Talk:Crocodile

Geographical range

I came here looking for geographical info on crocodiles. Could someone please add a description of native and introduced wild crocodile geography? --Loqi (talk) 20:29, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Excessive use of nouns.

• In the Biology and Behavior section, the word "crocodile" is used at the beginning of every line. Excessive eh? --202.156.14.251 (talk) 01:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• You are free to copy-edit the article. Rodhullandemu 01:45, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• If the existing text states the meaning adequately, leave it alone. There is no point making the text hard to understand by "varying the expression" for its own sale. See Elegant variation for one tendency to avoid. Wikipedia is made of articles and is not the place for "best essay style". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Bite force

No bite force is provided. P/Square Inch and Standard Atmospheres are units of pressure, not force. It may sound like a technicality, but it's not. Avianmosquito (talk) 09:24, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

You're right, plus there's the effect of bite location - the muscle can generate a given force about the joint (therefore a given torque), and therefore position in the jaw matters a great deal (hence why we have molars at the back - large force for crushing). Unfortunately, I cannot find any peer-review papers on crocodile bite force (I get 13,000 N from a Ken Vliet paper on alligators). I heard a talk recently by someone who does have this data (forces at two points in the jaw) for a wide variety of species, but the paper isn't published yet. Mokele (talk) 18:06, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Why does it say in regards to crocodiles bite force " These jaws can bite down with immense force, by far the strongest bite of any animal. The pressure of the crocodile's bite is more than 5,000 pounds per square inch (30,000 kPa)"

When it also says on the Tasmanian Devil wikipedia page "An analysis of mammalian bite force relative to body size shows that the devil has the strongest bite of any living mammal, over 5,100 psi (35,000 kPa)"? (unsigned)

You're right, the Tasmanian devil force is completely wrong and flatly contradicted by the reference they cite for it. Mokele (talk) 02:23, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I believe the discrepancy would be due to the qualifier "of any living mammal" in the Tasmanian Devil quote. Dinferno (talk) 13:46, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Please change the pounds per inch to lbs of force for all of those bite forces. The 5000 figure comes from Brady Barr testing a Nile Croc's bite force with a load cell. Just so we're clear again, as stated before, pounds per square inch (PSI), is not the the same as lbs of force. The former has to do with force over area, which is pressure, the latter is just plain force. DinoJones (talk) 22:31, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Largest Crocodile- There is no evidence to suggest that the largest saltwater crocodile was indeed 28 feet long. There is only a replica of it and just one story to back it up which I kinda doubt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.83.100.52 (talk) 13:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Bite force 2

CAN SOMEONE LOOK AT THE FORCE OF BITE FOR A LARGE GREAT WHITE SHARK REFERENCED HERE COMPARED TO ON THE GREAT WHITE SHARK PAGE? IT'S DIFFERENT!!!66.192.23.85 (talk) 19:45, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Trimmed see also section

The see also section was rather long. Per WP:See also I've removed every link that is already made in the article. In particular, I don't see any reason to link to any particular species of crocodile there as we already have a list of crocodiles with appropriate links in the article. As there are many, we would need a good reason to link to only specific ones anyway. The Nile crocodile is I believe one of the most common, but that's already mentioned in the article (that why I believe it's the case) and that's the way it should be handled so the reader understands why it's of relevance. The article also discusses and links to Nile crocodile in several other instances, as would be natural if they are quite common. I've also removed Steve Irwin from the list. I'm personally not entirely sure whether it's of sufficient relevance at all, but in any case I see no reason to link both Crocodile Hunter and Steve Irwin in the article. IMHO the article on the show is of greater relevance so I've left that in. Nil Einne (talk) 11:49, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Rehabilitation of the Much-Vandalized Etymology Section

The Etymology section which I painstakingly researched and wrote in 2008 has suffered some erroneous mutations due to being repeatedly vandalized and repaired.

(Why is an article on crocodiles subjected to so much vandalism?? Get a life.)

For example, the Greek letter kappa should always be transliterated as 'k' not 'c' according to present-day academic conventions. (Though note 'c' is correct once a Greek word has been Latinized). Accents on the Greek transliterations have also suffered, and some other points.

