Talk:Du sollt Gott, deinen Herren, lieben, BWV 77

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alternate texts for closing chorale

As discussed on p.180
http://books.google.com/books?id=m3C67i5UZj8C&pg=PA180
of "Analyzing Bach Cantatas" by Eric Thomas Chafe (c: 2000) , Oxford University Press ,
http://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-Bach-Cantatas-Eric-Chafe/dp/019512099X
the text of the final chorale of bwv077 was not indicated by Bach , and may be "Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich" or "Herr Jesu ! du stellst selbsten dich" (+more) or , alternatively , "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir" (+more) depending on which of two chorale texts by David Denicke was chosen by the music publisher (see the reference listed at google books) .

I note that the current wikipedia article cites a different (and earlier) source for the chosen text , but I am unable to help in reconciling this difference .

The issue of the chorale text is not just "academic" , since at least one recording , that by Gustav Leonhardt (c: 1978) , and re-published by Teldec in 1999
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005Q0UTK0/
as part of their Bach 2000 compilation , used "Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich" . (The cited amazon product is not a CD , but contains the same music as the corresponding CD from the Bach 2000 release) . Other recordings have been made with the alternative text "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir" .

The Leonhardt version is online here ... just the final chorale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPudq8WknB4&t=890

A Helmuth Rilling (probably c: 1983) version is also online here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlUycfBPcx8&t=912
but it uses the text "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir"
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Cantatas-77-79-Rilling/dp/B00003OP4S/

As the text of the final chorale of bwv077 is not "unique" , and there may be two or more "accepted" choices (one of which has 2 variants for the first line , which text is usually "the title" of the chorale) , the wikipedia article might be improved if these details were explained , and the 2 variants of the opening line of the alternative (older ?) chorale were listed ...

I leave it to the wikipedia editors to decide if and how to use this suggestion , and to make any changes they deem necessary to the article .

mgt220 at yahoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 (talk) 01:09, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

That makes sense. Will you perhaps make changes yourself, or word them here? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:26, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I have done some further investigation , which may be helpful .

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/BWV77.htm
lists the 7 recordings known (by that site) for this cantata ... 6 of these are part of [attempted] complete Bach Cantata sets , and are also listed on the article page as selected recordings ; the set by Emiko Ohmura is sung in Japanese , and the only reference I have does not document the chorus text .

For the remaining 6 recordings , the final chorale text is :
Leonhardt - Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich
Suzuki - Du stellst, mein Jesu, selber dich + zum Vorbild
Rilling - Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir (trk 6)
Leusink - Herr, durch den Glauben ( ... ? ) (disk 3)
Gardiner - Ach Herr, ich wollte ja dein Recht
Koopman - Herr Jesu, der du angezündet
(I think I have corrected a small spelling error here and in Koopman's liner notes ; I also found many internet links that put Suzuki's final choral text with Koopman's CD - probably in error !)

That is "2 votes" for "Herr, durch ..." , "approximately" 2 votes for "Du stellst..." , and 2 other text choices which were not mentioned by Eric Chafe in his book (above) .

Even if my "research" is correct (and there are good reasons to doubt the accuracy of track listings provided at sales sites , which I used , except with the Koopman version) , wikipedia does not use "research" , but "authoritative" published data . The book by Chafe is likely to be reliable as a resource , and I suggest shaping the wikipedia notes according to its observations , with the understanding that no conductor is bound to follow him .

Also , the current History and words section of the article does say something relevant . I suggest breaking out that remark into the start of a second paragraph in the section , and combining with added detail from the Chafe book ... For instance :

current text :
The text of the closing chorale is lost. Karl Friedrich Zelter suggested the eighth stanza of David Denicke's chorale Wenn einer alle Ding verstünd (1657).[3] Werner Neumann suggested the eighth stanza of Denicke's O Gottes Sohn, Herr Jesu Christ (1657).[4]

possible new text :
The text of the closing chorale used by Bach is lost. Karl Friedrich Zelter suggested the eighth stanza of David Denicke's chorale "Wenn einer alle Ding verstünd" (1657) [3] , which choice appears in the old Bach Edition and has as its first line "Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich" [34c] . Werner Neumann , a contributor to the new Bach Edition , suggested the eighth stanza of Denicke's "O Gottes Sohn, Herr Jesu Christ" (1657) [4] which has as its first line "Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir" [34c] . Either of these first lines , or other selections made by musical directors , may appear as the title of the closing chorale .

return to current text :
Bach first performed the cantata on 22 August 1723.[1]

I am using the clumsy [34c] to reference page 180 of Chafe's book which I cited in my prior comments .

