Talk:Israel

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Argentina or Palestine?

The article does not metion that the zionist movement was investigating differnet contries to create a homeland for Jews. For example Argentina was seriously considered, however the zionists backed off fearing that an anti-semetic atmosphere has already developed in that country.

Again, the above is facts that you can find off of any book that talks about the creation of israel. You can also find it on the websites of the jewish zionist movements. For example Theodore Hertzl's book "The Jewish State" states (1896)

Is Palestine or Argentina preferable? The Society will take whatever it is given and whatever Jewish public opinion favors.... Argentina is one of the most fertile countries in the world, extends over a vast area, is sparsely populated, and has a temperate climate. It would be in its own highest interest for the Republic of Argentina to cede us a portion of its territory.... Palestine is our unforgettable historic homeland. The very name would be a marvelously effective rallying cry

Also Grande island New York by Buffalo was proposed as the zionist state. The Isiah 09:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Contradicting numbers

This article claims Israel is 20km2 and ranked 150th while List of countries and outlying territories by total area claims 22km2 and ranked 149th. Can they be verified? eeemess 13:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The area in List of countries and outlying territories by total area includes East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, and also the bodies of water Dead Sea and Kinneret. The figure in this article includes only land and excludes the Golan and East Jerusalem. So, both are accurate. However, I too think that there should be a standard area. -- Template:Country data flagicon Ynhockey ^(Talk) 16:08, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that only the areas that are indisputably part of Israel should be included. I don't know about water vs. land area - that should be determined based on what the criterion for the list is. john k 17:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Dispute

This article does not give Arab view of events. The anti-Semitism and holocaust occurred in Europe committed by Europeans against the European Jews. The Arabs and Palestinian did not play any part in it. So talking about partitioning their land to compensate the European Jews is not negotiable. Essentially, they said it is European problem and should be solved in Europe. Siddiqui 08:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

your objection is totally ridiculous. -- tasc ^talk_deeds 08:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Well give the Arab view. But do it without inflamatory language; give facts, not opinions, and provide citations. Pollinator 08:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, please review WP:NOR and WP:V. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Sidiqui has a point, although he has to accept that Jews always believed it was their right to live in their 'promised land' where some of their holiest sites are. However, I have to show my disatisfaction on how the article misleads the reader by making Israel underground troops as a moraly conscientious militia while fighting Arabs and only acting in self defence (as if the Arabs were the aggressive party). The truth is far from what the article is leading us to believe. Two out of the three massacres committed by Arabs against Jews during the 1948 war were triggered by Jewish atrocities against Arabs. On December 30, 1947, Irgun Zvai Leumi terrorists threw a bomb at an Arab bus stop at the entrance to the Haifa Oil Refinery outside Haifa. Half a dozen Arabs were killed. The Arab workers inside the refinery immediately retaliated by turning on their Jewish coworkers with knives, crowbars, and sticks, killing thirty-nine of them. (In turn, the Haganah responded on the night of December 31 by raiding the nearby Arab village of Balad ash Sheikh, where many of the workers lived, blowing up several dozen houses and killing about sixty Arabs.) Similarly, the Arab irregulars’ attack on the convoy of doctors, nurses, students, and Haganah militiamen making its way through East Jerusalem to Mount Scopus on April 13 was also a retaliation for the assault by Jewish troops on the Arab village of Deir Yassin, just west of Jerusalem, on April 9, 1948, in which about one hundred villagers were killed during the fighting or just afterward. The third and largest Arab atrocity of the war, the massacre by irregulars of dozens of surrendering Haganah troops, including some twenty women, at Kfar Etzion in the Etzion Bloc of settlements just north of Hebron, on May 13, was unprovoked by any immediate Jewish attack or atrocity. But overall, the Jewish forces—Haganah, IZL, Lehi (Lohamei Herut Yisrael, or Freedom Fighters of Israel, or “Stern Gang,” as the British authorities called them), and IDF—committed far more atrocities in 1948 than did Arab forces, if only because they were in a far better position to do so. You also have to take into consideration of how many European Jews were treated in Europe before their arrival in Palestine, so they were effectively emotionally hardened by their mistreatment. Yet the article fails to mention any of these facts. It is true that the Arabs revolted against the idea of Jewish immigration as anyone would naturally revolt against immigration that could change the demography of the region and hence weakening the power of Arab leaders, not taking into consideration the land they owned would suddenly be administered by a foreign jewish party. To make the Arabs appear like the villains is a ridiculous attempt to manipulate the reader but then again the victor always writes the history. Nick Smith 12:50, 4 May 2006.

