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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 212.76.33.66 (talk) at 18:42, 27 June 2006. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Abkhazia

You do understand my English, don't you? Talk page and clear points to discuss. Not vague ones, not capitalized or bold text. Clear one! Please, remove tag so far. --tasc 15:05, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Warning

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert an article to a previous version more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you. --Khoikhoi 02:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Images

You cannot upload images in wikipedia without permission of photo owners. You cannot assign image tags arbitrarily. Please read Wikipedia:Copyrights carefully. This is a very serious issue. The photos you uploaded without author's permission are deleted. mikka (t) 21:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Welcome

Thank you for your contributions. Please learn how wikipedia works and read how other articles about separatist states are written. In your case it is particularly important for you to read and understand the wikipedia's neutrality policy.

We appreciate new contributors, especially from areas not well represented in the internet. However please understand that wikipedia's style is different from newspapers, where people freely use strong words and political cliches. Our goal is to provide correct information without excessive emotions. Facts must speak for themselves.

Here are a few good links for newcomers:

mikka (t) 22:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Dear Mr mikka, Thanks for your welcoming. Actually those images belong to IAG (International Action Group) Abkhazeti, which gave me authority to use them freely only for web sites. Please let me know if you need official conformation from them.

As for neutrality, we must not forget the facts and truthfulness of these conflicts. I promise to be fair, nutral and always use valid and reliable sources when editing or contributin anything to Wiki.

Thanks for your warm welcome and withing you all the best

Possible forms of permission

Unfortunately "only for websites" permission is not good for use in wikipedia. Wikipedia may be released on DVD or as a printed book as well, for sale. Basically, according to the policy wikipedia:Copyrights, the permission for relatively new imafes images may be one of the following types:

This basically means that you are free to copy, distribute, display, and perform the work; to make derivative works; and to make commercial use of the work; always by attribution which means that you must attribute the work to <a website or an author>" mikka (t) 23:03, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
mikka please return the deleted photos, and i will make attributions to author, website and source of the photos.

Dear Administrator

I was unfairly blocked by Mikka for re-editing anti Georgian POV on Abkhazia article. I disputed the article for luck of sources, POV, biased and provocative claims made by possible pro Russian contributors of Wiki. They have ignored my suggestions based on valid sources (historical materials from the academia, exp David Lang, Andersen and WED Allens work).

Also photos which i used in my contribution page were unfairly removed. I have every right of publishing those photos on the net. The owner of those photo materials "International Action Group Abkhazeti" can forward a written conformation regarding the photo use.

I also would like to bring into your attention the issue with Abkhazia article as it is completely false, biased, full of POVs and un-sourced materials. The person who is editing that article (Koikhoi) does not know the difference between situation in Abkhazia and Baltic States. The reader is intentionally misled. Please help! Im ready to provide valid and reliable sources and materials for the topic.

Thank you in advance

LDNoxch Borz 03:42, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

{{unblock}}

Don't alter my statements please. I compared the sovereignty of Abkhazia to that of the Baltic States after WWII, and you went off on a tangent about churches, historical monuments, ethnic cleansing, and other irrelevant facts. By the way, I have never added anything significant to the article, I am simply reverting your changes which are in a violation of one of our main policies here at Wikipedia. If you're going to provide "reliave sources" then they have to be neutral. --Khoikhoi 03:52, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And you were blocked for violating the three-revert rule, not adding Georgian POV to a neutral article. --Khoikhoi 03:52, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There is no point in arguing with you. You are simply anti Georgian biased individual, who even lacks basic knowledge of the topic. If you conceder historical monuments, churches and ethnic cleansing as irrelevant then i don’t find any reason to even talk to you. Its very sad how un-educated people like you can influence some topics on the net.Noxchi Borz 22:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If you make a personal attack against me one more time I'm going to report you. --Khoikhoi 01:24, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Go Ahead, report me!Noxchi Borz 20:46, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Abkhazia article

Hello Noxchi Borz, and thanks for taking an interest in the history of Georgia, which is, in a matter of fact, inseparable from that of Abkhazia, and to claim otherwise means to push a POV. The article, in my opinion, should focus on the fact that the region is home to both Abkhaz and Georgian peoples, both have their arguments and both suffered heavily from the conflict, not to say about the ethnic cleansing of the Georgians.

