. My sources are in accordance to wiki rules. How for example you consider mine to be not but sources such as kroraina.com are? I have cleaned my edit to make it better. Jingiby is in no way correct to label it as POV - that is where you are wrong. I have removed the culture and way of life since my edit 2 edits ago but I take you havent seen it. There is a source on the Zoroastrian stuff somewhere else in the article - go and read it. If we are to remove newspaper sources then thousands of sources from numerous article will be missing - that is ridiculous. Also by saying the source is not reliable you are implying that the professor never said the words he did and that the Tangra expedition never took place - do you think those things would be placed in a major newspaper (Novinite.com is major) if they didnt happen? If you have a problem with that then I suggest you contact Bulgaria and the relevant people and check that it really happened. Also it is against wiki policy to never discuss anything and remove things without discussions, so why then do you "repremand" me but not Jingiby - that is just not acceptable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smart Nomad (talk • contribs) 15:19, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

@Jingiby - who says I need strictly academic sources - for example kroina is not academic and barely has sources - so are you a hypocrite? Also it is your opinion/POV that the sources are biased. Other sourced, in addition to university publishing sources, are also allowed - before you repeat yourself again, please go read wiki rules - if only university sources were allowed than kroina.com and numerous other sources - thousands, across wikipedia will not be allowed, and that is not true. Can you please repeating over and over that wikipedia is not a forum - everyone is well aware of that. I suggest that you go read what a discussion page should be used for in the wiki rules as it sounds like you dont know - discussion pages in wikipedia are used to discuss edits and issues with article - that is what I am doing, while you are doing nothing except repeating that my sources are invalid and that it is not a forum. Secondly it is your opinion, in other words POV that Bulgarian news is a joke - are you aware that Novinite.com is a major news provider and is international? Also it is not an IT site, it is a news site - IT is information technology - do you know that? Yet again you do not discuss properly. I suggest you go read on proper user procedures on wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smart Nomad (talk • contribs) 15:37, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

@DaziusI have discussed more on the talk page. I cleaned my edits, before you mentioned the culture stuff and removed it. My sources are reliable. See: http://www.library.cornell.edu/resrch/citmanage/mla - even universities allow to cite newspapers - is wikipedia any different?

Where does it say here that my sources are not valid - that major newspapers are not valid? Please point it out

This is the wiki rule which you used in your argument:

Shortcut: WP:RSOPINION

Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact without an inline qualifier like "(Author) says...". A prime example of this is Op-ed columns in mainstream newspapers. When using them, it is better to explicitly attribute such material in the text to the author to make it clear to the reader that they are reading an opinion. Note that otherwise reliable news sources—for example, the website of a major news organization—that publish in a "blog" style format for some or all of its content may be as reliable as if published in a more "traditional" 20th-century format.

There is an important exception to sourcing statements of fact or opinion: Never use self-published books, zines, websites, webforums, blogs and tweets as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the biographical material. "Self-published blogs" in this context refers to personal and group blogs; see WP:BLP#Reliable sources and WP:BLP#Using the subject as a self-published source

>>>I never asserted anything as fact and always use the words "may" etc. I only said what the the researchers said.

RegardsSmart Nomad (talk) 15:28, 19 November 2011 (UTC).

From WP:RSMED: "The popular press is generally not a reliable source for scientific and medical information in articles." and "A news article should therefore not be used as a sole source for a medical fact or figure." Daizus (talk) 15:50, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I disagree yet again, this is not strictly medical - it has to do with genetics and history. The way they mean it in the rule is if you write things about pure medicine and science. Your argument here is not valid as the heading of the rule is: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) - it says medicine and these edits are not about medicine Im saying it again - if you don't believe that the research happened then contact the relevant people in the country - that would be your job not mine, since you are contesting the claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smart Nomad (talk • contribs) 15:57, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

You're wrong, it's your job to prove your claims. It's your job to find scholarly studies authored by Slavyan Stoilov and accurately present their results. And of course this is about medicine - this is also the author's academic expertise. Anything else should be avoided anyway, because he is not a historian or an archaeologist.

As for Zoroastrism, that is a case of undue weight in that section. Dimitrov argued on Turkic-Iranic religious syncretism in Danube Bulgaria writing that: "In its first capital Pliska, the residence of the Bulgarian rulers, there is a similar building - two entered one into another squares of ashlars. A second, much larger building, oriented towards the sunrise, was excavated near the Throne palace in Pliska. Its religious utilization is confirmed by the fact that after the adoption of Christianity the building was transformed into a Christian church (the so called Palace church)". But checking the other scholars we find that this church was built in 870s and it was of "early Byzantine design" [1] (so Zoroastrian religious buildings were not the only ones facing the sunrise). Or that [2] "Bulgarian archaeologists commonly view this building [the inner rectangular enclosure] as a pagan temple dated to the first half of the ninth century, and use it as a point of reference for the definition of a special type of Bulgar sacral architecture." However it is "possible to interpret the first building phase as a church as well". Daizus (talk) 16:25, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I think much of the debate here, and in professional circles, stems form the fact that people assume that "Turkic" and "Iranic" were compact groups with defined and mutually exclusive language, culture, religion, etc. This is simply not the case. If we are going to use the terms Turkic, etc, then we must specify the use to language, because, the only "Turks" in the 6th century were the GokTurks, who were enemies of the Bulgars Slovenski Volk (talk) 10:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Bulgars were mixed people. Neither Turkic, nor Indo-European. Due to the lack of definitive evidence, a modern scholarship instead uses an ethnogenesis approach in explaining the Bulgars' origin. Jingiby (talk) 15:27, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

