Talk:Bowling

Lots of problems with this page

Moved to top for importance 11/8/07 Tigreye007 14:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Not sure why this is a "B"-rated article, since there are no citations, and there seems to be a lot of gaps or misinformation.

If you agree with any items from the list below, feel free to make the changes to the article as you see fit and cross them off. I don't want to make some of these changes without someone seconding them.

Problems I've encountered:

• This may be a geographical issue, however I believe "Xtreme Bowling" is AMF's proprietary term for the generic "Moonlight Bowling" (as is called in U.S.-Wisconsin/Midwest). The Nitro, Disco, and Cosmic bowling also have the same feel of a specific bowling alley's proprietary name for this type of bowling. Glow bowling is a valid generic name for this type of bowling and should be left. Also, should these 10-pin variations be moved to ten-pin bowling, since this type of bowling is in fact a form of 10-pin bowling?
• Search for "No of pins" - is this a fragment or unfinished sentence/list?
• "Rules and terminology" should be capitalized as a title, and I don't feel it belongs under "Forms" as a subheading.
• "Rules and terminology" should have links to the appropriate sections of the specific forms of bowling, i.e. "ten-pin bowling rules and terminology". Right now there are scattered rules on ten-pin bowling below it. Either should be changed as mentioned or removed altogether.
• Somehow make mention that this is a disambiguation of bowling. I came here and started reading the page thinking the article was intended for 10-pin bowling, when in fact most of that content is here. I'm wondering if that's why people keep adding and re-adding content that isn't intended for the generalized article Bowling.
• Rename the "Forms" section to "Variations"?
• Add subheadings of "Indoor" and "Outdoor", or "Indoor Variations" and "Outdoor Variations"

Tigreye007 20:22, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

oops! --GranTurismo2 00:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

History

I heard that the reason there is ten pins is because nine pin bowling was outlawed in many colonies due to gambling and such. well, this displeased most practitioners of the sport, but a large loophole was found: throw in another pin and it is no longer nine pins, but ten pins, making it therefore legal.

History Question*** What are the ref. to the statement that bowling originated in Finland and Yemen? Thank you. Mazighe 09:29, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

ten-pin bowling technology subsection

The very long essay on the evolution of bowling technology seems to me more appropriately found either at Ten-pin bowling or on a page of its own; thoughts?

Zack 00:35, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree, it seems to unbalance the rest of the article. It should still be mentioned in this article though. Jono 04:22, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well...The article is long, and discusses issues that would generally be outside the confines of a "general" article about bowling. Additionally, the article contains many false or misleading statements. When I have more time, I will attempt to edit it. One minor problem: the U.S. Open, PBA World Championship, and PBA Tournament of Champions do not use "sport bowling" lane conditions. --MMan710 17:51, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

For the hell of it, I looked up "sport" after reading "There is disagreement over whether bowling should be regarded as a sport." Sure enough, bowling is easily classifiable as a sport (alongside darts, perhaps) according to that page. This is a good example of disagreement between wikipedia pages.

--DEL

I really enjoy bowling but yet it gets me mad as hec when i miss all the pins. Well who cares it just a sport right? Ciara from Califonia.72.132.129.101 20:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)Ciara==Is bowling a sport?== I never knew that there was any debate about whether or not bowling was a sport before reading this article. Facts&moreFacts 22:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

--MMan710 19:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Consider that until very recently, the typical format of a PBA Tour tournament consisted of:

• Morning of Day1 (usually Wednesday) - six games of qualifying, changing lanes between games
• Evening of Day1 - six games of qualifying
• Morning of Day2 - six games of qualifying
• Cut to the top 24 scorers
• Evening of Day2 - eight games of head-to-head match play
• Morning of Day3 - eight games of head-to-head match play
• Evening of Day3 - eight games of head-to-head match play
• Cut to the top 5 scorers
• Saturday TV show.

This is forty-two games in three days, not including the TV show. For anyone to not consider this to be a significant physical and mental challenge, well they are simply ignorant. Surely, at the top level, bowling is a great sport! Irish Pat 21:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I think bowling is to sport as video games is to art, that is to say, the answer will vary by generation and by those who play and those who don't, and those who dedicate themselves to it. maybe the last sentence needs to reflect this? btw, videogames are totally art, even something as simple as frogger is art. like warhold and his blurred line between comercial and consumer and high art, etc. but that's me.

By what definition of sport is bowling not a sport? I don't think this section needs to be there. This is what the sports article says about sports:

A sport consists of a physical and mentally competitive activity carried out with a recreational purpose for competition, for self-enjoyment, to attain excellence, for the development of a skill, or some combination of these. A sport has physical activity, side by side competition, self-motivation and a scoring system.