The current version of the article does lack neutrality. It doesn’t clearly explain the de jure (internationally recognized) status of Abkhazia and the Abkhazia location map within Georgia was removed without reasoning. I think a box containing the basic info about Abkhazia, as an autonomous republic within Georgia, should also be added.

I’ll probably start from the early history of Abkhazia… It’ll take some time, however. When contributing to the article about such a controversial and delicate issue, you have to have your edits backed up by millions of references, so you know…

Best wishes, Kober 20:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mr Kober, The problem which i have with the author and moderators of that article is following (this observation was done by numerous visitors): Mr Khoikhoi has typical anti Georgian POV, no previous knowledge of history, conflict and issue of Abkhazia. He compared the problem with Soviet occupation of Baltic states, rejected the scholarly work (which is highly praised by many western universities) of Lang, Andersen and Allen because their book title has the word :"Georgian." In his idea Abkhazian or Abkhazia has no place in Georgian history. Im sure he never read works by Abkhazian writer and public benefactor Gulua (he reminds me more of Iskander and so called historian Hewitt-anti Georgian demagogues).

People of such educational level control and manipulate the subject of Abkhazia on Wikipedia. Our professor at York has already banned students from using Wikipedia as a source or reliable data. Mr. mikka (a belorussian or russian) has logically pro Russian POV (i have not seen his neutrality in the issue). Tasc is another Russian with typical anti Georgian hysterics and POV. I have studied for a while now the issue of Abkhazia by researching various sources, historic materials and 200 pages of Helsinki Human Rights report on Abkhazia.

The history section is a complete falsification. Levon and Feodosius (kings of Abkhazeti-Egrisi) were of Georgian origins and not of Apsua or Abasgian. For two millennium Abkhazian history exist within Georgian (Roger Rosen, 2005). Im not going into more details.

Please open the article on Karabakh and compare it with Abkhazia. "Nagorno-Karabakh is a region of Azerbaijan that has declared itself independent as the Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh" How is Abkhazia different from Karabakh? Abkhazia by all laws and officially is part of Georgia.

Also Mr Bagaph is not a President (the capital letter "P" indicates official status) as he was not officially recognized by international community as such, he is president (self-claimed). The term "de facto government" is wrong, the proper name is separatist government. Pro Georgian government is exile is very wrong. By official name its "Legitimate Government of Abkhazian Autonomous Republic in Exile" UN resolutions 95, 98, 2001, etc and Helsinki Convention on Abkhazia 1998. This government was democratically and officially recognized, headed by Zhiuli Shartava, Raul Eshba (an Abkhaz BTW), Tamaz Nadareishvili (whose ancestors live din Abkhazia since days of Prince Shervashidze) and later Guram Gabiskiria (killed and mutilated on September 27, 1995 along with Shartava, Eshba, and many others). Mr Saakashvili has removed Mr Alasania from heading this government and made him an envoy of president of Georgia to Abkhazia (a very serious and big mistake by Saakashvili in my opinion).

