Talk:Murray Rothbard

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"is considered by some to be"

Since this has been reverted a few times, just to be nitpicky, technically the sources says Rothbard IS the Dean. However, obviously LewRockwell.com is a bit biased, so either it should be noted as "LewRockwell.Com describes Rothbard as" or left as the non-referenced but more accurate "is considered by some to be." I'm happy to leave it as it is but if others want to debate the merits. CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Rothbard on race

To counter the now deleted quotes from the Salon piece I put together a better overview of Rothbard's views on race. The Salon piece is based on material from The New Republic and Reason which was contested by Raimondo and others at the time. So those should be the source of any criticism and response not the second hand Salon piece. CarolMooreDC (talk) 04:25, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I removed the Salon refs because Rothbard was quoted, but no source was given for the quotes. The overall tone of the piece is troubling, as well, with everything directed toward proving Rothbard was a racist, and that, by extension, his allies are as well. The information you added is better sourced, Carol. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 04:43, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the Reason article again on the controversial Ron Paul newsletters which is widely ref'd lately, I remembered - OOPS! - I was quoted in it. Some short reference to this angry period of Rothbard's life probably should be mentioned so it doesn't look like a coverup. CarolMooreDC (talk) 02:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Wrong impression about Rothbard's views

Language at two places gives the wrong impression.

"Rothbard advocated minimum coercive government control of the economy." 'Minimum' is euphemistic. Rothbard opposed government tooth-and-nail. "Priding himself on his radicalism, he used to brag that if there were a button one could push that would sweep away all vestiges of government in an instant, he would break his thumb pushing it." http://www.libertariannation.org/a/f23l1.html How about: Rothbard advocated abolition of governments.

"Rothbard concluded that virtually all services provided by monopoly governments could be provided more efficiently by the private sector." 'Virtually' is against Rothbard's philosophy. Rothbard is one of the few libertarians who don't see any place for governments at all. The 'virtually', at least, should be deleted.

The State, then, is not simply a part of society. The brunt of this part of the present volume, in fact, is to demonstrate that the State is not, as most utilitarian free-market economists like to think, a legitimate social institution that tends to be bumbling and inefficient in most of its activities. On the contrary, the State is an inherently illegitimate institution of organized aggression, of organized and regularized crime against the persons and properties of its subjects. Rather than necessary to society, it is a profoundly antisocial institution which lives parasitically off of the productive activities of private citizens. Morally, it must be considered as illegitimate and outside of the ordinary libertarian legal system, which delimits and insures the rights and just properties of private citizens. Thus, from the point of view of justice and morality, the State can own no property, require no obedience, enforce no contracts made with it, and indeed, cannot exist at all. The Ethics of Liberty, Murray N. Rothbard, New York University Press, 1982, 1998; pp. 187

115.242.216.161 (talk) 15:37, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I plan to replace `minimum' by `removal of' and remove `virtually', in the two sentences respectively. Any objections? 115.184.123.103 (talk) 06:22, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Good for you for catching it. Check out Libertarianism where some people are trying to delete any ref to libertarian anarchism. I just haven't had time or energy to come up with the MANY new refs for that topic. CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:58, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Made the two changes.115.184.17.128 (talk) 10:09, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Just FYI, I know the changes are right but I didn't really check to see if that's what the WP:RS say, meaning better WP:RS might be needed. Too many articles, too little time. CarolMooreDC (talk) 00:46, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Hello, no problem. Here is a collection of quotes from Rothbard. Please put proper references in the article too (when you get time to do so!).

