Talk:Hoover Dam

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Lead picture

Wouldn't it better to have a more modern, high-res, color photo as the first picture rather than that indistinct old thing from 1942? Vranak (talk) 21:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

See the conversation two discussions above. The photo was taken by a famous photographer and is a good one, just old. I believe consensus is that when we get a good new one with the bridge, we will swap it out.--NortyNort (Holla) 21:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, a image from downstream and elevated which shows both dam and bridge.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:48, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

...assuming it's decent quality, meaning not some kind of low rez phone image. - Denimadept (talk) 21:59, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

To the no doubt much younger than me OP - Black and white does not mean lesser quality than colour. HiLo48 (talk) 22:41, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. It's mostly rock (canyon) and concrete (dam), so what color is he expecting? :-D - Denimadept (talk) 22:53, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh, no question, Demiadept, we will not be selling out Ansel Adams for a mess of pottage. It would have to be really good. And by specifying we want the bridge in there we eliminate the standard tourist pix.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

When this great images comes, we will know.--NortyNort (Holla) 23:41, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

The Adams image is fairly high resolution (for web imagery) as it is, scanned at 3000 x 2403. He probably shot it on an 8" x 10" negative using a view camera, so the original negative is equivalent to several hundred megapixels of sensor. Acroterion (talk) 23:48, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

If you search for "Hoover Dam Bypass" here, there are several images with the bypass complete and the dam. Most are elevated, some pretty good. All PD.--NortyNort (Holla) 00:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

If I were to go there and make a new image for this article, I'd want an angle like this but with the finished bridge. I'm considering a trip there to do just that, but if I do it, it'll be a few months. - Denimadept (talk) 00:46, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I would find such an image acceptable. Love going there, hope you get to go.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:26, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Doing some routine updating as I constantly do for articles I've worked on, I came across this image, which seems to fulfil the criteria above. It's PD, the dam is shown clearly, the bypass is complete and shown clearly. While the Adams image is great, keep in mind that it does not display the present state of affairs at the dam. I suggest we adopt this as new lede image and move the Adams image elsewhere in the article. We can always put it with the refs. Note that the new image shows the downstream situation--the stoney gates and so forth, and the boating barrier--very clearly.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:59, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

That looks good. If it's PD, upload it to Commons and move the Adams picture to elsewhere in the article. You just saved me a trip to LV!  :-) - Denimadept (talk) 15:38, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Hm, I just took a closer look at that image. Does the rock have all those wavy vertical lines in it, perhaps from construction, or is that all compression artifacts? I still like it, but I may want to recreate it later. - Denimadept (talk) 15:44, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Have you compared with other images of the dam? --Wehwalt (talk) 16:36, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I asked you first. - Denimadept (talk) 16:48, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

These are artifacts, they are all over the photo and the pattern is somewhat irregular but not influenced by picture details, so I don't think they are the result of compression. My guess is that this has been scanned from a good CMYK ink-jet or similar print and we are seeing an interaction with the scanner resolution, but that is only a guess. The view is super (very good of the bridge too) although we don't really see the curve of the dam, but this image is in my opinion too low quality to use. While we were preparing the article, there was another modern picture taken from the Adams viewpoint. I liked the "then and now" juxtaposition of those two photos. Could we do that if we move the Adams picture? --Mirokado (talk) 18:44, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

What I can do is what I should have done months ago, start looking for public information at BuRec and ask for a nice hires image. Was the modern picture the one with water shooting out? In the article under "operations"? I would object to a modern image that does not show the bridge, the historic image can be excused as not showing the present situation as lede image, however a modern photo without the bridge? No. We'd look out of date.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I've sent an email explaining the situation and asking for their help. I gave them that one as an example of what we were looking for, and explained why we could not use it. All of the ones on BuRec's database have the bridge directly in front of the dam and from what I saw have the powerhouse in deep shadow, obscuring details. I think we want one with the bridge above the dam. Bridge below the dam I think you'd have to be almost straight up.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:25, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

If they come up with something before I can go, I'll save money. Otherwise, I'll go and do what we know we want. I know where I want to go to get the picture, from the maps. It'll take a short walk. - Denimadept (talk) 20:40, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

They are mailing me a CD with images. Don't make any noncancelable reservations.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:18, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Great! - Denimadept (talk) 19:40, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Got them, I will upload tonight and also insert OTRS requests just to nail things down. I updated the article on the question of power allocation. I will seek consensus here before any change is made.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:28, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm looking forward to seeing what they sent you. - Denimadept (talk) 20:50, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

