Talk:Batman

No Need

I see there to be no need for the homosexual section. It is citing a minor viewpoint and uses outdated references.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 00:08, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

It's a genuine area of academic interest that forms a major part of the character's public perception. There isn't a need insofar as you believe that to be true, but you're wrong, so there's really not a case to be argued there.Zythe (talk) 11:20, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I'm grossly mistaken, but didn't the perception of Batman being possibly homosexual play some part in the Comics Code Authority being created? Again, this is what I'm led to believe, but if true, that alone makes the homosexuality aspect of the article relevant and necessary. Regardless of my possible misunderstanding of this, it is also something that is addressed in culture, so to ignore it would be inappropriate and unfair to readers, as it is an aspect that carries some weight. Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED, and not liking it is no reason to remove it. Outside of censoring and not liking it, I can see no reason why it would be removed. - SudoGhost 11:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. It's a sourced viewpoint and one that has been important enough in comics history. Even if it were to fall under WP:FRINGE, which it doesn't, it's still brief enough that it does not constitute undue weight given to a minority view. GRAPPLE X 14:24, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

How can Batman be homosexual. if the character appears explicitly in relationships with women in comics? You can discuss at the most if he is bisexual.

--rafaelcastrocouto (talk) 18:34, 13 Jan 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.103.120.172 (talk)

There is an absolute need for a section on homosexual interpretations. As far as the character's sexuality, even if he himself is heterosexuals, Batman comics themselves can still be read as queer texts - ie of special relevance and interest to queer readers. Euchrid (talk) 00:42, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Batman Beyond

Even though Terry McGinnis is Batman Beyond or Batman of the future, shouldn't he be under "partnerships" that is under his picture of Batman at the top? Superman and Batgirl and Robin are all under there. I understand that Nightwing isn't under there because they were never directly partners, but I believe Terry McGinnis or Batman Beyond should be, despite how far away he is in the timeline since superman and batgirl were not partners at the same time either.

Batman story featuring Batboy?

This question is aimed at the wikipage on Batman.

I seem to recall that in the Batman comic series (some time probably during the 1960's) I recall Robin querying Batman about whether a suitable name for him would be "Batboy" rather than Robin. I think that this led to a (one off) story of Batman recounting that there had previously been a Batboy (who I think died). I wonder if any other readers or contributors could make a comment on this.

Jpmct (talk) 13:26, 13 August 2011 (UTC)Jpmct

Even if the issue in question could be tracked down, ff every piece of Silver Age ephemera was considered canon, the article would become unmanagably long.Euchrid (talk) 03:55, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

If it were to be added (and as Euchrid points out, that's not really that necessary), it probably would make more sense in the Robin (comics) or List of Batman supporting characters articles. GRAPPLE X 04:02, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Love interests

There should be an added subcategory about the various love interests whom Bruce Wayne/Batman had throughout the decades. Perhaps even a subcategory of some of the children he had as well.--Splashen (talk) 06:18, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Rocksteady games

How come no mentions of the Rocksteady games Arkham Asylum and Arkham City?

CrocodilesAreForWimps (talk) 18:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

The New 52

While reading I noticed this, " While many characters have their histories significantly altered to attract newer, younger readers, Batman's history remains mostly intact". While this is somewhat true I think it lacks information, alot of fans hate The New 52 because of the assumption that the comic franchise was created as a permanent change in the heroes lives. Batman may have a new comic going on right now, altered reality, but its a continuation of the Flashpoint series, and will ultimately end in 5-10 years depending on how the story goes, so Batman's reality will revert back to how it was pre- new 52, and I feel this should be re-written by someone who can talk better and added to the section about Batman in the new 52. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1AndOnlyTheGoob (talk • contribs) 09:09, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

"In 1989, the first issue of Legends of the Dark Knight, the first new solo Batman title in nearly fifty years, sold close to a million copies."

Should be moved and clarified: DKR is a solo title. --193.254.155.48 (talk) 14:06, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Please ADD Nationality

batman is AN AMERICAN Hero Please ADD It's Nationality — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saccyind (talk • contribs) 13:02, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

We do not generally assign nationalities to fictional characters, at least not in the lead sentences. It's not an intrinsic factor of describing who/what the topic is. The fact that Batman was created by American writers/artists and published by an American comic company does not mean we need to lead of with "Batman is an American hero". --IllaZilla (talk) 23:58, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Dates

In their adventures, what are the official dates of the Bruce Wayne's birth (day, number, year) and of the murder of his parents (day, number, year) ? IJKL (talk) 09:04, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Comics generally use a floating timeline, so key events don't have a fixed date that would stretch this out. I believe Thomas and Martha were killed at a time which has been specified, though, but it escapes me at the moment. GRAPPLE X 12:00, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Fans and fan sites tend to speculate on the dates, and those sources are not considered reliable for Wikipedia. That said, IIRC:

• DC at one point assigned Batman's birthday to Feb 29. This was never really a plot point though.
• Most mentions of Bruce's age, if it is mentioned at all, at the time his parents were killed has been 8. But a gain, no date is given and rarely if ever is a "XX years ago" reference used.
• The Earth-Two Batman is more likely to have a full date of birth, but only due to being "locked" into the WWII era.Again, the year would be down to fan speculation since ages at locked dates - eg the bombing of Pearl Harbor - never show up.