• ["virtually all services":] All of this the libertarian denies: he sees the various apologia as fraudulent means of obtaining public support for the State’s rule, and he insists that whatever services the government actually performs could be supplied far more efficiently and far more morally by private and cooperative enterprise. [p. 32] For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto; Murray N. Rothbard; Revised Online edition, Ludwid von Mises Institute; 2002

• [role of State in the society:] But the critical difference between libertarians and other people is not in the area of private crime; the critical difference is their view of the role of the State—the government. For libertarians regard the State as the supreme, the eternal, the best organized aggressor against the persons and property of the mass of the public. All States everywhere, whether democratic, dictatorial, or monarchical, whether red, white, blue, or brown. [p. 54] For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto; Murray N. Rothbard; Revised Online edition, Ludwid von Mises Institute; 2002 (emphasis in the original)

• ["limited state":] Advocates of a limited government often hold up the ideal of a government above the fray, refraining from taking sides or throwing its weight around, an "umpire" arbitrating impartially between contending factions in society. Yet why should the government do so? Given the unchecked power of the State, the State and its rulers will act to maximize their power and wealth, and hence inexorably expand beyond the supposed "limits." The crucial point is that in the Utopia of limited government and laissez faire, there are no institutional mechanisms to keep the State limited. Surely the bloody record of States throughout history should have demonstrated that any power, once granted or acquired, will be used and therefore abused. Power corrupts, as the libertarian Lord Acton so wisely noted. Furthermore, apart from the absence of institutional mechanisms to keep the ultimate decision-maker and force-wielder "limited" to protection of rights, there is a grave inner contradiction inherent in the very ideal of a neutral or impartial State. ... [p. 211] The Ethics of Liberty; Murray N. Rothbard; New York University Press, New York and London; 1998 (all emphasis in the original)

• ["limited state", continued:] Finally there is a crucial inconsistency in the proferred criterion of laissez-faire itself: limiting the government to protection of person and property. For, if it is legitimate for a government to tax, why not tax its subjects to provide other goods and services that may be useful to consumers: why shouldn't the government, for example, build steel plants, provide shoes, dams, postal service, etc.? For each of these goods and services is useful to consumers. [p. 217] The Ethics of Liberty; Murray N. Rothbard; New York University Press, New York and London; 1998

• [relation to the State:] It means, for example, that no one is morally required to obey the State (except insofar as the State simply affirms the right of just private property against aggression). For, as a criminal organization with all of its income and assets derived from the crime of taxation, the State cannot possess any just property. This means that it cannot be unjust or immoral to fail to pay taxes to the State, to appropriate the property of the State (which is in the hands of aggressors), to refuse to obey State orders, or to break contracts with the State (since it cannot be unjust to break contracts with criminals). Morally, from the point of view of proper political philosophy, "stealing" from the State, for example, is removing property from criminal hands, is, in a sense, "homesteading" property, except that instead of homesteading unused land, the person is removing property from the criminal sector of society—a positive good. Here a partial exception can be made where the State has clearly stolen the property of a specific person.... [p. 218]The Ethics of Liberty; Murray N. Rothbard; New York University Press, New York and London; 1998 (emphasis in the original)

N6n (talk) 03:07, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

The reason I bring it up is because in libertarianism we've got these nutty minarchists who want to quote Rothbard as THE expert on why libertarianism has nothing to do with any kind of anarchism! So at some point they may drift over here. CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:49, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Rothbard the father of Libertarianism? really?

Even if we were to send to oblivion the fact that the French anarchist-communist Joseph Déjacque is credited with developing the idea of Libertarianism in the late 18 century, is it appropriate for an encyclopedia to use Rockwell's website to claim without attribution that Rothbard is "considered the founder of libertarianism"?

And more importantly, is www.lewrockwell.com a reliable website to use for this article? 198.22.236.230 (talk) 20:21, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Seems it could use better sourcing (or more nuance, given the obvious leanings of lewrockwell.com). An assertion that may need balancing viewpoints probably is not best placed in the opening sentence. BigK HeX (talk) 20:58, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Page 441 Hamowy's Encyclopedia of Libertarianism Rothbard article says Rothbard "was of central importance to the modern libertarian movement because of both his writing and scholarship and his personal outreach to young libertarians." This sounds like a good source. (Note: Sources pointing out he was often called "Mr. Libertarian". CarolMooreDC (talk) 01:34, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree that "important figure in the modern libertarian movement" or some such is probably less contentious. BigK HeX (talk) 18:09, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Carol what you posted is a far cry from Rothbard being considered "the father of Libertarianism". There's an evident difference between being associated with libertarian ideas and being credited as the "the founder" of them.

