Talk:Elvis Presley

Use of "Scare quotes" in the lead in contradiction with WP:MOS

• Regarding the text string: "One of the most significant cultural icons of the 20th century, he is often referred to as "the King of Rock and Roll", or simply, "the King"."

Per WP:BADEMPHASIS: "Quotation marks for emphasis of a single word or phrase, or scare quotes, are discouraged." Per MOS:ITALIC: "Italics may be used to draw attention to an important word or phrase within a sentence".

I have tried to make the lead MoS compliant, but User:Pstoller has reverted me. So, per WP:BRD, I was bold, he reverted, now lets discuss. GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 20:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

The usage of scare quotes is not contrary to MoS; only the usage of scare quotes for emphasis. That is not why these phrases are in scare quotes. The usages are controversial. Elvis is the "so-called 'King of Rock & Roll,'" a label that does not sit well with many African-Americans and scholars of 20th century popular music. Elvis himself rejected the label, "the King," saying that there was only one King (meaning Jesus Christ); others Christians have objected on the same basis. Thus, the usage of scare quotes in the lead is MoS-compliant, while removing them effectively removes important meaning from the article. Pstoller (talk) 20:57, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

It is in no way controversial to refer to him as the King. The vast majority of WP:RS call him that. I hear you that it might be moderately contentious to some, but are you really serious? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 21:07, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• From the Rock and Roll hall of fame: "Elvis Presley is the undisputed King of Rock and Roll."
• www.elvis.com uses the moniker: "Elvis Presley: Official site of the King of Rock and Roll". GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 21:13, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
• From allmusic: "Aliases: The King, The King of Rock 'n' Roll". GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 21:17, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
• From the Encyclopedia Britannica: "American popular singer widely known as the King of Rock and Roll and one of rock music’s dominant performers from the mid-1950s until his death." GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 21:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
• From Rolling Stone: "While certainly other artists preceded him to the alter of rock & roll, he is indisputably The King." GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 21:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

How can it be "contentious to some" and "in no way controversial"? Are you really serious? Yes, the usages are extremely common, and virtually certain to remain so: otherwise, they would not belong in the article, much less the lead. (And, FYI, I have argued that here in the past with one or more users who questioned whether these aliases were sufficiently common to merit inclusion.) However, for many who trace rock & roll's history back before 1955, the very idea of crowning as "the King" a white late-comer to a black musical innovation is more than mildly contentious. That he has the nicknames (as per Britannica and AllMusic) is in itself indisputable; whether it's appropriate that he has them, however, has been (and still is) disputed—regardless of what the R&RHoF, Elvis.com, or anyone else with a commercial interest in his legend has to say about it. Pstoller (talk) 22:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• From Elvis After Elvis: The Posthumous Career of a Living Legend by Gilbert B. Rodman: "[W]hile Elvis was certainly popular with blacks, it was whites who crowned him King. A common thread running through virtually all the critiques of Elvis's coronation … is the accusation that those who put Elvis on his royal pedestal have been far too quick to reject black rock 'n' roll artists—Little Richard, Chuck Berry, James Brown, Fats Domino, and Bo Diddley are among those most frequently mentioned—as legitimate contenders for the crown. Regardless of whom Elvis's critics offer as alternate candidates for his throne, however, the criticisms leveled at Elvis's coronation point to very serious, and very real, flaws in the ways in which the history of rock 'n' roll has come to be accepted and understood."
• From The Columbia Guide to African American History Since 1939 by Robert L. Harris, Jr. and Rosalyn Terborg-Penn: "Elvis provides a case study in the minstrel appropriation of African American styles that works like Eric Lott's Love and Theft and W. T. Lhamon's Raising Cain: Blackface Performance from Jim Crow to Hip-Hop have placed at the center of American cultural history. Jet magazine and almost every black person who actually knew him have absolved Elvis of personal racism. His coronation by the white media, however, angered those who knew that Little Richard, Chuck Berry, and Fats Domino, not to mention Louis Jordan, Muddy Waters, and Howlin' Wolf, could make equally legitimate claims to the throne. It wasn't the first or last time the music industry bestowed the crown on a white contender—or pretender. In the 1920s, the music industry anointed the aptly-named Paul Whiteman as the "King of Jazz," and similar patterns have recurred like clockwork, arising in relation to sixties rock (the Rolling Stones), disco (the Bee Gees), R&B (Michael Bolton), funk (the Red Hot Chili Peppers), and hip-hop (Kid Rock and Eminem).