[File:Hoover Dam with Bypass from Reclamation.tif This] is the best one of what they sent. I'll take care of the OTRS request now. I'll upload another one later on this evening. Most of them are nice shots but useless for our purposes.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

You mean I'd really want more elevation, but it could do. - Denimadept (talk) 23:17, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The bridge dominates that pic. While it is an impressive object in its own right, this article is about the dam. HiLo48 (talk) 23:25, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Hang on just a second. Let me upload the other one. It does have more elevation.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:26, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

It's already on Commons, here.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:36, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Hmmmm. I hate sounding picky, but for me that one on Commons has too much shade on the dam wall. The pic above, and Ansel Adams' pic, both highlight the dam in full sun. HiLo48 (talk) 23:48, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Both those pics are underexposed, with shadowed areas too dark (probably a difficult shot on a bright day with one side of the canyon in shadow). I would wait for a better one. Of the two, the second from the higher elevation would be better. --Mirokado (talk) 23:52, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree, to be frank. You know, it may not be possible to capture the bypass without reducing the dam unacceptably in size and emphasis. And judging by the fact that all but one of the color photographs in the article appear to be taken at "high noon", the shade is going to detract on any such image. I could email the guy again and explain the concerns.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:54, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

So we want an image taken on a clear day around Noon. And, I should add, real "noon", not some kind of adulterated "noon" created by timezones and Daylight Savings Time. It's a deep canyon. If you want to avoid shadow, that's going to be the only time that'll work. It might require some measure of manipulation. I may have to go out there after all. - Denimadept (talk) 00:16, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes. I probably won't be in the area myself until next year, unfortunately. But do you think it will be possible to take an image showing the bypass, but not having the bypass dominate?--Wehwalt (talk) 00:21, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

I wrote him and told him we wanted an image much like the rejected shot from a few days ago and said we were looking for " A dead on shot from elevation so that you see the powerhouse, jet flow gates. No deep shadow (full sunlight if possible) . The bypass in the shot but the dam shown as large as possible. The bypass not obstructing any part of the dam."--Wehwalt (talk) 00:32, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Mustn't get pushy. We'll probably just have to do it. - Denimadept (talk) 03:28, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I would feel guilty if you spent money to go and I had not tried everything I could before that ...--Wehwalt (talk) 03:43, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the effort Wehwalt. I think it will be pretty difficult to have a ground image where the bypass doesn't dominate unless you cut most of it out. An angled overhead may be the solution. Something akin to 1, 2 or 3. (USBR Search).--NortyNort (Holla) 11:35, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Wb, NortyNort, hope all is well. I think that any image that shows the bypass obstructing the dam would be unsuitable. Let's see if the guy comes back with more (possibly by snail mail) or tells me to go to hell.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:07, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

He says the image I want is a Federal Highways Administration image (they administered the Hoover Dam Bypass project) and it may take him several days to track it down. Or if he sees a similar image, he'll send it along as well. Let us see what happens. If the image that was rejected a few days ago was given to us problem-free, would it be suitable? this image.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:56, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I'd settle for that. There is light shadow across part of the dam and rock face but it doesn't detract, it shows the stoney gates and diversion outlets, and the powerhouse nearly complete. We see the entire downstream face of the dam. We do not see the jet flow gates well, due to the angle, but there are images that show that better, and that is not a big deal. The bypass is shown complete and well, but the face of the dam is as large as I've seen in this kind of photo. I would say "good enough" but of course if something better comes along ... that is, assuming he can supply it.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:00, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I am not completely back yet, I am still a transient and won't have my own place until sometime next week. Good times. I like the photo you suggested and agree. As a main picture, it shows most facilities (the side of the jet-flow gates are visible) and the bypass as well. The dam itself takes up roughly the same amount of space as the Adams photo does now. The internet and us also have a plethora of photos of the dam as well. Those w/ the bypass are less common. I think this picture adds more value in that sense as well.--NortyNort (Holla) 20:35, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

That picture would be OK if free of defects. Please add my thanks for the effort involved next time you write to your contact. It is really appreciated. --Mirokado (talk) 23:10, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I shall! I am always gratified when people take time from their working time to assist Wikipedians. We make pests of ourselves at many an archive!--Wehwalt (talk) 23:12, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Arbitrary and capricious break

