Talk:Protests against Nicolás Maduro

Lacking in neutrality

It has come to my attention that this page has some serious WP:POV issues. To name a few: 1. The article includes countless pictures of anti-government marches, including a gallery, but seemingly no identifiable pictures of the numerous pro-government marches that have been taking place. And in fact, there is minimal mention of there being any pro-government marches in the article. 2. There is little to no mention of attacks on the buildings of state-run businesses, such as CANTV and VTV. 3. A few National Guardsmen have been killed during the protest, and yet it seems their deaths are not mentioned in the article. 4. Presidents Maduro's frequent offers of dialogue to the opposition and to the United Sates government and his calls for peace are also given very little attention. There is a quick mention of his call for dialogue at the bottom of the page, but, not surprisingly, presented in a negative light. 5. Local pro-opposition sources (like la Patilla and NTN24) are widely cited while more neutral articles by international and accredited news agencies (like Reuters) are being ignored.

I expanded the timeline of events from the chronology of the protests in Spanish, it has a lot of useful information. I hope the WP:NPOV is more even now and there's more information about the pro-government protests and the National Guardsmen deaths. Most of the sources should be verified and expanded though. Anyways, I have received a lot of pictures through my cellphone and some of them are of the government supporters marches, but I haven't uploaded them since they're not original work. If I happen to solve the copyright issue or produce original work I'd be glad to help improve that aspect. --Jamez42 (talk) 03:10, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

And to add to that, I would like to know why bobrayner finds the following passage in the section "Government" neutral : "Militant groups known as "colectivos", who are accused of attacking opposition TV staff, sending death threats to journalists, and tear-gassing the Vatican envoy after Hugo Chavez accused him of intervening with his government, helped assist the government.[210] These "colectivos" are able to act violently against the opposition, usually without impediment from Venezuelan government forces.[132]" But to add that a "colectivo" was shot death, and that this lead to the governments arrest of Leopoldo Lopez as reported in the Reuters article which was already cited [1] is apparently making this article less neutral and has to be reverted. To my knowledge Reuters is a reliable news source, please do correct me if I'm wrong. And lastly, I do not see how the subsequent passage regarding the "National Boliviarian Militia", in which Maduro's democratically elected government is designated as "a regime", is neutral. And to help clarify my point, this passage taken from the article regime: "While the word regime originates as a synonym for any form of government, modern usage often gives the term a negative connotation, implying an authoritarian government or dictatorship." I see that the issue of WP:POV has been brought up before, but so far it seems little has been done. Thank you for your time. Coughdrops (talk) 16:43, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I added a lot of the photos of the protesters and the most I could find are of the opposition. The only one I found of a pro-government was taken down due to copyright concerns. I tried including that into the article too, but there is just much more of opposition protesters. If you could find photos of pro-government demonstrations that would be awesome. With the death of the colectivo member, I will help you incorporate that into the article but the government section may not be the best place for it. --Zfigueroa (talk) 23:52, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

You can stone me to death, but venezuelanalysis.com have few photos of progovernment marches in Venezuela and they can be free use in non-comercial cases. Now, stone me ;)--62.245.80.50 (talk) 23:40, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

María Corina and the OAS

It seems there is few, if any, information in the article regarding María Corina Machado’s assistance in the OAS meeting that took place the March 21th, the decision to turn the meeting private and its reactions. This could either be arranged in the international reactions section, in the timeline of events or in a new section. --Jamez42 (talk) 02:12, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Opposition section addition

Somebody added a lot to the opposition section. I had a recent edit taking it off since no sources were added to such a large section. If someone can resubmit it with sources that would be greatly appreciated. --Zfigueroa (talk) 06:03, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

International Counseling Service (ICS) and government sources

This is the closest thing I could find to the International Counseling Service (ICS) which is a "A Professional Psychological and Mental Health Service for the English speaking community in and around Paris." Also, most of these sources come from government funded or actual government sources including TeleSUR, City of Caracas and the Venezuelan News Agency. I understand that some other news sources are included, but they cite the government sources. They simply do not seem credible since no organization exists and they are biased toward the government/reported by the government. --Zfigueroa (talk) 17:12, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

