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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 81.173.171.72 (talk) at 00:45, 13 September 2012 (→‎Does not news only concern articles, or does it concern their content as well?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Catalogue

I think that we should add a section for Wikipedia is not a shopping catalogue in the soapbox section. Who agrees? Us441 (talk to me) (My piece) 14:27, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We already have "not a catalog" in the NOTDIR section. --MASEM (t) 14:58, 1 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
and we have not had the least problem in removing any that get inserted. DGG ( talk ) 18:00, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Verifiable future events with no real world impact yet

For previous discussions see WikiProject discussion and subsequent DRN case.

In the articles about ongoing topics one would normally find some verifiable statements about future events that may happen but have no real world consequences yet (eg. new cast members in soap operas which signed contracts but didn't make their appearance yet; features of software that were announced in future versions but were not implemented yet; corporate mergers that "leaked" to major news media but were not announced yet). Should this content (if it is attributed to reliable sources) be included in the articles in spirit of WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:NOT#CRYSTAL? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) (DRN volunteer) 15:27, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As long as the source is reliable and is not presenting the information as a rumor, then there no reason under WP:NOT to prevent including this information; there may be other policy, guidelines or decisions by consensus to omit this information, however. But it is important to identify if the information is coming from someone with direct knowledge/control of that future aspect, as opposed to some industry analyst that may be reliable but making a stab in the dark. If it is the case that one or more highly reliable sources are speaking of some future event but there's no confirmation from the direct source, these can be included but usually adding text cavaet of "According to source, this event will happen." as to take away the crystal-ball aspect. --MASEM (t) 15:47, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The issue from my perspective is that these statements are, necessarily, predictions, and that therefore full verification cannot occur until they are resolved. Even when they are true, one sees a lot of articles which contain outdated statements about what will happen or is expected to happen by some date which is now in the past. Now, some of what looks like predictions aren't, or can be presented in ways that are not predictions. For example, in the case at hand the addition of Bonnie Franklin to the cast could have been phrased as occurring in the past ("CBS announced that....") and then updated now that the air date has passed and she is indeed verified as appearing. The tweet passed on by SOD strikes me as lacking reliability; even cast in the past it's questionable.
It's somewhat context-dependent. We've had a bunch of statements in lighthouse articles saying that this light was going to be deactivated or torn down, and in a lot of cases, it doesn't happen. We've had a category discussion recently about projects planned to be completed by a certain year; of course even buildings already under construction are often not completed on time. I would want a pretty high degree of confidence that the predicted events actually were going to occur. Mangoe (talk) 17:16, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yup - context matters: "features of software that were announced in future versions but were not implemented yet" for instance fall firmly into WP:CRYSTALBALL territory. Not to mention that the only people able to directly make such 'announcements' are the producers of the software, and per WP:RS, aren't third party sources. At best such material would have to be of the form "ReliableSouceForThisSortOfStuff Magazine reports that TrustworthySoftwareDeveloper has announced that NotableSofwarePackage version 3.1 due to be released SometimeSpecificAndSoon, will feature SomethingSpecificAndSignificant". Anything else is likely to be just recycled press-release puffery or outright rumour. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:36, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]