In my opinion, Rockewell's assertions merely reflect his affiliation with Rothbard and not a widely held view of him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.120.132.56 (talk) 16:31, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, my point was this was a WP:RS way of describing him instead of "father of Libertarianism." CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:02, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

It looks good. It should definitely differentiate between the American notion of libertarianism (ie; Anarcho-capitalism) and the classical (more widely embraced) European view of libertarianism. 198.22.236.230 (talk) 14:09, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

See Libertarianism article which has multiple refs on that topic, since worldwide libertarianism means both, usually pro-property in more mainstream sources; or both in sources that have a broader overview. CarolMooreDC (talk) 12:21, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposed intro

Murray N. Rothbard was the founder of anarcho-capitalism, a political philosophy he developed by synthesizing elements of the Austrian School of economics, individualist anarchism, non-interventionism and a revisionist history of the U.S. War of Independence, making him a central figure of the contemporary American libertarian movement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.145.152.95 (talk) 03:23, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Unless you can reference that particular synthesis, it isn't supported as an alternative to current lead. CarolMooreDC (talk) 04:48, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

"We must therefore conclude that we are not anarchists" -- Rothbard

I think this is worth pointing out.

Furthermore, we find that all of the current anarchists are irrational collectivists, and therefore at opposite poles from our position. We must therefore conclude that we are not anarchists, and that those who call us anarchists are not on firm etymological ground, and are being completely unhistorical. -- Murray N. Rothbard

Even Rothbard himself conceded that it was a horrible bastardization of language and history to call his beliefs 'anarchist' -- however valid or not they might be. Perhaps this is worth noting on this article or the article on anarchism? I don't think that wedging anti-state/laissez-faire capitalism into the anarchist camp without making a note of the circumstances is entirely honest. Finx (talk) 07:35, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

The article was written in the mid-1950s while his ideas were still developing and before he became an activist. So it's really only useable as a compare/contrast to other things he might have said later. I just don't remember off hand (except maybe during his paleolibertarianism stage) he spoke out against anarchism, as opposed to subsuming it under his own beliefs. CarolMooreDC 20:14, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't this seem like it's worth a mention? I mean, I'm no expert on Rothbard, but to me, it implies one of two things, either of which would be pretty revealing: either his posturing as an anarchist is put-on or his understanding of the word's substance and etymology shifted drastically later down the road. Finx (talk) 11:34, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

If you read the article section "Anarcho-capitalism" it begins: Rothbard began to consider himself a private property anarchist in the 1950s..." So evidently that was written before that point OR if one looks at the wide context of what he wrotes (and I haven't read the article) it means something a bit different than what the one sentence might indicate. Assuming the first, merely stating he originally rejected the term anarchist (long quote not really needed or put in footnote) and then continue with the statements that show he later adopted it would be relevant. People change their minds all the time - or redefine terms the way they want. He's been quite successful with that with anarcho-capitalism, which obviously pisses off a lot of left anarchists.

To provide an even more complete picture, it's not that difficult to do a books.google search of "Murray rothbard" AND Anarchist or web search of lewrockwell.com rothbard anarchist to find a variety of views by him and about him. It is an area that needs a bit more exploration, but just taking one sentence and throwing it in there is not of much use to the Wikipedia project. CarolMooreDC 16:20, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Rothbard on Rand and "Crony Capitalism"