Unfortunately, you are Georgian and your editing will always be viewed as pro Georgian POV. That article is controlled by anti Georgian demagogues with pro Russian administrators like "belorussian" mikka. Luis Dingley, YU Noxchi Borz 19:16, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cut it out Noxchi, will ya? For the last time stop saying I have "anti-Georgian POV". I have nothing against Georgians - STOP. --Khoikhoi 00:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
it is my right to claim that based on your comments and ill-treatment of the subject. I have many arguments copied from you which can back up this claim and therefore discredit you completely in relation with conflict situation in Abkhazia due to biased POV. Im trying to bring up truthfulness and alert people in case of biased, un-sources and falsified materials which mislead the publish and derives them from the established methods of sourcing, research, scholarly work, etc. In Universities and academia’s around the world have those methods are fully applied for any historic or political topic. They definitely place a great importance on that and maintain zero tolerance on re-editing or changing the historic facts based on personal views or opinions. Thanks L.Dingley. Noxchi Borz 14:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I said that Abkhazia is a de facto independent country, and then you started to call me "anti-Georgian", again and again. Please review Wikipedia's policy on personal attacks. --Khoikhoi 18:13, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a personal attack and I have every right to criticize your comments which has nothing to do with your personality. Abkhazia IS NOT a country (please review and research all resolutions by OSCE, UN, EU Council, etc) and even can not be considered as “de facto country” due to deportation and expulsion of more than 300,000 of the regions citizens (one of the policies of ethnic-cleansing). It is a separatist enclave within jurisdiction of Georgian constitution, which is fully recognized and supported by international organizations/community (which governs the international law). Please understand that your opinions are very much pro separatist e.i anti Georgian POV. Dont threaten me with bans (you were banned by Wiki before). You fail to bring up arguments which are supported by SOURCES. So far you have only expressed your opinion based on your point of view which I find pro-separatist and anti Georgian. And THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK! If you do find it so, stop massaging me and I will cease to communicate with you. I don’t find any reason to continue our conversation due to your threats and endless claims with no reliable sources. Please read the policies of academic research in the field of History and Politics.Noxchi Borz 20:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC) 20:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Personal attakcs

Regarding edits such as this one: do not make personal attacks twords other users, as they are counter to wikipedia policy and you may be temporarily blocked if you persist in showing such disrespect against other editors. Wikipedia has very strict policies of no personal attacks whatsoever and assume good faith in other users despite the circumstances, and they are taken very seriously. If you have a problem with the content of another user's contributions, discuss them in a civil tone. Refrain from commenting about the users who make them, or their possible 'biases'. --InShaneee 18:19, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

threats, threats. Sure, no problem, I will seas to communicate with that user. I made my point and further discussions is waste of time. Thanks for warning. Noxchi Borz 18:53, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No problem

Hi Noxchi, I'm apologize for my sarcasm at Talk:Abkhazia - I hope we can work things out. BTW, at Sir Oliver Wardrop, the correct way to link to the country is by doing this: [[Georgia (country)|Georgia]], not [[Georgia]]. Take care, Khoikhoi 03:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No apologies please, my fault. Thank you very much for your help, i will always ask for your advice for starting any new article. I will definitely work with you and ask for advices (specially when you are Wiki veteran) if you would have time. Please add any corrections, edits or remarks if mistakes are made. Thanks again! All the best Khoikhoi. LD Noxchi Borz 03:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your kindness. :) I'll go through some of the articles you created right now and see if there's anything that needs to be fixed. Cheers, Khoikhoi 03:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A picture for you

File:Tbilisi-1910.jpg
View of Tbilisi from the Grounds of Saint David Church, ca. 1907-1915. By Sergei Mikhailovich Prokudin-Gorskii.

