Talk:Svetlana Khorkina

technique

Khorkina (II) - A straddled Shaposhnikova with a ½ turn to catch the high bar. {Shaposhnikova - From handstand facing the high bar, the gymnast does a free hip, then releases the bar and flies backward to catch the high bar above her head.}

http://www.usgyms.net/bars_skills.htm should i bother to add this link? CheeseLover 02:55, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Isn't there a technique on the uneven bars named after her?

--Aesopian 15:47, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, there is. The nature of the movement is unknown to me, however. --Cantus 00:14, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)

Moreover, she blew away her chances for gold in the event by flubbing this very technique, ironically enough. Having only taken a few years of gymnastics, and prior to the technique's invention, I'm not certain of the specifics—I'll research it for the article when I get a bit more time, hopefully next week. Austin Hair 04:12, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)

It shouldt be that hard to get a picture of her, some one whould get a picture of her doing her famous uneven bar routine ---MaximusNukeage 04:48, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A lot of POV in this

This article really needs a serious cleaning to meet Wikipedia standards. While there is a lot of factual information, it has been written with the voice of a fan site.

I've attempted to remove as much of the POV and provide a more balanced view, but I am not really an expert on the subject. There were strange omissions (her 8th place finish in 2004 on the bars and just about any other time she didn't medal was left out. I think that needs correction (maybe a table with her major competitive history would be appropriate). Also, cites are needed especially for those things that are attribited to her. --MaKaM 23:25, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've tried to cut most of the remaining POV language from the narrative. But someone will have to eventually cite the major points -- I cut a lot of material that speaks to her state of mind that had no citation. Those were hopelessly POV -- as was the tendency to call her by her nickname. -- anon.

Nominating this article for a neutrality check. There is still POV in the first section and some scattered thorughout the article. 68.248.7.209 22:14, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Gold in Three Olympic Games

Quote: "Khorkina became the second female gymnast in history (after Ludmilla Tourischeva) to medal in her third Olympic games."

According to the IOC database, four women had done this before Tourischeva:

1) Eva Vechtova-Bosakova (TCH) -- team bronze 1952, BB silver 1956, BB gold and team silver 1960.

2) Polina Astakhova (URS) -- team gold and portable apparatus team bronze 1956, UB and team golds plus FX silver and AA bronze 1960, and the same in 1964 as in 1960.

3) Larisa Latynina (URS) -- lots and lots in 1956-1960-1964, of course.

4) Vera Caslavska (TCH) -- team bronze 1960, then four medals in 1964 and six in 1968.

Is there a reason not to count these four?

OMHalck 02:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, actually. That's the ancient era of gymnastics, (Pre-1972.) The old era is 1973-1984. The golden era is 1985-1996, and the modern era is 1997-2005. With the overhaul in Code of Points in 2006, i don't know what they call the new era and why 1997-2005 would be called the "modern era" when it's clearly of the past. who knows!--69.136.10.51 21:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what era of gymnastics we're talking about because the words "in history" were used. "In history" means "all eras".Miloluvr (talk) 04:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. One can't discount the achievements of these gymnasts simply because they happened a long time ago. They were still under the FIG and women's artistic gymnastics and count as a matter of historical record. Not to mention that Tourischeva's first two Olympics happened before 1973, and those are recognized in the article. DanielEng (talk) 06:12, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Code of Points - 6 or 8?

Noticed in the article's 2nd paragraph the statement:

She has an unprecedented 6 moves named after her in the Artistic Gymnastics Code of Points, more than any other gymnast.

and in the Major Achievements | Original Skills section, it states and lists 8 skills:

Sventlana has an unprecendented 8 skills in the Code of Points, at least one on each apparatus.

Are these refering to the same thing? If so, I presume 8 is correct since 8 are listed?

Keramos 17:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I've noticed a few factual inaccuracies in addition to the 6 vs. 8 skills problem.

Early Career: Her first international medal was a silver at the 1992 Jr. European Team Championships rather than at 1994 Brisbane Worlds. The European Championships have always been considered an "international meet".

Competitive Highlights: I believe the chart shows that she only won the Russian National Championships once. She won the All Around an unprecedented eight times, the last being 2003, IIRC. It might be helpful to note that the Russian National Championships were sometimes held twice per year during the years you state. It might also help to note that the European Championships were held only biennially during the years you state.