Ayn Rand is widely regarded as having been a thorough critic of "crony capitalism," both in her novel, Atlas Shrugged and in her work on politics, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal -- calling it, famously, "the aristocracy of pull" (which is actually a section title in Atlas Shrugged). She explicitly attacked all railroad subsidies, for example, and the whole "pressure group warfare" associated with seeking political favors as such, throughout BOTH works. Rothbard is ignoring or forgetting or dissembling about the many portraits of evil businessmen in Rand's novel, much less the portraits showing them seeking political favors just as Rothbard's complaints describe Rand allegedly ignoring. Her followers have been consistent in their opposition to all bailouts and any form of corporate welfare. See, for example, [1] and [2] Rothbard's assault here is false, and so far as to be absurd. Indeed, Rand very much and very thoroughly beat him to the punch on this issue, despite his later accusations to the contrary, giving credence to Rand's claims of plagiarism (as his writing on free will, natural rights and some basic epistemology also shows so obviously). Rothbard has been repeatedly criticized for the dishonesty in his attack on Rand. Most importantly, this has nothing to do with the section topic, Rothbard's "anarcho-capitalism." The Rand criticisms in this section should simply be removed. Oolyons (talk) 23:50, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree it was pretty much irrelevant to that section, otherwise not aware of the details. The person who put it in could try to prove it was one of his major criticisms of her for that section, if they wanted. However, I have sourced and put back reference to "Mozart was a red" and a relevant pamphlet as not POV and entirely encyclopedic, as opposed to the vague phrase about becoming a critic. CarolMooreDC 04:09, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

As to the last, Rothbard "lampooned" Rand's circle, not his own "relationship with Rand." That wasn't covered at all. The cited pamphlet ("Sociology") has also been criticized as being "fictionalized" -- just like the play. It falsely alleged, for example, that Rand "excommunicated" those who differed with her musical taste. When such examples were pointed out to Rothbard himself, he recognized the essay to have been "fictionalized." See, The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics, p. 399-400, note 43, (Valliant, J., 2005.) So, I added that it, too, is "fictionalized," as Rothbard appears to have freely admitted. As such, it is also far from "encyclopedic." Also, the way the section reads, it suggests that Rand's influence terminated when he began to "lampoon" her -- Burns, the source you cite, says otherwise. Also, the cause of their break, as Burns describes it, was his anarchism. This should all be reworded. Oolyons (talk) 18:50, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, if you want to get into all this it is necessary to properly source it, and from more than one source. By properly source I mean link to a readable books.google link and, upon request, also quote what the author says, which I do request below.

• The larger context needs brief presentation: Rothbard hanging out with Rand in the early 1950s, not being impressed with her until Atlas Shrugged, and then being more involved with her until a series of incidents drove him out in whatever year. It's fair to point out what sources say Rand did vs. what "her circle" did in course of biography, but not to use the article as a forum to defend Rand vs Rothbard's criticisms. And the article should link to Mozart was a red and the pamphlet.
• Obviously the fact that people in Rand's circle wanted Joey Rothbard to renounce Christianity is a well known story that should be included (since this is a biography of Rothbard, not Rand). And then there is the alleged plagiarism issue discussed by those sources and Stromberg. You might have an opinion on every detail of who did what to whom; Rothbard, Justin Raimondo and Brian Dogherty will have their own versions. But this is not the place for detailing every back and forth of every Rand fan defending Rand, just mention the most salient points. People can check the various sources for more details if they want.
• This link gives an idea of what Burns says about anarchism, which I'm sure Rand didn't like, but it helps to quote exactly what she says was disputed when since these links don't make it clear.
• Your sentence Rothbard was introduced to both Aristotelian epistemology and the "whole field" of natural rights through his discussions with Rand is highly dubious. Your page 145 source does not seem to say that, please provide whole quote saying that. Your use of "Nonetheless" in prefacing this statement, which seems to be out of chronological order of Burns' presentation, looks like an attempt at WP:Original research opinionating. Moreover, other sources say Rothbard was familiar with these views and made fun of Rand for thinking she originated age old viewpoints, so I doubt that she introduced him to these ideas, though she may have influenced some of his intepretations of them.
• If you want to prove Rothbard or anyone else said it was a "Fictionalized" essay you have to quote exactly what is written in The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics, p. 399-400, note 43, (Valliant, J., 2005.). You can't say "as Rothbard appears to have freely admitted" which again is your own WP:OR
• Please don't allow your POV of defending Rand (including through the Mises quote I just removed) motivate you to distort what is written or the purpose of the article. If you think this is such an important topic start an article on Rand vs. Rothbard.