I found this while searching the Wiki Commons. All the best, Khoikhoi 04:58, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Khoi! Thanks a lot, that’s a nice photo (first time I see color photo of Tbilisi of 1919). I was there in 93, 95 and in 2003, very beautiful city. After I went to Abkhazia with an American photographer. I have great photos but Wiki is very strict on photo sharing :) Thanks again! Regards. Noxchi Borz 23:40, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Khevsur clansmen, ca. 1910
You're welcome! I also recall reading a very old National Geographic, it showed men in armor, saying "it is rumored that they are descendants of Crusaders". While looking through Wikipedia, I found this article, and there it was, the same picture! You know anything about this? —Khoikhoi 00:05, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Yes. There are many scholars which claim that those on photo (Khevsurs-the Georgian mountaineers) are decedents of French/English/Scottish crusaders which came to Georgia to give aid to King David the Builder. One of these scholars was a Scottish fellow who traveled there and found many similarities between Georgian mountaineers and Scottish (especially their weapons, costumes and traditions). There is a name in Georgia which is believed to be originated from French Crusades. Prangishvili (prangi means French and shvili is typical Georgian ending, meaning son of). Khevsurs have amazing costumes covered with crosses (Jerusalem or Maltese Cross, the ones which were used in the crusade). King David later used them for his own Crusade to liberate Georgian lands from Selchuks and Persians. They still live in the middle ages :) They have same code of honor as in middle ages. They speak 10 century Georgian and still wear their costumes. Today, their community is shrinking due to hardship. Their villages are almost impossible to reach. You need helicopter to get there. One of their famous cities was Shatili, never has been changed since Middle Ages. But those claims are only theories. King David intentionally dressed his army more resembling Crusaders. There were about 100 Crusaders in Georgia and many of them stayed there. Noxchi Borz 00:23, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Very interesting, thank you. I wasn't aware that they still dressed like that today! Cheers, —Khoikhoi 00:48, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


File:0000233523-013.jpg
Khevsurs
Khoi, This photo i uploaded specially for you. Its Khevsurs, wearing their traditional costume. :) Enjoy! Noxchi Borz 13:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much! I'll add it to my user page. :) Cheers, —Khoikhoi 01:14, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Abkhazia

Many thanks for your great work on Abkhazia and for your sympathy towards the victims of ethnic cleansing. Cheers, Kober 20:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Kober, I just wrote facts based on tons of sources and documents. I also have seen many video materials and reviewed reports from UN observers and Helsinki people. I also studied Rwandan Genocide and Chechen crisis. I found many similarities between these horrific events. Thanks for your kind words. All the best Kober! Noxchi Borz 21:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
p.s Kober when you have time please correct the Georgian names on my articles. Im bad with Georgian names :) Thanks a lot Noxchi Borz 21:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bagratid Dynasties

Hi Noxchi,

InShaneee was a good person to contact. No, Eupator is not permitted to make personal attacks. He has not broken the 3RR rule yet (neither have you) but both of you are getting close. Some other admins you might want to contact are El C and FrancisTyers.

When someone is personally attacking you like that, the best thing to do it report it to an admin, and ignore them. Do not insult him as well, as it just adds to the problem. Anyways, I'm pretty busy with a whole lot of other issues, and I'm afraid I can't really get involved. I hope that the admins that I mentioned can help. —Khoikhoi 06:39, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Khoi, Thanks a lot, i will ignore him completely. You are 100% correct. Sorry to bother you. All the best my friend. Regards Luis. Noxchi Borz 13:22, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry, I'm not bothered at all. Take care. —Khoikhoi 16:28, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Khoi you are the best :) You fixed my User page :) i worked on it for 3 hours and still made a mess :) God took away the talent for computers for me :) Thanks my friend, i really appreciate this. :) All the best Khoi! Noxchi Borz 16:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
LOL, it took me two seconds! :p You might want to add {{user typewriter}} to your user page. —Khoikhoi 19:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hallo, Noxchi. Sorry for replying so late... I was on my Easter holidays in Kakheti. I've never heard of a Rachvelian official in Mr Bush's administration:) It's very interesting. Racha is indeed one of the most picturesque areas in Georgia, with its mountains and historical monuments.

Stalin probably made movie about Saakadze to draw parallels between the Persian and German invasions and to turn Georgian patriotism into an instrumental of Soviet military success.

You said you have contacts with the Abkhaz diaspora in th US. Do you mean Mr Kazan et al? It's really interesting what they think about Abkhazia's future. As far as I know, Kazan has visited Tbilisi twice after his break with Ardzinba. Unfortunately, he seems not to enjoy much support in Abkhazia. I'm interested very much in your personal opinion about the region's future. Hopefully there's still a chance for peaceful solution.