Major Achievements: Consider noting that she competed in ten consecutive world championships, medaling in all but one (2002 Debrecen).

Original Skills: "Khorkina II" in the COP refers only to her second eponymous vault. Her second skills on other apparatuses are simply called "Khorkina", as well, not "Khorkina II". Also, you list her first Khorkina beam skill as a "flip". It is a gainer full-twisting back handspring (gainer Kochetkova). 72.130.144.24 03:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Claims without citations

Some of the claims made in this articles need to be verified because they seem to contradict what history has written. First the claim, "Khorkina has received some criticism however for her lack of difficulty on floor, vault and beam and for poor form." While the poor form can be understood by looking at her late career executions of her Khorkina II vault, this is not enough make that judgement. Remember that she consistently medalled at the Worlds in events other that UB and AA. And to win AA you can't only be exceptionally good on one apparatus.

Secondly, the claim that she was anorexic is quite questionable. I would believe it to be almost impossible to compete at the level of elite gymnast (still winning) and be visibly emaciated from anorexia. I believe that it was more likely that she and her coach decided she lose some weight to lessen the stress on her body (injuries perhaps--this is done in other sports) or to gain more air time for her skills. She never was a powerful vaulter or tumbler like Amanar or Dos Santos, so less weight with the some amount of muscular strength may have enabled her to remain competitive in her later years.

---

Oh, but Svetlana was visibly emaciated from something at the Olympic Games in Atlanta, and yes, her skills did seem impeded at these games which seems to suggest she was as unhealthy and weak as she looked. The idea that an already thin person should lose weight to reduce stress on their body is unsound, especially considering that her weakness caused her several falls from the bars where she could have been severly injured, or killed. Gymnastics is a sport that has been plagued with anorexia, and when one of it's tops stars looks as deathly thin as Svetlana did in Atlanta, people will talk. There are currently no rules forbiding a gymnast to compete in the Olympic games if she is anorexic, and many people feel that that should change.

Agreed- unfortunately the sport has had many, many people who have competed while working through various stages of eating disorders. Kathy Johnson, Cathy Rigby, Christy Henrich, Erica Stokes, et al are some of the more visible examples but there are others too.

Having said that, I will also say that I've never seen or read any concrete proof or verification that Khorkina was anorexic. She did look very different at the 2004 Olympics than she did at the 1996 or 2000 Games, and as I recall, there were comments made about her gaunt appearance in the press (Bela Karolyi made at least one remark about it). However, that was all speculation and conjecture. Neither Khorkina nor her coaches or teammates ever verified this, nor was there any third party proof of an eating disorder. We can suspect it, and we might believe it happened but unless it can be actually properly sourced it can't be included. If Khorkina ever steps forward herself and says anything about it in the press there will be a source, but until then it's original research, it's impossible to cite as per Wiki policies, and there'd be problems leaving it in the article. DanielEng 06:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Svetlana was visibly skeletal in her later competitions. There can be truthful of the fact that the world watched as she performed with significant weight loss but gave no explanation to any health issue. Sveta did begin to fall in events, even on skills that she herself created and this was uncharacteristic for her, so it can be asked whether the weight loss affected her strength and balance. Just because an athlete "competes" with an eating disorder, it should not be assumed that they have conquered the illness or have even started therapy, so the comment above seems uniformed on the illness in question. It is well known that many athletes struggle with this issue, but do not get help and do not go public for many years after leaving the sport. However, to acknowledge that the illness surrounds this sport and does contribute to falls and injuries (such as the falls and injuries documented in Khorkina's history) and that Khorkina looked visibly ill is in no way a defamatory statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.137.150.35 (talk) 18:32, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Another issue that is sure to be examined in the years to come are the responsibilities coaches and countries have towards the health and safety of their athletes as well as the peer pressure that is present in anorexia. Specifically, Khorkina was not only approved for competition, but she was also the team captain. History may well ask why the Russian Gymnastics federation did not intervene in Sveta's obvious health crisis and why they felt she (if she indeed had anorexia) was still a good role model for the younger gymnasts they placed in her care. 69.137.150.35 (talk)

False and unwarranted claims made in intro

First of all, there is a factual error in the intro to this Khorkina page. Larissa Latynina was NOT the 1966 World All-Around Champion at the age of 28. Neither was she 28 when she got her last world aa champ medal, nor was it in 1966. Her last major all-around title was at the 1962 World Championships when she was most likely 27, if the almost always reliable Gymn-Forum biography of her (http://www.gymn-forum.net/bios/women/latynina.html) is correct, because she did not turn 28 in that year until December 27th.