random break

come on people the matter is simpler than that, bulgars were a Turkic people around 1000 years ago but getting in contact with romans and converting to christianity and also fallin to enmity with ottoman turks caused them to get assimilated with other people living in balkans. i hope hates get forgotten and friendship and loyality comes in place! :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.164.109.39 (talk) 17:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Karachanak et al, "Bulgarians vs the other European populations: a mitochondrial DNA perspective" (2011) write on p. 2: "Today, there is, however, increasing historical and linguistic evidence suggesting that the contribution from Proto-Bulgarians might have been instead substantial. The first settlement of Proto-Bulgarians was possibly located in the foothills of Pamir and Hindu Kush." This may well be so, but they provide no genetic evidence in their study to endorse such conclusions, and as they are all neither historians nor linguistics (but from Department of Medical Genetics within the Medical University of Sofia and other similar institutions from Bulgaria and Italy), they cannot be considered reliable sources. Daizus (talk) 08:45, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually they do provide genetic evidence - they state that a certain contribution could very well come from the Bulgars, go read it again, I even gave the pages - 2-7. They dont have to be linguists or whatever to write about history, check the sources they used at the bottom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smart Nomad (talk • contribs) 08:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually they do not. They only mention an "Eastern contribution" but they do claim it comes from Pamir or Hindu Kush, nor that it came mainly in the Early Middle Ages. As for bibliography, it is made out of dubious materials such as a book on Pamir Bulgarians authored by de:Hanswilhelm Haefs. Similarly dubious are the materials authored by Peter Dobrev (not a linguist!) as he finds in the language of Proto-Bulgarians words from Pamir languages, but also from Mesopotamia (Sumerian, Akkadian). Daizus (talk) 09:18, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

the cause of bulgar's assimilation to non Turkic language was their conversion to christianity, unfortunately their hatered toward ottomans is causing them deny their history.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.164.123.37 (talk) 21:41, 28 November 2011 (UTC) 

Whilst there is good evidence that the Bulgars spoke Oghuric (NB this is different to Turkic propper), there is no evidence they came from the Pamirs or anywhere further east than the Ponto-Caucasus region. Slovenski Volk (talk) 22:17, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

This is a serious topic of 7th-century history. Please take the ethnic, racial and genetic bickering elsewhere. This article should focus on the 5th to 7th centuries. Anything that happened after the 7th century can safely be delegated to either Volga Bulgaria or to First Bulgarian Empire. --dab (𒁳) 12:17, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Bulgars

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Bulgars's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Pohl":

• From Huns: Walter Pohl. 1999. Huns. Late Antiquity: a guide to the postclassical world, ed. Glen Warren Bowersock, Peter Robert Lamont Brown, Oleg Grabar. Harvard University Press. pp.501-502
• From Literary sources for the origin of the Romanians: Pohl, Walter. Telling the difference: Signs of Ethnic Identity.
• From Eurasian Avars: Walter Pohl (1999), "Huns" in Late Antiquity, editor Peter Brown, p.501-502 .. further references to F.H Bauml and M. Birnbaum, eds., Attila: The Man and His Image (1993). Peter Heather, "The Huns and the End of the Roman Empire in Western Europe," English Historical Review 90 (1995):4-41. Peter Heather, The Fall of the Roman Empire (2005). Otto Maenchen-Helfen, The World of the Huns (1973). E. de la Vaissière, "Huns et Xiongnu", Central Asiatic Journal, 2005-1 pp. 3-26

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 18:50, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Bulgars are Iranians from Kingdom of Balhara

"...they didn't know the name of Christ, and with their Scythian ignorance they were serving the Sun, the Moon and the other Stars." Teofilakt Ohridski describing the Bulgars

"In the second century A.D., the Bulgars came to Europe from their old homeland, the Kingdom of Balhara situated in the Mount Imeon area (present Hindu Kush in northern Afghanistan)." http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3236.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.255.198.95 (talk) 11:00, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

The poetry is beautiful, but the issue of Iranian, Turkic, etc has been dealt with ad nauseaum. Slovenski Volk (talk) 09:29, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

thesis is based on articles Turks racist