- J Greb (talk) 14:17, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Show Batman's Strength And Agility Level

I saw Batman in Batman Arkham City pull off a swell shutter with his hands. I saw Batman dodge a car in Batman Under The Red Hood. The comics must have the answers just like it was shown on Captain America's power level on Wikipedia's article. AnthonyTheGamer (talk) 02:31, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. The article mentions Batman's martial arts and physical expertise constantly. Are you asking why he seems to be faster etc in some mediums than in others? The answer to that is that different creators interpret the character differently, and different mediums have different requirements. Euchrid (talk) 08:06, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Example, on Captain America's article it says he can lift up 1,200 pounds and run 60 MPH so what is Batman's level? AnthonyTheGamer (talk) 00:02, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

As I said, every version depicts it differently. Movies, video games, animation, comics, TV shows...they have all shown different levels of strength, agility, etc. I doubt that any of these sources have ever attempted to give a specific figure for any of these attributes, and if so, DC reboots so regularly that they would be non canon almost immediately.Euchrid (talk) 03:15, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Had a look at Captain America's article, and that information is sourced to a recent reliable source. If you can find one that gives similar information about Batman then that's all well and good, but just because one article does something doesn't automatically mean this one should too. GRAPPLE X 03:29, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

That's a good point. That sort of material could be added so long as it was made clear which version of the character it referred to.Euchrid (talk) 03:40, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, it would read better in terms of tone and usefulness to the layman if it didn't—a 1940s breakdown of Batman's physical abilities should be referred to as being from that time, not as referring to Earth-Two Batman, for example. But as long as any singular depiction like that is attributed to its specific source and not expected to count as a sweeping generalisation of the character's entire history, then by all means it should be included. GRAPPLE X 03:44, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh, absolutely. I was thinking of character version in terms of 'In the Arkham City video game...' rather than 'the Post-Crisis, pre-Zero Hour Earth One Batman' or other fan-specific terminology.Euchrid (talk) 03:47, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

A few things guys:

• The source used with Captain America is comic published by Marvel. That isn't a reliable source, it's a primary source. Reliable in this case would be a secondary source published by a third party.
• Quantifying abilities or powers - can lift X lbs, run at Y m/sec, etc - means very, very little when dealing with these characters. Batman is as strong, fast, nimble, stealthy, etc as the writers need him to be for the purposes of their stories and still be Batman. Going to a guide published by DC, or a specific story published by DC, or game collateral they licensed is only valid as the later stories or uses of the character that contradict it.
• These are articles aimed at a general audience, not at the fans or the gamers. It is better to give the basics rather than cram in all the various stats, numbers, minutia, etc. He is a peak, all around athlete trained to "elite" levels. Easy enough. He has mastered many skills, among them are <fill in a reasonable length set of examples> and numerous forms of martial arts. Also easy enough.
• Going into detail on one specific version of the character - say the one used in the Arkham video games - skews the article even if that information can be sourced.

- J Greb (talk) 07:33, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

In all versions, it shows that Batman trains in his bat cave so there has to be training level to that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnthonyTheGamer (talk • contribs) 14:40, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, "peak athlete" and "'elite' levels" are levels of training. The latter is a nice catch phrase for someone who could compete in international sporting events, which IIRC the comics have spelled at at times without internal contradiction. The pinning down of the character's limits to hard numbers is not needed.

- J Greb (talk) 14:56, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

AnthonyTheGamer, if you can find specific information that you want added, please suggest it here. If you're asking other people to do your research for you, that's not how Wikipedia works. Euchrid (talk) 01:33, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Well J Greb, two of Batman's signature interrogation taunts is to hold a man by his leg over a building and hold a man by his neck in the air. They were both shown in the comics, television and video games. The men have to weigh over 100lbs. Superman's strength level is measured on the Wikipedia's article technically from DC comics; fact. To Euchrid, what is the point of Wikipedia then if people do not do the research for you?