I do recognize that our contributions to Wikipedia get altered by later editors -- but in this case you will see that none of the changes has been for the better.

You'll find my pristine original version in the article history at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crocodile&oldid=213450868

The source code of the entire Etymology section there should simply be cut and pasted into the current article.

Thank you. ~CrocodileCorrector

Add the article in albanian sq:Krokodili

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.109.82 (talk • contribs)

Done. Firsfron of Ronchester 13:30, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Longest crocodile ever?

I notice that under the 'Size' subheading there is discussion about the largest crocodile held in captivity, named Yai, measuring 19.69ft, held in Thailand. The article then mentions the largest crocodile ever captured alive, Lolong, measuring 20 ft 3 in, and held in the Philippines. I'd like to point out that Lolong is indeed in captivity and therefore holds both titles. This is confirmed on the reference used to verify the Lolong's size, it's also cited on Lolong's wikipedia page. --IkaInk (talk) 05:34, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I have calculated, with the help of software, the length of a crocodile killed in Northen Zimbabwe from a photo I have received, which measures about 24 feet (7.325m), which looks like to longest croc ever. I would be nice to verify this by actually go and measure the wall upon which it laid when the photo was taken.

Contact me at gert.dupreez@babcock.co.za to get the photo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.41.197.98 (talk) 09:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Very interesting, and certainly within the range of reports for wild crocodiles. However, to add this information, it needs to have a credible reference and cannot be your original work. (including a synthesis of taking a referenced photo and then applying your software to it to produce a number). Try to find a reference that concurs with you, and is credible. Jbower47 (talk) 17:41, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Dozens of villagers and experts ensnared a 20.1-foot (6.1-meter) male crocodile along a creek in Bunawan township in Agusan del Sur province after a three-week hunt. It could be one of the largest crocodiles to be captured alive in recent years. About 100 people had to pull the crocodile, which weighs about 2,370 pounds (1,075 kilograms), from the creek to a clearing where a crane lifted it into a truck. http://news.yahoo.com/giant-crocodile-captured-alive-philippines-134625838.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Korn1nut2fan3 (talk • contribs) 15:45, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I'll trust that length once an actual scientist measures it. Until then, it's little more than any other "big fish" story. Mokele (talk) 18:04, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

• It seems that the measurement of an 'actual politician' can't be trusted. Just in case, once National Geographic representatives have measured the crocodile, can we make a short description of it here? Or maybe, create an article about it if it's allowed. Thanks. PolicarpioM (talk) 05:34, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

If an 'actual politician' told me 2+2=4, I'd be compelled to go back and re-check all of basic math to make sure it wasn't all a lie. At any rate, The NG folks measurements should be fine, if they actually make any (the quality of their programming has been going steadily downhill). If they don't actually measure it (either digitally or physically), no dice. Mokele (talk) 14:57, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Lol. Nice one there. I'll wait for the actual measurement then by NatGeo. PolicarpioM (talk) 06:47, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Its too bad NatGeo is delaying in measuring this beast.. whats the hold up anyway? http://globalnation.inquirer.net/13593/guinness-natgeo-delay-visits-with-lolong-the-giant-croc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.83.15.53 (talk) 04:10, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

It's always best to take the side of prudence when it came to measurements but it's better to be bold when capturing a big crocodile. PolicarpioM (talk) 06:52, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• Hi Mokele and other crocodile experts. The National Geographic team led by Dr. Adam Britton has finally measured Lolong at 20 feet, three inches as reported in GMA News. I've made an edit to include this fact. Please feel free to discuss it here if you think the edit is still unacceptable. Thanks. PolicarpioM (talk) 06:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Can someone remove the statement about "Utan" at the size section? The source used for it actually states that Yai is recognized by Guinness. It says nothing whatsoever about Utan. The only people who state he's 20 feet are his keepers... --145.44.88.109 (talk) 12:14, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

• Hey, you're right. I'll delete Utan based on your observation. If other editors don't agree with the deletion, please state your reasons here. I'll delete Utan based on blatant promotion and questionable sources since it's promoting a crocodile tourist attraction based on a claim that is not supported by independent, reliable sources. Also, this is an exceptional claim that points to a reference describing "Yai" instead of "Utan". In short, the citation is misleading as well. PolicarpioM (talk) 05:45, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Lolong has a lenght of approximately "6.17" metres, not 6.096 like stated in this article. I'm apparantly not able to correct it myself as this article is locked to new users. --24.132.213.61 (talk) 15:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Issues and conflicting passages

In reading this section, I noticed a few issues and sections that seemed to have conflicting language.