Can you sight source for any of your statments? Also, you neglect to mention the history of arab oppression of middle eastern jews for centuries. Not to mention your statement "effectively emotionally hardened by their mistreatment" considering that you are talking about 3 million people it seems an unfair generalization. Finally I dont think it is "natural" for people to revolt against immigration.The Isiah 10:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The Isiah, concerning your statement about the "arab oppression of middle eastern jews for centuries", can you give us some sources ? Looking at the pre-1949 arab antismitism, I haven't found yet anything even slightly comparable to the old european antisemitism. There is nothing as well in the "Antisemism" wiki article. Some jews had actually high position at the calif time.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kekel (talk • contribs) 18:49, May 27, 2006 (UTC)

The article actually does no such thing; it portrays Jewish underground organizations as they were - created for the purpose of protecting Jews, but sometimes performing terrorist attacks - as the article clearly outlines. The history in this page is actually fairly short, you can't really say it portrays anyone in any light. Moreover, Siddiqui has been known to make various ludicrous anti-Israeli (and/or pro-Arab) statements in the past. -- Template:Country data flagicon Ynhockey ^(Talk) 15:25, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough Ynhockey, I re-read the paragraph and you're right, although it looslely uses the term violence when in fact it is no different to 'terrorist attacks' we see today in Israel or within the Palestinian territories (whether or not its a suicide bomber does not change the fact that they are terrorist attacks). Possibly someone can add why the Arabs revolted and killed Jews in 1921, for example someone should add the following passage: ' Arab nationalists opposed to the Balfour declaration, the mandate and the Jewish National Home, instigated riots and pogroms against Jews in Jerusalem, Hebron, Jaffa and Haifa killing ............ This violence led to the formation of the Haganah etc.......'. Otherwise its far too random to just write Arabs randomly revolted and killed Jews'. Arabs were not racist nor prejudice towards Jews, in fact as far as I know they lived in relative peace. Please let me know what you think. Out of curiosity, do Palestinian Arabs who were either forced out of their homes or fled before the 1948 war and still hold land deeds have a right to compensation? Nick Smith 16:48, 4 May 2006.

New population figures

The figures in the infobox and the demographics section don't match. Can we please have the latest data, properly referenced?Nomist 15:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

By the way, what about a chart showing the demographic evolution of Israel ?

Ok these are my thoughts:

What I'm wondering is how the Wiki NPOV applies to this article versus other articles. Because, the dehumanization of Jews, and other "undesirables" is clearly stated in the Nazism article. However, in the case of the Palestine conflict, Israel's dehumanization of the Palestinian Arabs is not [if you think that Israel hasn't done anything wrong to the Palestinians then you have a skewed point of view. For more information see Ted Swedenburg's scholarly articles or http://www.soci.niu.edu/~phildept/Kapitan/history.html]

Therefore, what I as an American and non-Palestinian [but a person who reads European newspapers and has looked into the murder of Rachel Corrie, James Miller, and others by Israeli soldiers] have come to the conclusion that the NPOV is still skewed to be Pro-Israeli which is what the American media is giving us. The Corrie and Miller case should get some note on the site since its a direct killing of Americans or British who show solidarity with the Palestinian humanitarian crisis.

Once finals are over I'll try to put together some information using the forementioned sources and also http://www.btselem.org/ which has facts\figures relating to casualties caused by both sides and reveals that Israel has killed more Palestinians, espcially children, then vice versa (the organization is run by Israeli and other Jews and can be read in Hebrew as well for those who want to check it out.)

151.205.180.108 00:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC) SafireRain

• "Dehumanization"? The deliberate and planned policy of exterminating millions is "dehumanization"? As is Israeli policy toward Palestine? Oy. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Israel and both terrorism and counter-terrorism

I would like to see more on Israeli policy with what it terms as terrorism and its solutions and also what is termed as Israeli state terrorism and the justifications for it. 72.57.230.179 00:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Israeli unilatteral border settlement.

The prime minister today said he would draw up the borders with or without Palestinian support. I don't see why the West Bank didn't remain with Jordan and why Gaza with Egypt. The Palestinians have demonstrated time and time again that they can't govern themselves nor live with others. see Israeli and Lebanese history with the PLO... not to mention Jordanian.12.15.7.70

Promised Land?

There is little mention of the promised land I would like an Israeli Jew to tell me in their opinion what constitutes the borders of the Jewish promised land? Thank you. Zakaria mohyeldin 09:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)