AnthonyTheGamer (talk) 23:17, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

For YOU to do research, by which I mean reading primary and secondary sources (not original research) and add things that you think are worth adding. I think, though, that in this case consensus is pretty clearly against adding any specific numbers for Batman's physical prowess. Euchrid (talk) 00:26, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

To Euchrid, I am not using original research so here is a fact: In Justice League Unlimited Episode 13 "The Once and Future Thing, Part 2: Time, Warped", Batman actually held one of the Jokerz by the leg, over a roof with one hand. It should be added to Batman's power and abilities that he can pick up a man with one hand. Agreed? AnthonyTheGamer (talk) 18:20, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but in Year One, he gets jumped by a child. Should we add that he has a weakness to children? I mean it's not quite kryptonite (she does have a knife, but still, come on, he's mean to be the Batman) but it's as pertinent as any one singular example of his physical prowess. GRAPPLE X 18:23, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

This is getting into WP:OR territory. Anthony, please put the stock down. - J Greb (talk) 21:08, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

The article already says "Batman has been repeatedly described as one of the greatest martial artists in the DC Universe", and lists his abilities as including "physical prowess, martial arts skills, an indomitable will, fear, and intimidation". Adding that he can lift a person, whether it's a 'fact' or not, seems like uneccessary detail to me.Euchrid (talk) 23:03, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Grapple X If it happened in the comics then we should add it. J Greb It is not original research because I got it from the primary source but are you telling me that you are going argue with DC comics who published Batman? Euchrid Wikipedia's policy is to update every article with new information from the primary source and that is what I am typing, from the primary source which is from DC comics. AnthonyTheGamer (talk) 02:51, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Bluntly:

• WP:PRIMARY - "Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them." This does not mean every scrap of minutia from ever appearance of the character gets into the article.
• This is a general use article not a fan centric one. Discribing the character in an in-story context should be in general terms.
• Shtick, especially when it applies almost as a general trope for badass outdoor interrogation, does not need to be commented on.
• Interpreting shtick as an "ability or power" or trying to use it as an end-run to get a number of how much Batman can lift is OR.

- J Greb (talk) 13:08, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Now technically J Greb, WP:SOURCES says the word "source" in Wikipedia has three meanings: the work itself (for example: the comic, cartoon, movie, book or video game), the creator of the work (for example, Bob Kane), and the publisher of the work (for example, DC Comics).Now arguing with what the publisher DC Comics who is publishing the character Batman, is against Wikipedia's WP:5P. DC Comics would order for their articles to be updated to their information and Wikipedia would have to do it which means there would be no WP:OR.AnthonyTheGamer (talk) 13:29, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Wikilawyering to get what you want doesn't go over well. Neither does bludgeoning a point or playing the system where consensus is against you.

Beyond that...

A "source" can be primary, secondary, or tertiary. WP:SOURCE deals with determining how reliable a source is. WP:PRIMARY deals with how far removed it is from the topic. Please do not misconstrue what they mean.

Primary sources are in a grey area for reliability, regardless of if it is coming from the comic (plot summary only), writer (self aggrandizement and self editing happen), or the publisher (product pushing or damage control). Secondary sources are supposed to be used to build the article and the real world context that is supposed to be the bulk of it. And those sources should be second party - written by others about the topic.

- J Greb (talk) 19:41, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Batman's Temporary Powers

In the television series, "The Batman" episode 59, production 507, episode name "Ring Toss", Batman temporarily has the Green Lantern's powers. Should be added because of primary source. AnthonyTheGamer (talk) 02:56, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

As I tried to explain to you on the Superman talkpage, it is neither feasible nor desirable to list everything these characters have ever done. Batman in particular has been consistently in print since 1939; listing everthing in the manner you seem to be asking for would make the article overlong, impenetrable and useless to the lay reader, not to mention being pure fancruft. Euchrid (talk) 03:31, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Same stick new horse?

1. Primary focus is the comics - where the character originated - not the spin-off media.
2. Again, this is an article for general use, not a fanpage or project.
3. Trivia such as "Batman wore a power ring" is not needed in a general overview of the topic.

- J Greb (talk) 13:17, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Well I think that DC Comics should know that Wikipedia is not updating their articles to their information. Also to J Greb why in the article is there a section called "other media" which doesn't claim to your spin-off media? Your primary focus of the article is comics, this article doesn't say Batman (comics).AnthonyTheGamer (talk) 13:45, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

You know he wore a codpiece sometimes too. We should add that he wore a codpiece. You see how needless these additions would be? As for the primary focus being comics, that's because Batman in film is a wholly different article. GRAPPLE X 14:01, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

It should be noted that Wikipedia articles are not meant to be complete expositions of all possible details. Rather, an article is a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject. Information being verifiable is not the only criteria, it must be treated with due weight. If reliable sources don't give weight to this detail, then it's undue to include it in the article. Especially because out of all the episodes of all the Batman related television programs, comics, and other media, you're referring to something that happened in a single episode; it would be undue to include this in the article, giving it more prominence than all of the other things that happened in the (what I suspect are) thousands of other combined comics, episodes, movies, etc. This isn't even a minor detail of what the Batman character is, it's a trivial mention, I don't see any reason to include it. - SudoGhost 14:11, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Don't take the baitEuchrid (talk) 21:18, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

You are messaging to me that you won't update Batman's powers and abilities which actually happened in DC comics but you guys created a section and article about batman's homosexuality which is WP:NOR. AnthonyTheGamer (talk) 00:19, 30 May 2012 (UTC)