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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 70.106.152.64 (talk) at 03:07, 16 October 2013 (→‎alternate texts for closing chorale). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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DYK nom Template:Did you know nominations/Du sollt Gott, deinen Herren, lieben, BWV 77

alternate texts for closing chorale

As discussed on p.180
http://books.google.com/books?id=m3C67i5UZj8C&pg=PA180
of "Analyzing Bach Cantatas" by Eric Thomas Chafe (c: 2000) , Oxford University Press ,
http://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-Bach-Cantatas-Eric-Chafe/dp/019512099X
the text of the final chorale of bwv077 was not indicated by Bach , and may be "Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich" or "Herr Jesu ! du stellst selbsten dich" (+more) or , alternatively , "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir" (+more) depending on which of two chorale texts by David Denicke was chosen by the music publisher (see the reference listed at google books) .

I note that the current wikipedia article cites a different (and earlier) source for the chosen text , but I am unable to help in reconciling this difference .

The issue of the chorale text is not just "academic" , since at least one recording , that by Gustav Leonhardt (c: 1978) , and re-published by Teldec in 1999
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005Q0UTK0/
as part of their Bach 2000 compilation , used "Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich" . (The cited amazon product is not a CD , but contains the same music as the corresponding CD from the Bach 2000 release) . Other recordings have been made with the alternative text "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir" .

The Leonhardt version is online here ... just the final chorale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPudq8WknB4&t=890

A Helmuth Rilling (probably c: 1983) version is also online here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlUycfBPcx8&t=912
but it uses the text "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir"
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Cantatas-77-79-Rilling/dp/B00003OP4S/

As the text of the final chorale of bwv077 is not "unique" , and there may be two or more "accepted" choices (one of which has 2 variants for the first line , which text is usually "the title" of the chorale) , the wikipedia article might be improved if these details were explained , and the 2 variants of the opening line of the alternative (older ?) chorale were listed ...

I leave it to the wikipedia editors to decide if and how to use this suggestion , and to make any changes they deem necessary to the article .

mgt220 at yahoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 (talk) 01:09, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That makes sense. Will you perhaps make changes yourself, or word them here? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:26, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]


I have done some further investigation , which may be helpful .

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV77.htm
lists the 7 recordings known (by that site) for this cantata ... 6 of these are part of [attempted] complete Bach Cantata sets , and are also listed on the article page as selected recordings ; the set by Emiko Ohmura is sung in Japanese , and the only reference I have does not document the chorus text .

For the remaining 6 recordings , the final chorale text is :
Leonhardt - Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich
Suzuki - Du stellst, mein Jesu, selber dich + zum Vorbild
Rilling - Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir (trk 6)
Leusink - Herr, durch den Glauben ( ... ? ) (disk 3)
Gardiner - Ach Herr, ich wollte ja dein Recht
Koopman - Herr Jesu, der du angezündet
(I think I have corrected a small spelling error here and in Koopman's liner notes ; I also found many internet links that put Suzuki's final choral text with Koopman's CD - probably in error !)

That is "2 votes" for "Herr, durch ..." , "approximately" 2 votes for "Du stellst..." , and 2 other text choices which were not mentioned by Eric Chafe in his book (above) .

Even if my "research" is correct (and there are good reasons to doubt the accuracy of track listings provided at sales sites , which I used , except with the Koopman version) , wikipedia does not use "research" , but "authoritative" published data . The book by Chafe is likely to be reliable as a resource , and I suggest shaping the wikipedia notes according to its observations , with the understanding that no conductor is bound to follow him .

Also , the current History and words section of the article does say something relevant . I suggest breaking out that remark into the start of a second paragraph in the section , and combining with added detail from the Chafe book ... For instance :

current text :
The text of the closing chorale is lost. Karl Friedrich Zelter suggested the eighth stanza of David Denicke's chorale Wenn einer alle Ding verstünd (1657).[3] Werner Neumann suggested the eighth stanza of Denicke's O Gottes Sohn, Herr Jesu Christ (1657).[4]

possible new text :
The text of the closing chorale used by Bach is lost. Karl Friedrich Zelter suggested the eighth stanza of David Denicke's chorale "Wenn einer alle Ding verstünd" (1657) [3] , which choice appears in the old Bach Edition and has as its first line "Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich" [34c] . Werner Neumann , a contributor to the new Bach Edition , suggested the eighth stanza of Denicke's "O Gottes Sohn, Herr Jesu Christ" (1657) [4] which has as its first line "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir" [34c] . Either of these first lines , or other selections made by musical directors , may appear as the title of the closing chorale .

return to current text :
Bach first performed the cantata on 22 August 1723.[1]

I am using the clumsy [34c] to reference page 180 of Chafe's book which I cited in my prior comments .

I also wonder if , in the Scoring and structure section , the listing should be
6. choral: original text lost ; see the above section for possibilities .
instead of the current selection of a specific title .

I will be content if you are able to use any part of these suggestions .
However , I am really reluctant to edit the article page .

mgt220 at yahoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 (talk) 01:50, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]


PS: I should probably have said editor of , not contributor to , in the suggested new text :

Werner Neumann , editor of the new Bach Edition ...

according to the Neumann article . Sorry for the oversight ... mgt220

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