(ec)A lot of the issues you mention can be gotten around to avoid the OR-ness simply by adding a few words to indicate the source or likelihood. For example, in the lighthouse case, you can say "scheduled to be deactivated in YYYY", which is 1) the truth assuming that is what the RS says, and 2) does not condemn WP in any way if the deactivation occurs later. In the case of actors leaving/returning to the show, often citing within the prose of the WP article who made the claim is sufficient to take a statement of speculation and to make it factual without harming WP's reliability. "CBS has announced that John Smith will be appearing in this show during the 2013 television season" is a factual claim about what CBS says: if this John Smith never appears, it's CBS that was wrong because things change, and we just update WP later, particularly if counter-statements after the fact come along. eg "Though CBS had announced John Smith would appear this season, scheduling difficulties forced his appearance to occur the next season." would be the statement we make after the fact.
We just don't want to introduce speculative OR ourselves. A case in point I'm dealing with is for the upcoming season of Fringe, we know it takes place at a certain point in time that introduced what were previously one-shot guest actors. A teaser video suggests these actors will reappear but no absolute word has been said to this. Ergo, we cannot make the claim that these guest actors will reappear this season. As soon as FOX or the show's producers say otherwise, or the episodes actually start to air, then we can, but not until that point.
To Andy's point - actually, it doesn't matter about third-party-ness here at this point, assuming there are plenty of other third-party sources to meet WP:V and sources for notability. A software manufacture saying "Feature X will be in version 2.0" is a completely valid statement we can source and use. We'd just write that as "The software maker states they plan for X to be included in version 2.0". That's not crystal-balling at all. Now, that's why I said it is important that the article's already got third-party and notability sources. If all that the article is riding on is first-party press release or promotional information on a yet-released product, we shouldn't have an article about it at all. --MASEM (t) 17:40, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
While not "crysal balling" per se, it then falls very much into the WP:ADVERT as being merely promotional. -- The Red Pen of Doom 18:02, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not always. I'm pulling a hypothetical example out here, but lets say there's a brand new web browser on the market, and it's gotten appropriate critical reception for a standalone articles, but for some reason lacks tabbed browsing, though the developer says this is planned for a future release. Because tabbed browsing is a rather common feature in browsers, the statement by the developer to say it is a planned feature is not promotional, at least, in the purest sense, and such mention should be included. On the other hand, if they're promising that a future version will print money for you, yeeeeah, that's both a bit overly speculative and entirely promotional. --MASEM (t) 21:23, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How would this affect a statement in November of this year (2012) which states "On January XX, Obama/Romney will be sworn in as President". The president-elect is a living person and the swearing-in is highl;y probable. In a similar vein, there was a discussion here about a similar situation. Martinvl (talk) 20:15, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's all in the wording. Your statement on the swearing in is not one to use because until that date passes, that may not be fact. But simply rewording it: "The swearing in of the President is scheduled to occur on January XX" - makes the statement a fact (since such events are scheduled months in advance) and doesn't harm WP's reputation should that date change due to an unforeseen event (which can happen). But here, it also helps that this is a regular event in US politics every four years, and acts like clockwork (just like the Olympics, for example). On the Wedding one, humans are more fickle and there'd be no assurance the wedding would go through. Probably as the date actually got closer and arrangements for the actual festivities, ceremony, traffic management, etc. were being made, it would be reasonable to state the scheduled date, because at that point, others are banking on that date as well. --MASEM (t) 21:23, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I dont see how your tabbed browsing is not promotional. I am not going to bother with a browser that doesnt have that but might consider keeping an eye on one where that feature is a promised future update. It is a claim by the creator that is moving its product from a dinosuar to the modern era.-- The Red Pen of Doom 21:39, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That logic would invalid any article on any commercial product (physical or virtual) until its actual release, since nearly all material about yet-released products is designed as promotion to get people excited about the product. Instead, for us at WP, have to filter these through critical eyes, use secondary sources that mention what are appropriate features of product are to be highlighted, etc., even if they use claims from the creatures of the project. We clearly don't want articles that are 100% promotion, but there is a line and allowance for future promotional claims - written in a neutral format - within the prose of a verifiable, notable article about the product. There is a fine line here, of course, as we're not supposed to be selling the project, but that's why I used the tabbed browsing case - it's considered an essential feature of the browser so its present lack of that feature and promise of it being added later is not promotion, particularly if the lack is called out by secondary sources. --MASEM (t) 21:58, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Masem, reporting on the announcement of a new product or show or cast change or whatever is not promotion. Praising an unreleased product is promotional, but simply stating that a product by a notable company will be released in the future is not. Stating that the Wii U will be released in the fourth quarter of 2012 is neither promotional or CRYSTALBALL-ish.--SGCM (talk) 22:34, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree with Masem's points and feel they better articulate some of what I've tried to express in the previous discussions re: reported cast changes. While pages regarding the characters wait for on-screen appearances, I feel the actor pages should be able to have this type of information, since the sources are quoting that a contract has been signed/released and/or they've actually begun filming it just hasn't aired yet. All those are facts and can be updated if the facts change. Per advertising claims, does location count? Since the information is being put on pages about the actors/shows/cast, anyone going there is already looking for this information? Thanks everyone. Kelly Marie 0812 (talk) 00:01, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We don't need to guess about the future, we can wait for it.  