First, it is "International Consulting Services", not "International Counseling Services". It was a typing error on my part; sorry for the confusion. Feel free to look for yourself: "International Consulting Services" does indeed exist; it is a private polling firm. It has been cited in numerous Wikipedia articles. The mere fact that these survey results were reported by government-funded, or government news agencies, in addition to private ones, does not make them biased. Second, it is not true that "most of these sources come from government funded or actual government sources including TeleSUR, City of Caracas and the Venezuelan News Agency." You mention only three citations; however, I provided nine citations. The Noticia Al Dia article does reference the Venezuelan News Agency, but only because it was in an interview with the AVN that Lorenzo Martinez, the head of the polling firm, announced the results. The Globovision and Noticias24.com articles, however, report the results of the ICS surveys directly/independently. Riothero (talk) 20:03, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

BTW, the sources behind those "Datos" polls are at least as questionable. Moreover, this is the first time I have ever heard about this "Datos" group, and I am having an incredibly difficult time finding any information about it. The website given at the bottom of its presentation is offline. Riothero (talk) 20:30, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Ok sorry about that. The Datos links work for me. It's just hard to know what to believe since DolarToday is biased toward the opposition and the government is of course going to be biased towards itself. Just trying to find the most reliable information. Thank you for correcting it! --Zfigueroa (talk) 01:36, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I've removed the government-funded/government sources and replaced them with private ones that cite ICS survey results directly. The Datos website is now working--it must have been down only temporarily. I don't really have any concerns about those sources. However, if more opinion polls become available, we might consider creating its own section. Riothero (talk) 02:03, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

A good approach is to use secondary sources instead of reports from polling companies, which are primary sources. A reliable secondary source establishes the significance, accuracy and interpretation, saving us from re-inventing the wheel. I do not know if ICS is neutral or reliable, but do not think that is something we should determine. TFD (talk) 07:31, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Everything seems to be working good now. I made a new section just like Riothero requested.--Zfigueroa (talk) 19:16, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Barricades -- Las guarimbas / los guarimberos

Since las guarimbas (barricades) have become one of the dominant form of protests in Venezuela, it is a shame that more attention has not been given to them in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Riothero (talk • contribs) 03:34, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I think the methods of protest have been contested by users before on here. It was during the info box discussion where methods of protest can be seen as a vehicle of POV. If something about barricades comes into the news then go ahead and add it into the timeline.--Zfigueroa (talk) 20:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Are you kidding? The barricades are not going to be 'events' on a timeline, they are an everyday thing. If existing articles do not mention them, I would really question their source (in the case of lapatilla.com, I do). Moreover, if collectivos are mentioned in the infobox, then los guarimberos should be as well. I'll look for the prior discussion but by now it has probably already been archived. Riothero (talk) 04:40, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Why can't there be an specific wiki article about the Guarimbas? They are an everyday thing and they are surely an uncommon term for many. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rihp94 (talk • contribs) 23:59, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Pro-government photos

Hi, why is each photo of an opposition protest? Of course there should be a focus on them as this is a protest against the government but there are demonstrations of government supporters too, for example this one from March 2014 (a few days ago) in which government supporters commemorated 20 years since Chavez came out from prison. There are clearly a lot more people here than in any of the opposition demonstrations, is this why? Zozs (talk) 15:15, 1 April 2014 (UTC).

I would add myself but I do not know the coypright details for that particular photo. I think it was produced by the government, does anyone know Venezuela copyright policy for government work? Zozs (talk) 18:00, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I've been trying to find photos supporting the government as well but haven't found any. As far as licensing goes this may help you. There are a few examples of which licenses are allowed. --Zfigueroa (talk) 20:37, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I mean to see the Venezuelan copyright law, to see what kind of license a work produced by the government is under. For example, a work produced by the US government is in the public domain and you can thus use it as you want. Zozs (talk) 23:38, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Try to use photos from venezuelanalysis.com gallery. There are lot of pro-government demonstration photos.--62.245.80.51 (talk) 12:29, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Violent opposition in infobox

We understand that there are some violent opposition individuals/groups, but there are reasons why they should not be involved in the info box.

1. The violent individuals/groups are not part of a party. They are not an organized party such as a colectivo.

2. There is no proof from sources of opposition groups being organized for violence. Opposition leaders have only called for peaceful protests. Meanwhile, sources show that the Venezuelan government has called the colectivos important for protests therefore showing their importance as a pro-government party in the conflict.