Pstoller (talk) 22:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Quotation marks are not necessarily undesirable "scare quotes". It's perfectly normal, correct and desirable to use quotation marks around Presley's nicknames in this case because he was not, in fact, a King. He was simply called - by some people, sometimes - "The King", as an informal term of approbation. If the quotation marks were removed it would suggest that he was actually a King. Outside the US, such people as Kings do, in fact, exist, and Presley was not one of them. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I'll buy that argument, as well. Pstoller (talk) 23:36, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Since this is really quite a minute disagreement on style, I'll concede the point for the sake of compromise, though I stand by my assertion that calling Elvis the King does not require Wikipedia to distance itself from the claim with "scare quotes", its one of the least contentious claims one could ever make about a rock star, IMO. GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 01:16, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

First, I thank you for your concession. Second: it's certainly not contentious from the POV of said rock star's most ardent fans, though Presley himself repeatedly asked people not to call him that. On the other hand, let me be clear that I don't favor injecting the quoted arguments into this article, nor do I necessarily agree with all of the components (or all of the conclusions) of those arguments. I merely think it behooves Wikipedia to acknowledge that such arguments exist; and that, while they may not be mainstream arguments, neither are they especially obscure. Scare quotes are just about the most minimal nod WP can make to that perspective. Beyond that, while I think there is a place on WP to explore this issue, I think we can all agree that this article isn't it. Pstoller (talk) 01:48, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

"He has been inducted into multiple music halls of fame."

The last sentence from the lead: "He has been inducted into multiple music halls of fame."

• I suggest this should be improved by adding some detail to an otherwise vague assertion. Its my understanding that Elvis is the only person currently in the Country, R&B (maybe its Blues) and Rock halls of fame. Can anyone confirm this with an accepted WP:RS? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 23:36, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a good call. I'm looking for a source. I can confirm that he was inducted into the R&R HoF in 1986 (first year); the Country Music HoF in 1998; the Gospel HoF in 2001; the UK Music HoF in 2004 (first year); and the Rockabilly HoF in 2007. (This last was awarded ten years late because the Rockabilly HoF "didn't believe Graceland had the proper respect for our efforts.") Elvis.com states that Presley was the first person to have been inducted into the R&R, Country, and Gospel HoFs, but doesn't say if he's still the only one.

He has not been inducted into the Blues HoF, but he and Sam Phillips received a joint W. C. Handy Award in 1984 for "Keeping the Blues Alive in Rock 'n' Roll". He is not in the R&B HoF, which had its first round of inductions in 2013. Pstoller (talk) 23:17, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually Johnny Cash is the only other artist besides Elvis to be inducted to the R&R, country, rockabilly and gospel halls of fame. Cash also has extra recognition for inductions to both the national Songwriters Hall of Fame and the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 23:27, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

So, instead of:

He has been inducted into multiple music halls of fame.

perhaps:

He is one of only two artists (the other being Johnny Cash) to have been inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, the Country Music Hall of Fame, the Gospel Hall of Fame, and the Rockabilly Hall of Fame.

It's the lead, so it doesn't call for a citation. Thoughts? Pstoller (talk) 23:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I like it, but 1) if the "new" material isn't currently sourced in the article body, then it should not be included in the lead, and 2) "Presley was the first person to have been inducted into the R&R, Country, and Gospel HoFs" seems better than dragging in that piece of information about Cash; the lead should be Elvis-centric. Any thoughts? GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 23:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, both of y'all bring interesting points. I'm gonna have to think about this harder lol BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 23:26, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, I'm flexible on the Cash datum; its certainly interesting enough, but I am correct that anything new that we add to the lead must first be added to the article body, which isn't a problem of course. GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 23:30, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I actually agree about cutting the Cash datum; I put it in thinking that his name didn't belong in the lead. Either way, you're right that the statement should be sourced in the body; but, while the individual inductions are already sourced in the "Since 1977" section, the "first" and "one of only two" claims aren't, and I haven't yet seen a reliable source for either. (I have no doubt that both claims are true; I just haven't found anyone to quote.) Pstoller (talk) 01:20, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Featured Article - No way!