I also wonder if , in the Scoring and structure section , the listing should be
6. choral: original text lost ; see the above section for possibilities .
instead of the current selection of a specific title .

I will be content if you are able to use any part of these suggestions .
However , I am really reluctant to edit the article page .

mgt220 at yahoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 (talk) 01:50, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

PS: I should probably have said editor of , not contributor to , in the suggested new text :

Werner Neumann , editor of the new Bach Edition ...

according to the Neumann article . Sorry for the oversight ... mgt220 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.152.64 (talk) 03:07, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I tried, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:41, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks ! You have made a definite improvement to the article , now that it displays the title text of the two versions of the final chorale that are listed in the "old" and "new" Bach Editions . Listeners who have heard any of the 4 suggested recordings by Leonhardt , Suzuki , Rilling , or Leusink , will find a matching title text . But I am concerned that still leaves listeners of suggested recordings by Gardiner and Koopman (and possibly others , in future) with a "potential inconsistency" .

Isn't there something more we can say without running afoul of the wikipedia "no original research" policy ? For instance ,

1. Choral: Du sollt Gott, deinen Herren, lieben
2. Recitativo (bass): So muß es sein! (substituting ß for ss ?)
3. Aria (soprano): Mein Gott, ich liebe dich von Herzen
4. Recitativo (tenor): Gib mir dabei, mein Gott! ein Samariterherz
5. Aria (alto): Ach, es bleibt in meiner Liebe
6. Choral: (text options)
   1. Du stellst, Herr Jesu, selber dich ;
   2. Herr, durch den Glauben wohn in mir ;
   3. (other choices have been made by conductors) .

Admittedly the last line may "confront" the policy , but it is at least "verifiable" , in that we have the PDF copy of the liner notes from Koopman's volume 8 , with bwv077 (NB p.75)
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Rec-BIG/Koopman-C08-1c%5BErato-3CD%5D.pdf
And this 3-part description would remain both comprehensive and true , regardless of whether recordings with unanticipated choices are issued in future , or not .

Also , I have examined references 3 and 4 . They are (especially ref.3) surprisingly "empty of expected content" . That makes page 180 of the Chafe book look like a "helpful" reference
http://books.google.com/books?id=m3C67i5UZj8C&pg=PA180
since (at least) it does present the full German text of the old and new Bach Edition suggestions for readers to examine ... What do you think of adding Chafe to the list of references (along with current reference 3) ? Details of the Chafe book (for a citation) are listed by Amazon.com

The audio of Koopman's final chorale can be "sampled" at this Amazon page (disk 3 , track 19) . The sampled words are a bit difficult to follow , partly because they begin on the 5\th line of the text , and the liner notes don't conform to the "phrasing" , as sung . I have taken the liberty of rewriting those last 3 lines (as sung) ; in the revised text of the Koopman version :

Herr Jesu, der du angezündet, 
das Fünklein in mir Schwachen, 
Was sich vom Glauben in mir findt, 
du wallst es stärker machen. 
Was du gefangen an, (/) valiführ 
bis an das End (/) daß dort bei dir 
auf Glauben folg das Schauen.  

I have put (/) to indicate the line-breaks I ignored in the text of the PDF liner notes . (Given the probable "spelling error" I discovered in the first line already , and my inability to find another (more authoritative) copy of this text online , I can't be fully confident in its accuracy) .

Just one more observation : isn't the last line in the History and words section redundant ? (Sorry , I seem to have overlooked that when suggesting we keep it earlier) .

I look forward to your response . mgt220