3. Just because the government has paramilitary groups that are a party to the conflict doesn't give a valid reason that the opposition have a organized violent party too. It may seem POV but nothing can be purely neutral.

What is said in the majority of sources is that the government has colectivos while a few radical opposition protesters have branched off from peaceful demonstrations and became violent.

--Zfigueroa (talk) 00:10, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

1. Of course they are a group, just as the "protesters" or "university students" are, which are a mass and decentralized group. 2. There is so much documentation of violence in the 2014 protests from opposition-aligned grooups and individuals. 3. The government has no "paramilitary groups" and the government makes a statement against violence every day. It is POV and it can be neutral.

The colectivos are not even mentioned in the Spanish article's infobox so they cannot be too important to even warrant being there as a "party to the protests". "Paramilitary forces"? Please. They are as much of "paramilitary forces" as the opposition groups are or even less of, considering the extremity of opposition violence in comparison to pro-government "violence" which already got proved in several sources. Calling them "paramilitary forces" is an attempt to take them out of scale in comparison with the opposition violence. Obviously all the lead figures in both the opposition and government are calling against violence and for peace, this changes nothing.

My solution: Mention both. There is nothing wrong with this. There is a lot wrong with mentioning "paramilitary forces" trying to make one side sound like baddies who are trying to turn a protest into a military conflict against "innocent people with no weapons". The pro-government violent groups can even be called "paramilitary groups" if that is wanted, but the anti-government violent groups must be mentioned if the pro-government ones are.

If the opposition is documented to have, for instance, bombing equipment according to sources then why is this terrorism (at least attempts of) not mentioned at all anywhere while sentences are written in a progressively sneakier way to make it look like the government is somehow to blame for the deaths?

I've read somewhere that you and/or your family are personally involved in this issue, but please try to put you in someone else's shoes. Zozs (talk) 00:30, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Opposition groups don't need to be mentioned if there are paramilitary groups for the government. If there is documentation of an organized group please provide it but until then there is not an organized party. There are organized student movements and organized civilian movements however there is no evidence of organized violent opposition groups.

And yes, if you want to make this personal there is family involved but that doesn't change the story. It bothers me that you've been reading though my discussions. I have no biased opinions only facts. Please provide a few facts yourself.--Zfigueroa (talk) 00:55, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

There are no "paramilitary groups of the government", although there are pro-government violent groups. There may be organized protester and university students group but that doesn't nullify the fact that mass and decentralized groups are being mentioned in the infobox - and there is no clear group holding sovereignty over such labels as "protesters" or "university students" which are mentioned there, which proves the decentralized and mass nature - which is exactly the same which applies to the opposition violent groups.

Of course there are organized violent opposition groups, but like terrorist groups often are their structure and etc. is kept secret.

I apologize if what I said is intrusive. I only mean to say that you should try to control any bias, as it seems you are personally/emotionally involved in this. I haven't been reading through your discussions. I was browsing Communist-USSR's user page and coincidentally noticed you mentioning that you are personally involved in the Venezuelan issue in his talk page. (In case there is any doubt, I wasn't stalking him either, I was there to give him a barnstar...)

Just because the violent groups have not released any name and are not associated as a "certain group" (even though many details about them and their violence are known and documented) does not mean that they do not exist. Try to think of it this way: would a chavista have a problem with the whole of this article if he saw it? I think so, and it wouldn't be down to small details. Zozs (talk) 01:07, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I understand. The only thing that I was personal about were the reversions being made on me. I know you might feel the same too. I found out I was wrong and I learned my lesson. I'm not saying you're wrong but if you just assume that there are terrorist opposition organizations, then I could put what the opposition assume that the Castro brothers are running the show (which I doubt since there is a lack of evidence). Theres the Student Movements which involve UCV and other universities and there are civilian movements like the one that occurred in Isabelica. Since the terrorist opposition organizations are secret and not known of, we can't really put them as a party in the conflict because there's no evidence and nothing known about them. The best thing you can do is provide evidence of these things through reliable sources. Just try to avoid government sources or state-run news agencies since they may be biased. If you just look in Google News and use their search tools you can find a lot from sources but not all of them are reliable. If you need any help let me know on my talk page. We really do need more about the government and I'd be glad if you could help.--Zfigueroa (talk) 01:26, 2 April 2014 (UTC)