Who has argued it is not a sport? Is there a citation to a reputable source claiming it is not a sport? Unless cogent arguements are given to the contrary I will remove this section tommorow. HighInBC 21:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Why are there bowling shoes?

As the heading indicates, someone explain this.

The reason there are bowling shoes is because proper delivery of a bowling ball requires an approach to the lane (usually 4 or 5 steps), which requires sliding at the end (for a right hander, you slide on your left foot). If a skilled bowler were to take a normal approach wearing a normal shoe or sneaker, they would not slide, and their forward momentum would cause them to fall (and hurt themselves).

The reason why bowling proprietors require normal people to wear bowling shoes is because even if you are delivering the ball by walking slowly up to the lane, the forward movement of throwing the ball will make you slide. If you wear regular shoes, you may stick and fall.

Additionally, since regular shoes can scuff the lanes or deposit dirt on the lanes, it can cause other bowlers to slide improperly and hurt themselves.

Bowling shoes are made with special soles that enable you to slide. While shoes you rent have sliding soles on each foot, shoes bought for the personal use of serious bowlers have different soles (the major brands of bowling shoes include Dexter and Linds). For a right hander, the left foot sole is made to encourage sliding, whereas the right foot is made of materials intended to allow your foot to grip the floor better for greater traction. I hope this answers your question. --MMan710 17:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

This should be mentioned in the article. I think that bowling ball technology itself is sufficiently complex that it needs its own article. There is a lot more stuff (bowling ball bags, shoes, resin, wrist stabilizers, etc.) that can be listed under this article's 'technology' heading. - IstvanWolf 22:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The bowling ball technology section also has several problems and inaccuracies, with some poorly written sections (like the sentence you removed). When I have more time I plan to edit it and remove them. --MMan710 19:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm left-handed and I have normal dexter bowling shoes, both have sliding soles. Hm, I think they are making i for both right and left handed bowlers. -Frankyboy5

It seems like somebody has deleted the part about the bowling shoes off. If the section about bowling shoes has been taken off, why does "bowling shoes" still redirect here? I am going to get rid of the redirect. If somebody specifically searches "bowling shoes" they aren't going to be looking for terminology about bowling or the history.PhorkPhace 23:13, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed Sections/Sentences

I am not an expert at this wiki thing, but I noticed that the pins are labeled as penis's in the first paragraph of the wiki page. I figured Id let people know it was there, although I am reluctant to change it because I can not be 100 percent sure its not called that somewhere else.

I removed the following, as the latter part is un-encyclopedic and the whole thing is pretty much self-evident (in what real-life example do people with money *not* buy the most advanced gadgets for use in whatever pursuits they are engaged?): "Many advanced bowlers frequently buy new, improved bowling balls to try to obtain an advantage over their opponents, and all have access, at least as far as their bank accounts can go." - IstvanWolf 22:57, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed a paragraph, recently added, from the very problematic "Ball Technology" section. The section as a whole is poorly written, with content of questionable substantive content. The information about 15 to 16 pound balls is VERY questionable. While many professionals have gone to 15 pound equipment, it is because newer ball technology is more powerful, thus one sacrifices less power by switching to the lower ball weight. While this information would be useful if added, the current section was so problematic, it is better deleted than there. --MMan710 05:18, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Ten-pin bowling peer review

The article Ten-pin bowling is currently undergoing a peer review to bring it up to featured article status. As others who are interested in bowling, I invite you to leave your comments--Danaman5 04:04, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Reactive resins

I read somewhere about how some compound called "reactive resins" has really changed the game recently...but no mention of it here?--Hooperbloob 07:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Seymour Butts?

I don't know who invented bowling, but I doubt it was him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.252.103.111 (talk) 02:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC).

I doubt it too. Thanks for that. Alex43223 ^{Talk | Contribs | E-mail | C} 04:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Even I, a rather gullible person, have my doubts about this Mearnhardtfan 05:37, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

"2 handed technique": Information removed from article.

Many bowlers in this new era have begun to adopt the 2 handed technique in order to maximize pin action. Pro bowlers Jeff Leiber and John Hopkins have revolutionized this new style sighting a noticable increase in ball speed and acuracy. PBA rules state as long as 2 fingers are in the holes, a second hand is allowed. Traditional one handed style is still used by most of the PBA field.

I removed this information from the article. At the very least, it did not belong where it was. It also lacked citation and struck me as irrelevant. But perhaps this information is appropriate for this article, which is why I've moved it here. If the original contributor (User:Kwd357) wishes to replace it, I ask that it at least be placed somewhere more appropriate than in the lead-in paragraph. TaintedMustard 03:12, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Terminology for sets of consecutive strikes?