Unscintillating (talk) 00:17, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, it's just pointless to include such things in a cast list. It is perfectly acceptable to include such information on the character's article (if they have one). "Comings and goings" comes from the title soap blogs give it; having such a section turns Wikipedia into such a website. Statυs (talk) 04:22, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is a degree of how much weight a future event may carry. Let's use the example of cast lists. If it is known that an actor is joining the main credited cast, reported by many reliable sources, there's no reason not to include that and in fact, we'd look silly for not including it just because its an event that hasn't happened. If we have word of a producer and of a guest star that they will appear in one episode that season, that's probably a good reason to include but we shouldn't give undue weight on that. If it's an industry rumor that said person might have been on set for an episode, that's a wait-and-see approach. And I will caution here that SPOILER is a good guideline to think about here - we don't hide facts that are widely known, and here we would not hide future facts that have been widely reported in reliable sources. --MASEM (t) 04:45, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"we would not hide future facts". Just out of curiosity, could you define what a "future fact" is, and how one would distinguish it from say "future guesswork". I'm sure that the philosophy departments of leading universities around the world are busy shredding their textbooks as I write, given your ground-breaking announcement that such things exist... AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:57, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think the point is we wouldn't hide scheduled events simply because they haven't happened yet. But the scheduling itself is a fact/event that has occurred. Kelly Marie 0812 (talk) 05:01, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's all sourcing. Again to the example, if 5-6 different entertainment magazine separate confirm that an actor is in a starring role for an upcoming season, that's not guesswork. If only one questionable source suggests this and doesn't give a reason why, it's more guesswork. --MASEM (t) 05:06, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And yea, Kelly Marie's idea that one considered it the scheduling of the event by those in charge of it as reported to multiple sources makes it a past event, with the possibility of something might change in the future. --MASEM (t) 05:07, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Masem, I completely agree; what I am against is this avid use of a "comings and goings" section. For example, on List of The Bold and the Beautiful cast members, there was a comings and goings section that, again (as it was listed already in the article), repeated the actor and the character the person played, with the addition of the date they return/exit. If they are now part of the cast, they are part of the cast and should be added. But for former members, until they are gone from the show, they should not be moved into a "former cast members" section. This "comings and goings" bullcrap needs to go. Zac  06:11, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If it's relevant for the main articles it should be okay to include in the summarized list as well. Also I think actors who have not renewed contracts and are leaving are relevant to this type of information/article. You removed the list on the B&B cast list boldly without a discussion first. Kelly Marie 0812 (talk) 11:05, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
in Masem's support for the concept, xe has stated "It's all in the wording. Your statement on the swearing in is not one to use because until that date passes, that may not be fact. But simply rewording it: "The swearing in of the President is scheduled to occur on January XX" - makes the statement a fact" How would you propose to have appropriate wording and context in the "List of SOAP Characters" articles? -- The Red Pen of Doom 11:34, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If necessary, I think an additional column could be added with brief detail, such as "did not renew contract, as reported in ReliableSource1," "tvshow1 released casting call as reported to news/reliablesource2," "actor1 has begun filming, as reported in ReliableSource3," or "actor 2 has officially signed a contract with tvshow2, as reported in ReliableSource4." However, it's still my opinion that the sourcing is sufficient on its own since these contract/filming/casting events have occurred. FYI I am off to work for the day and won't be able to respond until later tonight. Thanks everyone for the help. Kelly Marie 0812 (talk) 12:10, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perfect. Zac  15:43, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think that there's two different scenarios and we are confusing them.
If an organization announces something by themselves, then that information is official and can be added to an article (if it's relevant enough). Those announcements about the future can be cancelled, but they are still official announcements.
If a media leaks an information, then it's unofficial. That usually is unreliable, but can be relevant in some special cases.
--NaBUru38 (talk) 16:23, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is well established that companies announce future events (such as software game companies announcing release dates) and then miss them. Is the encyclopedia served by having, even if appropriately couched in weasel language of "The company has announced that it will ...." such predictions about future events? I can see theoretical instances when an announcement will itself be of such note and with such levels of outside coverange and analysis of the future event that it becomes encyclopedic in nature, but all in all those cases would seem to be such rare events that they would be covered by WP:IAR and that the trivial day-to-day promotional announcements would be better off not cluttering up articles.-- The Red Pen of Doom 16:47, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