I'll make a less POV version with proper referencing. Please add proper referencing for fictionalized pamphlet when you get it. CarolMooreDC 21:04, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry for not quoting the source at length. However, with all due respect, I think you need to read that source more closely. as it says precisely what I claimed it did. It reads, verbatim:

"Through Rand Rothbard learned about Aristotelian epistemology and '[t]he whole field of natural rights and natural law philosophy, which he did not know existed.' ... Rothbard acknowledged that Rand had taught him something of value." Jennifer Burns, Goddess of the Market: Ayn Rand and the American Right (2005, Oxford Univ. Press), p. 145.

And Burns is here quoting merely Rothbard himself, see p. 221, note 31. This is more than enough, but should you require more, Barbara Branden also quotes Rothbard in her biography, The Passion of Ayn Rand (1986, Doubleday), p. 413, as follows:

"Murray Rothbard has stated that he 'is in agreement basically with all of her philosophy,' and that it was she who convinced him of the theory of natural rights which his books uphold."

Furthermore, both biographers recognize that Rand did not expel anyone from her circle for artistic matters, as Rothbard actually alleged in "Sociology." The "fictionalized" source reads as follows: "When [the author] asked him about it in 1982, Professor Rothbard himself told [Valliant] that his "Sociology of the Ayn Rand Cult" was 'highly fictionalized.' For example, no one was ever 'excommunicated' from Rand's circle for not liking the music of Rachmaninoff as Rand did. Rothbard was himself explicitly aware of the dishonesty of his attack." (The Passion of Ayn Rand's Critics, 2005 Durban House), pp. 399-400. Again, I have merely cited the source for precisely what it stated.

Also, I do not believe that we need to get into all of that other "break up" material at all. Burns biography, cited above, on page 183, indicates that a certain academic conference provided (and I quote verbatim): "the 'grounds for a bitter final break up between Rothbard and Rand's circle. Tensions had been building over Rothbard's stubborn allegiance to anarchism. After almost six months of regular contact Rand and the Collective expected Rothbard to be convinced that anarchism was unworkable. In July 1958 a special Saturday night session was scheduled for Rothbard and Rand to debate." Jennifer Burns, Goddess of the Market: Ayn Rand and the American Right, (2009, Oxford Univ. Press), p. 183. Instead of showing up, Rothbard realizing that he "hated [their] guts," and failed to show for the debate. While he was also accused of plagiarism, true, his anarchism was clearly the main issue and the one that made a relationship with Rand impossible, according to Burns.

Also, I was not attempting to "defend" Rand with the Mises quote, only trying to provide the context for Rothbard's and Reisman's involvement with Rand. It is a fact that Mises, their teacher, already knew Rand personally and admired Rand's novel, as the letter cited indicates, and it is through Mises that Rothbard's contacts first got him involved with Rand, according to Burns' biography, on page 144.

Finally, all the sources agree that Rothbard "made fun of Rand for thinking she originated age old viewpoints," but whether she was actually original or not is your own POV and his. The growing body of scholarship from Objectivist academics suggests that a great deal of what Rand thought was indeed original. See, for example, Tara Smith's recent book from Cambridge University Press, Ayn Rand's Normative Ethics: The Virtuous Egoist (2006), or Allan Gotthelf's work, among many others. Her ideas have formed the basis for far too many PhD dissertations lately for her ideas to have been unoriginal, frankly. Even the work of "neo-Objectivists," such as Tibor Machan is enough to show Rand's radical originality. In any case, Rothbard was defending himself from charges of plagiarism when he "ridiculed" Rand's alleged lack of originality, and his claims (and yours) are argument and POV. 72.199.110.160 (talk) 03:36, 14 February 2012 (UTC)