1) Is crocodile, as opposed to crocodilian(s), really a common term for the general Order? I admit, my specialty is somewhat limited, having worked primarily with alligator mississipppiensis, but I had not previous heard the word "crocodile" used for anything except actual members of crocodylidae, whereas alligatoridae are (at least in my anecdotal experience and brief web search) referred to as crocodilians, not crocodiles. This wiki entry would seem to assert otherwise in some places, and then contradict itself in others.

In the lead, "The term can also be used more loosely to include all extant members of the order Crocodilia: i.e. the true crocodiles, the alligators and caimans (family Alligatoridae) and the gharials (family Gavialidae), as well as the Crocodylomorpha which includes prehistoric crocodile relatives and ancestors."

As opposed to the text from description, which states "Crocodiles are similar to alligators and caiman; for their common biology and differences between them, see Crocodilia."

As the rest of this article referes specifically to crocodylidae, I'd recommend removing the line from the lead about referring to the whole order, unless someone can cite a good reference for that. Or at least reword it to refer to crocodilian, not crocodile, as the general term.

2) rewrite needed - The section on Biology and Behavior could use some formal grammar editing, and a check on some of the references. In particular, the last paragraph,

"It is reported[15] that when the Nile crocodile has lurked a long time underwater to catch prey, and thus has built up a big oxygen debt, when it has caught and eaten that prey, it closes its right aortic arch and uses its left aortic arch to flush blood loaded with carbon dioxide from its muscles directly to its stomach; the resulting excess acidity in its blood supply makes it much easier for the stomach lining to secrete very much stomach acid to quickly dissolve bulks of swallowed prey flesh and bone."

3) Under size, there are two conflicting paragraphs:

"The largest crocodile ever held in captivity is an Estuarine–Siamese hybrid named Yai (Thai: ใหญ่, meaning big) (born 10 June 1972) at the famous Samutprakarn Crocodile Farm and Zoo, Thailand. This animal measures 6 m (19.69 ft) (19 ft 8 in) in length and weighs 1114.27 kg."

"The largest captive crocodile alive in the US is located in South Carolina. In June 2002, Alligator Adventure introduced Utan. At 20 feet (6.1 m) long and weighing in at more than a ton, "Utan", the largest crocodile to ever be exhibited in the United States, made his new home in Myrtle Beach.[16]"

4) throughout the article, crocodilian and crocodile are used as meaning the same thing, and this is not the case. (see the size section, in which it states "Bearing these inaccuracies in mind, the oldest crocodilians appear to be the largest species.,,", it is unclear if they are talking abotu the oldest crocodile, or the oldest crocodilian species. In any case, what is probably meant is either most long-lived, on average, or oldest individual. The two are not the same measure.)

5) danger to humans section - can someone cite the Japanese soldier story? if not this needs to go, as it's hearsay to begin with, and has no source. Ditto for the information provided in the crocodile products section.

6) there needs to be a link to crocodilian.

I'll let a croc expert take a whack at this, if you have a care to otherwise, I'll check back in on it. Jbower47 (talk) 17:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

"Crocodiles are very fast over short distances, even out of water."

The article state that "Crocodiles are very fast over short distances, even out of water.". All that I can get from this sentence is that crocodiles are not slow, at over "short distances", as one might think. But what does "very fast" mean and what are "short distances". And why "very fast" and not just "fast"? I think it would be great to include some measured speeds or scientific estimates to paint a clearer picture on that topic. --78.54.120.17 (talk) 17:13, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Cladogram

A cladogram of Crocodylinae after Brochu C. A., Njau J., Blumenschine R. J., Densmore L. D. (2010) is tucked away at Rimasuchus. It might appear here too...--Wetman (talk) 22:02, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Uh, hello?