This section of the article contains terminology which I, a long time league bowler, have never heard. Perhaps the terminology is different in certain parts of the world, but here in Connecticut, I've always heard the terms like this: strike, double, turkey, 4-bagger, 5-bagger, 6-bagger, 7-bagger, 8-bagger, 9-bagger, 10-bagger, 11-bagger, perfect game.

I'm not asking for the article to be changed, not if the terms in the article are those generally used in most areas. But I have never heard these terms before. I'm curious to see if anyone else has heard the terms I've listed, and what part of the world the terms in the article are used in. Any thoughts? Regards!

Would the scoring system animations calling the strikes beyond turkeys as "*-baggers'" be reliable enough? ViperSnake151  Talk  21:49, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The scoring systems around here are not all alike on calling strike strings anything, either. Even among the same version of the same manufacturer's system. The simple fact is that "-Baggers" and "-Pack" and such are interchangable on an international level.

Asked USBC (US governing body, and basically international governing body of ten pin) and they informed me there's no formal nick-name for any string of strikes, other than "-in a row". Complicating matters is the PBA, who's announcers called things somewhat randomly for a couple of years when they were trying to drum up interest on ESPN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.149.215 (talk) 06:12, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Bowling Shoes

Bowling Shoes redirects here, but there's not a mention of them or shoes in general on here. What's up with that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.210.249.8 (talk) 16:22, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Strikes and Spares?

Hi! I came to the page to look up the terms "Strike" and "Spare" but found that no definition is given. Not everyone is familiar with bowling (such as me). I was unable to determine what a strike and spare is after having read this article. From a clueless point of view, I assume that a strike means that all pins are hit and a spare that no pin is hit - but this is just a guess. Assuming I guessed right, I still do not understand what the difference between a spare and a gutter ball is. Again I guess the gutter is the indentation to the left and right. Does that mean that every gutter ball is a spare? Is it called a strike when using the first ball or just when clearing all pins (with both throws and/or the last one?) etc... I think the article needs to introduce and explain these and possibly further terms. Thank you! Phalphalak^Talk 20:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Lol! A strike is when all the pins are hit first time with first ball .,, you are right. A spare means all pins are hit,,, but takes two turns to do it(clearing all pins). A gutter ball is when the ball is knocked into a 'gutter' and no pins are hit. i guess it seems obvious to people familar with bowling (like me),It explains these terms in the article 'ten pin bowling' --78.149.214.70 (talk) 13:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Missing key info

no info on how to keep score. really bad omission. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.29.216.190 (talk) 09:58, 6 December 2007 (UTC) If you don't get a 300, it's not a perfect game! A strike a way is called a 279. But 5 strikes in a row is a wopper and then a six is a six pack. Also Andy's favorite sport! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.229.80.127 (talk) 00:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

FYI, a strike away can be just about any high 200's score - all depends on where the strike was missed.

Kenneth er syg til bowling!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.116.18.100 (talk) 10:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

'Sport' or 'Game'?

This page seems to attract a lot of (dueling banjo) editing of whether it's a 'sport' or 'game'?

Can we get a consensus so that it's settled? David Unit (talk) 20:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Sport, assuming you want some sort of vote. I say sport because it has the traditional defining feature that distinguishes a sport from a game. Namely, it requires physical skill. Chess, for example, is not a sport because even a quadriplegic can be Grandmaster. Smw543 (talk) 05:33, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Sport, I also say sport. Bowling well consistantly does take an amount of physical ability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bktrey (talk • contribs) 22:51, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Sport - for the above reasons -- physical coordination, effort, and skill are necessary.-Sarfa (talk) 20:13, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Bowling is most certainly a sport!!! Yes, it takes a lot of coordination, effort and skill without a doubt as the above post says. However, it takes a lot more then that to actually become good at it. The amount of time and money that can go into this sport is endless. Decent, reactive bowling balls that are worth buying can cost anywhere from $100.00- $300.00!! Speaking from experience, it becomes very expensive. That also doesn't include paying for lane time to go and practice. Most professional bowlers bowl anywhere from 8-16 or more games in a day, and that is just during competition, not even including practice! In addition to this, an understanding of geometry, oil patterns on the lane, and mental toughness is also necessary. The beauty of bowling however, is that anyone can do it, and at any skill level. This is probably where the question of it being a sport comes from. Most people do not view it as such because they do not take the time, money and effort to become competitive at it. It is just a fun thing to do on a rainy day. Go watch the professional tour for a week, and then say it's not a sport!! --jenviens

Bowling is either a sport or a game. Depends on the bowler.