This is one of the worst articles about a major 20th Century figure that I have seen on Wikipedia, probably THE worst. I came here looking for some facts about E.P. Specifically, his marriages and children. This information should be available in tabular form. Instead, I see some reference to Priscilla Beaulieu which as far as I can tell was NEVER her name. That's it. No kids, no girl friends, no boy friends (if some other sources have any merit). Not even dates for marriage! Wow. While you're at it, I also suggest trying to understand that writing something like: "On March 24, Presley was inducted..." is really really bad form. Try:"On March 24, 1958, Presley was ..." Does anybody really think the month and day eliminates the need for a year? Does anybody really think that the day matters at all? I suggest that the introduction should contain a skeleton of his arc, both biographical and as an artist. Born 1935 in..., raised in...,first sang..., first record..., first #1, Gold records, Platinum, Net worth at death, Marriage(s) Children, siblings. Later years drug addiction, death. Short and sweet.72.172.1.135 (talk) 07:07, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Well I hate to break it down to you but uh Priscilla's name was indeed Priscilla Beaulieu. She was born Priscilla Wagner but she was renamed Beaulieu when she met Elvis. Also what are you even talking about? LOL BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 19:22, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm with BrothaTimothy on, "What are you even talking about?" Elvis Presley is a popular singer and cultural icon. He is not primarily famous for his one marriage (which is discussed in the article) and one child (who is mentioned). The date of his marriage to Priscilla Beaulieu (she had been "Beaulieu" since age two; she didn't known she'd ever been "Wagner" until age 13) is given as May 1, 1967, and the date of their divorce as October 9, 1973. At least nine other key romantic attachments are also mentioned. None of this information is so important to an understanding of Presley's life and work that it "should be available in tabular form," although I wouldn't object to seeing Priscilla and Lisa Marie added to the info box. "Net worth at death" is, frankly, trivia for people who "keep score" between celebrities; it's not as if Presley were J. P. Morgan, nor even a pop star whose finances were as controversial as Michael Jackson's. Of course, if you can craft a clear, concise, and relevant segment on Presley's finances before, at, and after his death, by all means do so. And, yes, it would improve the section on Presley's military service to add a year to the opening sentence (which you could simply have done); however, the "1958-1960" date range in the heading makes it clear that the year of Presley's induction is 1958.

The intro already contains a skeleton of Presley's arc, with most of the details you mention—including all the important ones. Most of the other details are in this article, while some (such as RIAA certifications) are in linked articles dedicated to such information. I have no doubt that this article could be improved. However, no matter how good the article gets, it will still require reading the entire article, not just the intro, to know what's actually in it. Pstoller (talk) 21:56, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Bisexual allegations

Hi im not sure where to put this as but To add to what Santamoly stated can this page - Personal relationships of Elvis Presley - be either edited to remove the bisexual allegations or the whole page be deleted thanks Elvis was only into women this is a fact.92.25.213.152 (talk) 20:08, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

elvis dominated billboard

Joel whitburn ( official billboard expert)

Puts elvis by far as the number one artist on billboard 1955-2009

Top 100 artists Elvis 7,537 points The beatles 4,611 points Madonna 4,317 points Elton john 4176 points Mariah carey 3,942 points Stevie wonder 3,470 points Michael jackson 3,410

Billboard top 40 hits Joel whitburn Ninth edition Page 870

Please put in the beginning that elvis is still an unmatched chart performer who dominates billboard .

Thank you

67.102.252.66 (talk) 19:48, 1 October 2013 (UTC)