From the perspective of video games, if a company's announcement that it plans on releasing a game in the future, and that announcement is picked up by reliable sources, it is worthy of inclusion somewhere. We generally discourage the immediate creation of a new article that only has the announcement details, instead adding that to the article on the developer or if the game extends a series or is a sequel, on those respective articles. But in the VG industry, big titles are show, discussed, and demonstrated in depth well before release. (Bioshock Infinite is 6 months out from release, but look how much is there about it already. Or in some cases the game undergoes a significant development cycle before cancellation (Sam & Max: Freelance Police). But I think the key here is the external observation about the product or future event. A press release that otherwise doesn't get mention in third-party sources is probably not sufficient to include. --MASEM (t) 17:14, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"From the perspective of video games, if a company's announcement that it plans on releasing a game in the future, and that announcement is picked up by reliable sources, it is worthy of inclusion somewhere." Why is it worthy of inclusion somewhere? how does that improve the encyclopedia? We are not a breaking news service, and we are not an advertising media, to re-re-gurgitate someone's promotional press release. -- The Red Pen of Doom 17:25, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And your "examples" are of announcements that have recieved significant coverage and analysis outside of the press release - the type that one can easily make an WP:IAR exception argument for. -- The Red Pen of Doom 17:31, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is calling it IAR - in video games, as long as we're talking titles from major developers, coverage prior to release is virtually an assured event. Extend it to other cases - for television shows, I know media like Entertainment Weekly and Vanity follow casting choices well prior to the broadcast, and as long as the show is a major one, this type of coverage is not exceptional.
To your first point, and this comes again to the IAR aspect - since nearly every game published by a major development will get coverage, release or not, the title of the game is a search term, it provides a place to put coverage of the game until a separate article is warranted, and the like. It's not "news" in that in the case of most news events the amount of coverage spikes and then falls to zero; for products, there is usually the initial spike but the coverage actually never zeroes out but instead builds slowly as the planned release nears. News events don't work like that. For all of these, we're talking about calling the future event reasonable to include (just like we have the 2016 Summer Olympics already) because of the reliability of the companies and sources reporting on it. They may end up being absolutely wrong, but that's not soiling WP's reputation. --MASEM (t) 17:38, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such thing as a 'future event'. Please cut out the bullshit. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:12, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, these aren't future events, they are current events that relate to future events. Just because a tv show hasn't aired, a movie hasn't come out, a video game isn't physically on the shelf, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist whatsoever yet. People are filming, working, producing, and these are events worthy of coverage as long as they are being reliably reported, etc. Even if the project falls through, someone still worked on the product, someone still signed a contract even if it's later thrown out, someone still filmed a movie even if it doesn't make it to theaters. As long as it meets other verifiable wiki criteria, I think it should be included. Thanks - Kelly Marie 0812 (talk) 22:07, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No. A statement that something is going to happen in the future isn't a current event in any meaningful encyclopaedic sense. Both WP:CRYSTALBALL and WP:NOTNEWS apply (along with WP:INDISCRIMINATE, WP:NOTPROMOTION etc), and are firmly established guidelines. Any material added in contravention to such guidelines is liable to be deleted - and it is for those wishing to contravene the guidelines to explain why they should be, for each individual case. This is non-negotiable unless and until Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not is revised - and no proposal has so far been made to do so. If anyone wishes to make a specific proposal, they are of course welcome to do this, but it can't be done by arguing that you don't think it should apply to 'future events' relating to specifics, without getting wider discussion regarding broader principles. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:42, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What I'm trying to convey is that while these event impact future events, they are in themselves current events. That is, actors are hired, shows/movies are filmed, products are developed. That is what the sources are reporting. If the articles were in regards to the character, then yes it would be speculation as the character has not appeared. But the actor has been hired/fired and/or is filming their role. I don't think WP:CRYSTAL applies. Kelly Marie 0812 (talk) 00:49, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As Masem and Kelly Marie 0812 say, official announcements are current events. Sometimes they are relevant, sometimes they aren't. If FIFA announces that the 2012 World Cup will be held in Qatar, it's relevant for the articles FIFA World Cup and Qatar, for example. If I announce that I will release a new videogame, then it's not relevant for Wikipedia. --NaBUru38 (talk) 23:22, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Corporate announcements are competitive marketing tools, and are trivial as current events: a person at a mic is not a "current event", and an email or sheet of paper in a fax machine is not a "current event." Wikipedia is NOT a corporate marketing tool, no matter what PR and marketing people want. We as Wikipedia editors should not be feeding at the PR trough. We should stick with independent reliable sources which discuss the subject: if they don't discuss (as opposed to reprint) we are under no obligation to mention any such advertisement. Primary sources are fine for details, or declarations of mission, but for actual products or events which have not happened? If no RS discusses it in a non-trivial way, skip it. Compare vaporware. Nobody wants to be used as a PR tool, and Wikipedia editors should definitely develop an allergy to being so used. Encyclopedias are not about future events. Announcements by themselves are rarely significant, and are in and of themselves not events worthy of mouthing here.
To be very blunt, public relations and marketing people positively squirt every time one of their pieces gets cited directly by Wikipedia, instead of being first discussed by a independent reliable sources. Let's interrupt that ad-jaculation loop. --Lexein (talk) 13:51, 12 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If the only thing announcing a corporate "future event" (a new product, etc.) is the press release by the company making this product, yes, we have to avoid giving undue weight to that primary source to make it more significant than it is. However, when that press release or marketing blurb is outlined and pointed to by several reliable sources in that field, (and no, not just regurgitating the press release but adding additional flavor commentary to it when possible), that shows that others have interest in this event, and ergo discussing the event in that light is no longer marketing but appropriate coverage for an encyclopedia. BTW, we do cover notable vaporware - Up until last year, Duke Nukem Forever was an article on a widely-notable piece of vaporware until it finally got its release. Again, though, its about what coverage other independent sources give to a product to be released in the future, and DNF had that in spades. --MASEM (t) 14:02, 12 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a violation of CRYSTAL?