In my opinion, the classification forgot something important: that crocodiles belong to Archosauria! Could this please be fixed? 70.80.215.121 (talk) 23:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)Adam70.80.215.121 (talk) 23:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree that's a pretty significant fact. Abyssal (talk) 00:19, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Contradiction

The infobox says "Temproral range: late cretaceous - recent" and the last part of the lede says "They are believed to be 200 million years old". So which is it? - filelakeshoe 23:31, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually since this article is about crocodilids in particular and not crocodyloida (dating to the Late Cretaceous) or pan-crocodilians (dating to 200 ma or more), the oldest known crocodile (as opposed to alligator or something else) dates only to the eocene. Not exactly the living fossils people like to believe. Have updated this with refs. MMartyniuk (talk) 13:55, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

The age of a crocodile

The article states that:

"The most common method is to measure lamellar growth rings in bones and teeth—each ring corresponds to a change in growth rate which typically occurs once a year between dry and wet seasons.[19]"

then goes on immediately to say:

"Bearing these inaccuracies in mind, the oldest crocodilians appear to be the largest species."

To which inaccuracies does this sentence refer? I think some description of the difficulties inherent in estimating age from growth rings should be given or at least cited. If I knew what they were I'd change the article myself but unfortunately I, like Sergeant Schultz, know nothing. Furthermore, the use of the term "crocodilian" suggests that the sentence is referring to the age of the order crocodylia rather than the age of particular crocodiles. Perhaps this word could be changed to simply "crocodiles." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.5.32.113 (talk) 21:52, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Discrepancy in largest crocodile records

Currently the article reads:

The largest crocodile ever held in captivity is an Estuarine–Siamese hybrid named Yai (Thai: ใหญ่, meaning big) (born 10 June 1972) at the famous Samutprakarn Crocodile Farm and Zoo, Thailand. This animal measures 6 m (19.69 ft) (19 ft 8 in) in length and weighs 1114.27 kg. The largest captive crocodile alive in the US is located in South Carolina. In June 2002, Alligator Adventure introduced Utan, born in 1964 in Thailand.[17] At 20 feet (6.1 m) long and weighing in at more than a ton, "Utan", the largest crocodile to ever be exhibited in the United States, made his new home in Myrtle Beach.[18]

This would mean the crocodile in captivity in South Carolina is larger than the largest ever held in captivity...Ordinary Person (talk) 02:35, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

What color is a crocodile?

It (the color) is not mentioned anywhere! They look green, but their sides are grey and their bellies are yellow? White? Light Green? What's right? What's an albino look like? Oh, and apparently certain things can change the color of their skin: Crocodile Turns Bright Orange Does this happen often? 146.115.167.120 (talk) 22:04, 16 October 2011 (UTC)Kat in Massachusetts so I can't exactly check.

question about skulls

I was examining a skull of a caiman at the museum and noticed that it is the only skull I saw with the surface covered in dimples. I was told that these dimples act like suction cups to help hold the skin in place on the head. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rocket1962 (talk • contribs) 19:57, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Kind of. The dimpling is seen in lots of reptiles where the skin adheres tightly to the underlying bone, but it's not really "like a suction cup". I'm not aware of the specific reason off the top of my head, but my bet would be something to do with increased surface area for firmer attachment. HCA (talk) 21:58, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 April 2012

Hello. I would like to request that the common English name associated with Crocodylus suchus be changed from Desert crocodile to West African crocodile. Desert crocodile is an incredibly inaccurate name as this species is in no way limited to any desert ecosystem and is not in common usage anywhere within the crocodile, conservation, or African herpetology communities. We are still looking for the most appropriate common name, but for now West African crocodile seems to be the most appropriate. Thanks! Matt Shirley

Mecistops (talk) 19:22, 17 April 2012 (UTC)Matt Shirley