Ah, I just heard from my contact he tells me that image was taken by a contractor, so it is out of bounds. He did send me another, similar image which he says is PD. Once I hear from him with the name of the photographer and date it was taken I will upload at commons under the name File:Hoover Dam with Bypass Government.tif (that saves me a post:) ) . I will describe it as taken from a very similar angle, but slightly off. There is a small amount of shadow, I would say medium, darkening a small part of the Arizona side of the dam and about a third of the Arizona powerhouse. However, my contact tells me he was playing with it in Photoshop and it lightens up nicely with a contrast/level adjustment. The other works are about the same visibility on both images, I'm talking about jet flow gates/stoney gates/diversion (spillway) outlets.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:14, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Very nice, especially that they are so helpful. I look forward to seeing it. On other note, per your mention above, I think the addition you may to the distribution section is good. I can update it later unless someone else beats me to it.--NortyNort (Holla) 17:12, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Has something happened since? I like the way that section has grown, it was a single sentence when the article passed FA.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:28, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Any news? Maybe I'll head over there this weekend. I'm in Albuquerque, so it's not THAT ridiculous a road trip. It's just that I can't guarantee the light or the weather. The weather.com report for Boulder City, NV looks good. - Denimadept (talk) 00:25, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I emailed the guy twice asking for the information I needed, he never responded. I can't urge you to drive that far, but if you go, good luck.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:35, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Of course, the proper way to do this would be with an 8x10 view camera with current B&W film... nah. I don't have those or the time and patience for it. I'll just use my D90 and take exhaustive shots like I did with Harvard Bridge. Yeah. :-) - Denimadept (talk) 00:42, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

As one obsessive (now in recovery) to another, good luck.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:44, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh, if I was going to be obsessive about it, I'd also refresh my study of the Zone System, get the exact equipment he had, and maybe use similar plates. Not going there, in that sense. nope nope nope. - Denimadept (talk) 01:15, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, either way, enjoy the trip and don't stress too much. I understand the dam will be there for a while.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:18, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I didn't make it. Costing it out just reminded me why I've not done it yet. :-( - Denimadept (talk) 07:58, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I was getting a bit worried! Don't worry about the image, we'll survive with the Ansel Adams.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Poor Ansel, if only he were alive to take another picture. I will be out in the Vegas area in late April; I will try to head out to the dam if we don't have a good picture already. I must admit my camera isn't great but my brother is a professional photographer. Maybe he will let me use one of his nifty cameras or I will have to argue with him for the rights to use one of his pictures. He is a shrewd businessman. :)--NortyNort (Holla) 15:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

It looks like I will be in Las Vegas at the end of March. I have no trouble with going to the dam again, but I don't see any roads downstream of the bypass on google maps. I am willing to hike so long as it isn't too demanding. Can someone give me the info together with what time of day would be good? The dates, if sun angle matters, would be either March 30 or April 1.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:49, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Rent a black helicopter and fly under that new bridge to get a few shots in. You'll make the news. Alarbus (talk) 15:35, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 23 January 2012

The inclusion of the Hoover Dam in popular culture. For example. Transformers 1. and the percy Jackson and The Olympians book series. Just a small add on that should be done. 76.1.243.65 (talk) 22:40, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Not done. Popular culture sections are basically trivial and we try to keep those out of articles these days.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I am a descendant of the Dr. Ray Lyman Wilbur, and I think when he is mentioned as just Secretary Wilbur, I think they should make a link to his wikipedia page.

I will do it, but it's really a borderline matter. We generally link on the first instance, but as there is a long gap between mentions, I guess it's OK.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 February 2012

Since the article is semi protected and I don't have the necessary requirements to make the modification I wanted to know if someone could add the following template Template:Link GA for it wiki?--Anacleto 00 (talk) 17:56, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

It's already a FA. - Denimadept (talk) 19:03, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

He meant that the version of Hoover Dam on the resurrected Italian Wikipedia has attained GA, for which I offer congratulations. I've added the appropriate template.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:46, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

@Wehwalt: just one question, why do you talk about a resurrected it-wikipedia?--Anacleto 00 (talk) 19:47, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

The shutdown for a day. And no need to remind me we had one too.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:55, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Photo caption correction

Hi, haven't ever tried to edit on wikipedia before, but noticed an error in a photo on the Hoover Dam article.

The one photo is of Frank Crowe and Bureau of Reclamations engineer WALKER ROLLO YOUNG, not Walter. He is a first cousin of mine (several times removed), and here is a link from HooverDamStory.com to confirm.

http://www.hooverdamstory.com/young.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Googlymoogly14 (talk • contribs) 16:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Google confirms that. Don't know if it was miscopied from the source or what. Thanks for the error, nice dam your cousin helped build. I'll make the correction.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:27, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Controversial name?

The so-called controversy about the naming is nothing more than a barrage of political attacks by various democrats of the era against a republican former president. If we consider this controversial, everything in wikipedia that has to do with modern American life will be controversial. I propose we strike the whole thing. 72.86.42.38 (talk) 18:42, 16 December 2012 (UTC)