There is a disagreement at Talk:Lance Armstrong about whether the text in this revert is a violation of CRYSTAL. This is the text that was added then removed:

Once the USADA produces its "reasoned decision" per WADA Code Section 8.3, Armstrong, the UCI or WADA may appeal to CAS. If there is no appeal, then WADA Code Signatories like the UCI and ASO (owner of the Tour de France) are obligated to abide by USADA's sanctions per WADA Code Section 15.4, Mutual Recognition. If there is an appeal, CAS may rule in favor of USADA, overturn their decision, or assign jurisdiction to the UCI.

Any assistance in helping resolve this agreement would be appreciated. Please weigh in here: Talk:Lance_Armstrong#2012_USADA_Charges.2C_Take_2. Thanks! --Born2cycle (talk) 18:09, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Whether it violates WP:CRYSTAL or not seems irrelevant to me. It is sourced to a blog, and to a primary source - the interpretation of the WADP source is WP:OR, plain and simple. Unless and until WP:RS (i.e. reputable media organisations) comments on what may happen later, we don't, per policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:52, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Does not news only concern articles, or does it concern their content as well?

How do you determine what well covered event of a famous person should be in their article and what should not? If they got coverage for something over a full month in various major newspapers, and their actions got people talking about some issue they brought to public attention, does that belong in their article? I'm thinking to prevent regular arguments with people just quoting every policy and guideline they can think of randomly until they find something that is vague enough to support their personal opinion on something, we need specifically set rules. Dream Focus 22:54, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

we need specifically set rules. -- I agree, but good luck with the "CREEP" crowd. --81.173.171.72 (talk) 00:45, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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