Also, neither is it professional nor is it accurate or quantifiable to state in an unqualified fashion "(Khorkina) is the most successful female gymnast of all time". She was NEVER an olympic all-around champion (which is the greatest possible medal to receive in the sport), she NEVER led her capable Russian team to an Olympic (or even World) Team Title, and she also was NEVER champion at the World or Olympic level on more than 2 of the 4 individual apparatuses. Those are all FACTS, and to call ANYBODY the most successful gymnast ever and not consider those FACTS is to act out of sheer ignorance.

There are quite a few gymnasts who have a more respectable olympic medal haul than Khorkina, actually. Khorkina has only two individual olympic gold medals whereas Caslavska has 7, Latynina has 6, and Comaneci has five (and there are several others who have as many or more than Khorkina). Khorkina also has only 4 individual olympic medals of ANY colour whereas Latynina has 14, Caslavska has 8, Comaneci has 7, and there are many others who have as many as or more than Khorkina.

It is true that Khorkina does have quite a few distinctions: more major european/world/olympic aa titles or medals than anybody, more moves named after her than anybody, and overall medal haul that is probably equalled or surpassed only by Latynina, but there are some serious, glaring weaknesses in her overall profile of success, enough to where it cannot simply be stated that she is the most successful of all time. That statement needs to be qualified or omitted altogether.

I think it's time to clean this entry up and make it less biased and more respectable.

Miloluvr (talk) 02:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

True enough. This article has been up for a NPOV check for some time, and there are definitely some major errors and POV issues here. I've changed the into on Latynina because you're right, she would have been 27 and it would have been 1962. It's fair to say that Khorkina was one of the outstanding gymnasts of her generation, but you're right, there are many others with more impressive medal counts (in addition to the ones you've named, I especially wouldn't forget Daniela Silivas, with 6 Olympic medals in one Games, Shannon Miller, Simona Amanar, Milo, etc.).

Anyway, I've changed the information on Latynina. I don't have the energy to get into rewriting this article right now, but I do agree that it needs to happen, and will support changes to that effect. Best, DanielEng (talk) 05:25, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Daniel...I just wanted to clarify something, sort of as an apology. I wrote what I wrote in general to add discussion to the page. I am actually a known detractor of Khorkina, but I am not trying to destroy the page. I merely found a few factual errors, plus to call her, especially in such an unqualified fashion, "the greatest gymnast ever" (or however it was said) is incredibly biased. That being said, I have absolutely no problem with her, at least as far as her results are concerned, being called one of the greatest of her generation, and actually, I would say that, in terms of sheer euro/world/olympic results combined, she is actually the greatest of her generation BY FAR, if you base it sheerly on medal results at those games. However, that's still an opinion. And I can't say that I'm 100% impartial on everything that I write. And yes, I am a Wiki-newbie. Anyway, your response to what I posted was very good-natured, and I just wanted to let you know that, and some of the toning down of the claims made on the page have already exceeded what I suggested or even expected, just so you'll know. Anyway, thanks a lot for your civil response, and definitely no rush on working on the article in whichever way you intend. Regards... Miloluvr (talk) 22:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem, and no need to apologize at all. Everything you said was spot-on and on target, and it's good to bring up such observations! :) This isn't an article I've authored or one I look after on a regular basis, because I'm not a fan of Khorkina myself, and I'd rather spend the time working on articles about gymnasts I prefer--I just have it on my watchlist because she's high-profile and I try to keep some of the more outrageous claims (such as the anorexia, above) from being placed in the article. Thanks for being here on Wiki--we always need editors who have interest in gymnastics articles here! Please keep contributing and adding your observations about things that can be improved on the Talk Pages, and if there's anything I can do to help you, please let me know. Best, DanielEng (talk) 23:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)