Merge

I think Bowling terms should either be merged with Bowling or moved to List of Bowling terms. Please let me know what you guys think. OverSeer (talk) 00:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree that something should be done with the Bowling terms article. If we do merge, I think it should be merged to the section on terms in ten-pin bowling rather than to this article. Another option would be to move the terms from the ten-pin article into the bowling terms article.Twinkie eater91 (talk) 12:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree it should be merged. Cleanup and expanding it would also be in order. I'd be interested in seeing a reference to "dirty game" being originated with an Illinois high school student, Dutch game and sandwich game seem to refer to the same thing, etc. Right now there just isn't much there to justify it's own article.Wolfhound668 (talk) 18:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

"===Bowling Allies of the late 1950’s and early 1960’s," Allies should be Alleys. User: TygrHawk (talk) 16:45, 5 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TygrHawk (talk • contribs)

I agree with Twinkie eater on moving "Bowling" to "Ten-pin Bowling". I put up a merge sign because it duplicates an existing topic, even though it's been around for a while. Minimac94 (talk) 19:00, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Strong Oppose to Merging Bowling into ten-pin bowling, for various reason including my big reason not to merge is the focus of the 2 articles. The Article about Bowling Covers all types of Bowling not just 10 Pin, Doing so would create a Systemic bias of the topic on hand. Also the Current size of the Ten-pin Bowling article is at over 80 KB doing such a merge will make the article easily over 90 KB and a far worse in violation of WP:SIZE in fact the Ten-pin Bowling article should probably be split off and the merge of Bowling terms should probably be undone or resplit. Gotta remember Ten-pin Bowling is not the only type of Bowling around and therefore for that big reason I am against this merge proposal. Sawblade5 ^{(talk to me | my wiki life)} 05:44, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Oppose, largely for the same reasons stated by Sawblade5. Additionally, while I can appreciate the idea behind the merge, combining 10-pin with the broader "bowling" would result in readability and structural issues. Jeff Bedford (talk) 01:46, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Oppose; I'm just a random IP, but even I can see merging with a 'ten-pin bowling' would be stupid; for the same reason 'Football' should not be merged with 'Association Football' (despite it being by far the most popular version of 'football'). In fact the problem with the article is actually that the article is far too biased towards American tenpin bowling; effectively ignoring the centuries of history of bowling sports and then concentrating on the only decades old and more localised 10-pin version. This article should start with the old European games like Bocce and Petanque and move towards the more recent stuff - by rights ten pin should be a small section at the bottom, not dominating the entire article. The comments below titled "Worldwide" and "Why is this almost completely unrelated from the "Bowls" article?" are spot on about it.86.182.8.187 (talk) 16:17, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Grease 2 reference?

There's nothing on how the movie, Grease 2, helped bring the sport out of its 1970's-80's decline. Maybe a brief reference in the history section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.60.197.203 (talk) 03:23, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

That sounds interesting. I don't know if it's true but I think it's worthy of being included if a reliable source can be found.--Victoria h (talk) 05:04, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

bowling is a sport

WHY DO THEY HAVE IT ON TSN? ROFL —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.129.49 (talk) 16:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Worldwide

Many parts of the word "bowling" means lawn bowling. I think this usage should reflect that rather than assume it means ten-pin or five-pin. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Why is this almost completely unrelated from the "Bowls" article?

I only found the relation via my own diligence. kind of embarrasing. Don't defend yourselves, just correct it. 71.131.186.156 (talk) 03:12, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Ball Release and Delivery Styles

Wanted to add a section on the main page about different types of ball releases and delivery styles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rvooo91 (talk • contribs) 22:59, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

1.1 Bowling alleys development

This information seems oddly specific for such a general article. Also, the lead in about the development of bowling alleys being important in the 1960s seems like a rather flimsy excuse for the next four paragraphs about Louis Lesser. This seems like a thinly veiled case of inserting a biography or perhaps an autobiography into a page where it clearly doesn't belong. Is it hero worship or self promotion? Since it was created by a mere IP address, it's hard to tell.

Also, it is seriously inconsistent, it says, in reference to bowling alleys " some of which cost tens of millions of dollars (in 1960s dollars)" yet the most expensive one mentioned cost only two million in 1960s dollars! Did the writer actually mean "in 2011 dollars" or "when adjusted for inflation"?

Someone who actually cares about the integrity of this article should evaluate where this section belongs in it at all! 3Dham 04:07, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

To elaborate a bit further, most people have never heard of Louis Lesser and certainly wouldn't associate him with bowling. Why should he even be mentioned in this article, let along have four paragraphs dedicated to him? There is no mention about famous bowlers such as Earl Anthony or Mark Roth or other people who are associated with bowling, so why bring up such an obscure figure who isn't even associated with the subject? John Elson★3Dham★ WF6I A.P.O.I. 06:28, 6 January 2012 (UTC)