Talk:Murder of Jill Meagher

Suggested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Canoe1967 (talk) 05:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

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Murder of Jill Meagher → Death of Jill Meagher – Current title is not neutral per WP:NDESC. The current title implies the accused is guilty of murder which is a breach of WP:BLP. Hack (talk) 12:02, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

• Agree fully. I have no hassles at all if it is renamed. - Bilby (talk) 17:56, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

• Shouldn't this article be at Wikinews instead of Wikipedia? —  AjaxSmack  23:32, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

  Yes, this seems malplaced per WP:NOTNEWS. Also, I don't see how the current title is non-neutral; it's painfully clear from the facts that she was, in fact, murdered, even if the current accused was not the culprit. Powers ^T 22:35, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. The title of the article implies only that the person was murdered, not that the accused is the actual perpetrator. If you don't believe me, look at the title. It's not "Murder of Jill Meagher by Adrian Ernest Bayley". Trinitresque (talk) 08:29, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

• Labelling the incident as murder is prejudging the determination of the court. Refer to WP:CRYSTALBALL. Hack (talk) 09:36, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

• No, it's not. The court will decide who murdered Meagher, not whether she was murdered. This death will be considered a murder if Bayley is convicted and if Bayley is aquitted. Whether or not this a murder is a question that is independent of the question of who did it. Trinitresque (talk) 09:42, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

• Strictly speaking, the court does have to determine whether the killing was a murder; it's possible that a decedent was killed legally, in which case it would not be murder (defined as an illegal killing). In this particular case, though, I don't think there's any question she was killed illegally; the only question is who did it. Powers ^T 16:51, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

• Does that mean you're agreeing or disagreeing with me? You seem to be doing both. If you're disagreeing, then my response is, well that's exactly what the definition of murder is: an illegal killing, so there's no reason to move this when it conforms to WP:COMMONNAME. Trinitresque (talk) 22:33, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

  I was just pointing out an error in your reasoning, then explaining why the error doesn't matter (to me), as I agree with your conclusion. Not meaning to be critical, but I didn't want the closer to discount your argument because of a minor error. Powers ^T 14:59, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's possible, while unlikely, that the cause of death was not murder, but some other form of misadventure. The move proposal is a cautious but sensible one at this stage. Once and if a court decides that it's murder, another move can occur. HiLo48 (talk) 04:05, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

If the current accused is found not guilty, does that mean she was not murdered? Surely an unsolved murder is still a murder. If that is not the case, do you need the verdict of a coronial inquest to say a person was murdered by an unknown person? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.2.209 (talk) 00:36, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• Keep While Jill Meagher's death wasn't historic, the march which it sparked, attracting tens of thousands of people was historic. The details of the murder case are not particularly important to this entry. (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doloresdaphne (talk • contribs)

• Keep Up until this point the media and Victorian Government generally hid crime statistics and Melburnians generally didn't care too much either. This event sparked a protest of 30,000 people and an outrage that will change how Melburnians, the media (she worked for ABC aswell) and the Government views such crimes in the future. If this page is removed then we should also consider such entries as "Death of Osama bin Laden", "The Death of Superman" and such like. (UTC)

• Keep How is this any different to entries like the one for the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann or Death of Daniel Morcombe or Death of Caroline Byrne(none are recent entries, had lengthy legal cases with difficulty proving guilt and polarised communities). It is the media and social media that created the interest in the incident, polarised communities and resulted in a greater or renewed awareness about personal safety. The spike in females learning martial arts and self defence following this incident has been enormous. It also created a dialogue between parents, children and friends (male and female) about personal safety at night. People search this site for facts about such incidents so they are informed. If awareness of personal safety via such articles achieves averting another such incident then this article should be gold starred! There are many other incidents over the years that could have an article created or have been created and linked to this one such as "Importance of Learning Self Defence", "Personal Safety at night or on a social occasion", "Disappearance of young females in Australia", "Young female victims of murder in Australia", "Notorious modern day rapists in Australia", "Traits and actions of modern day rapists in Australia over the past 30-40years".