We may also create articles about the Kartvelian studies and David Marshall Lang in particular, so as to prevent ones like eupator from confusing him with Tamerlane :). Wish you best of luck in your work on your masters. Cheers, Kober 17:25, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. You can call me Givi. This is actually my given name :). It's of Arabic origin, but I've never heard if it's in use in the Arab world.

Givi, qriste aghzdga, xristos anesti! wishing you all the best and many blessings. Yes Mr Bush had Rachvelian cook in the white house. He made amazing dishes. As for mr Kazan, unfortunately he is not a smart politician or a diplomat. However, he may be a better candidate for peace talks than war criminal Arzimba, a pro russian demagogue Khadjimba or the gang of corrupted criminals from Bagapsh team. Georgians have suffered tremendously, however for the abkhaz this war became the beginning of national downfall. Abkhaz language, traditions and history flourished thanks to unity with Georgia. Gulia (Abkhaz writer) wrote many times about the importance of Abkhaz co-existence with Georgians. You see, 60% of people who claim they are Abkhaz have mingrelian origins. The rest of 40% are Aps'wa (small ethnic group which migrated from Adigey-Circassia) and strictly maintains north Caucasian heritage. This 60% of Abkhaz with mingrelian origins have a strong bond with rest of Georgians (like Aps’wa have with Adigey, Shapsugs, Abazg and Circassians). Because of thugs and criminals like Arzimba, abkhaz nation has lost its historic roots with Georgia and therefore enters a catastrophic decline of national conscience. Russian regime in Caucasus demonstrated the abolition and cultural genocide of Caucasian nations (example: Adigey, Circassians, Daghestanians, Kabardinians, etc). Abkhazia is headed for the same direction thanks to group of people like khajimba, bagapsh, etc. In History we don’t see any violent hatred or conflict between abkhaz and georgians. This conflict was initiated for downgrading Georgian self determination and destroying her unity. Russians are one of the best specialists in Georgian history. They know all the weak and strongs sides of this small nation. They use the old tactics of Byzantine and Persia, which divided Georgia into small peaces and devoured her statehood. How will it end? How many times was Georgia divided into small kingdoms? Was this the first experience with separatism? No. It existed in mountainous parts of Pkhovi and even in Svaneti. Laz people had gone through separatism and ended up in a catastrophic reality. Believe it or not, the only Georgian kingdom which maintained the notion of unity with rest of Georgia was Apkhazeti (Abkhazia). For Georgians the main focus of their unity was concentrated on returning Tao from cloches of Byzantium. However, the fate of Lazika and Tao-Klarjeti are not necessary applicable to Abkhazia. Nobody will recognize this part of Georgia as independent. The Abkhaz total about maximum (and it’s over estimated) 100,000. For them to be a true free nation, they must first get rid of Russians (which is absurd). Even the Russian domination of Caucasus is temporary. The biggest loss fro Georgians was the loss of information war (which was waged on her by the Russians). As you see from wiki, they have accomplished much more. They rewrite, re-edit and manipulate history. People who don’t have any background in history or reality of Abkhazia have an image of a small nation struggling for their freedom like Chechens, Corsicans, Tibet, etc. For them Abkhaz history has nothing to do with Georgian. They don’t know even simple facts that Abkhaz history was written on the pages of Georgian history. How can you write history of Jerusalem without mention of Jews and Palestinians who live there? For Abkhaz to survive, they must find ways to communicate with fellow Georgians. These are two very ancient people who existed with each other for centuries. Gulia wrote: Abkhaz who builds his home and his window is not directed at the house of his Georgian neighbour, has no future. You know history very well. Make an analysis based on historic past. Its not what Russians want (this is very hard fro them to understand) but how reality dictates. I still dont understand why they treat Georgia as enemy. Noxchi Borz 18:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for your congratulation of Easter. I also wish you and your family all the best.
Unfortunately, Georgia's government hasn't yet developed a clear policy concerning how to deal with information warfare. There are a few Internet resources and most of them lack quality and accessibility, particularly for English-speakers. As for ethnic Abkhaz, most of them are thoroughly brainwashed by anti-Georgian propaganda and their position is so intractable that direct dialogue seems impossible, at least until the Russian "peacekeepers" are stationed in Abkhazia. Recently, media reported that Bagapsh is going to ban the Georgian language in the Georgian schools of Gali sector, and the separatists are holding military exercises allegedly involving 5000 men. And the Georgian government is again too late to react. Thanks again for your comments. Kind regards, Kober 20:14, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Givi, you are correct. Georgian government has failed so far in the question of Abkhazia. That is mostly due to dismemberment of Abkhaz government and death of Nadareishvili who has contributed a great deal in infromation war. As for Bagapsh banning Georgian language in Gali. It would be a deadly move, which would provoke wide scale insurrection and partisan warfare of mingrel population. This will also trigger insurrection among 300,000 IDPs who live in miserable conditions. Separatist force of 5,000 will not be enough to stop advancing mingrelian rebels who after taking Gali district will head for Sukhumi. Past 10 years the Georgian authorities and Russia has artificially frozen the move for insurrection among Georgians in Gali. Bagapsh by implementing cultural genocide will trigger this uprising and this will lead to full-scale war with disastrous outcome for abkhaz. Im not mentioning svans which hold Kodori, one of the most strategic places in Abkhazia (militarily, Kodori is the place where the strike on Sukhumi will take place). I don’t think Bagapsh is suicidal by banning Georgian language in mingrelian Gali. If so, he is definitely being told by Moscow in order to provoke full scale war. However, Givi Georgia is facing much greater threat. War in Iran might bring a terrifying outcome for Caucasus. I don’t think Saakashvili is prepared. Abkhazian crisis is temporary. Iran always posed threat and disaster for Christian Georgia. Also dont forget, war in Abkhazia mean war in whole of Caucasus which currently is boiling. Luis. Noxchi Borz 00:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks

Ah, Luis. Thanks for Georgia template. Nice gift! In return, please accept this present. I took it a few weeks ago from Mount Tabori overlooking Old Tbilisi. Regards, Kober 20:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wow thanks a lot. What a beautiful photo. :) Thanks again Givi! Lets start to work on Lang article. Noxchi Borz 20:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

TFD

Removing tfd notices from templates while the dicussion is ongoing is not acceptable. Please don't do it again. ed g2s • talk 00:48, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I didnt do any tfd's (im not sure what that means anyway). Please see page history before posting warnings. Thanks Noxchi Borz 19:16, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Image:0000233523-013.jpg

What do you mean by "Photo belongs to me. Purchased from Eye of Georgia.". Who took the photo originally and how did you acquire the copyright? ed g2s • talk 00:52, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Eye of Georgia is distributor for photo materials. They own many photo materials about Georgia. They sell the photo rights to anyone who is interested. Many photos are auctioned too on their web site. Also they give rights to publish them and use them online freely. After the purchase of the right to the photo, they provide P.O number. However, on some photos, these rights do expire in 5 years. Also you may purchase photos from gettimages.com. The author of the photo of Merab Guderidze and it was made in 1989. The authors are usually selling their rights online through places like Eye of Georgia (this web company is also used in purchase by news agencies). I hope this info was helpful. If future if my finances will allow i will buy more photos online to attach them to the articles. Thanks. Noxchi Borz 15:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chechnya

Hello, I am also happy that are people interested in Chechnya in Wiki. You mentioned Kraków. I am actually from this city. You are from Canada. I know there are Chechen people in Canada. I wonder if you know them. If you want to know more about Poland and Cracow you can e-mail me as well. Regards, Jasra 20:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Jasra. Thanks a lot for your massage. Im not Chechen. Im Canadian (with mix background: English, Irish and French Canadian). I dont know any Chechens in Canada. I was in Georgia near Shatili were Chechen refugees live. Their living conditions are appealing and horrific. And also their experiences with the war are extremely tragic. That is why i understand their cause. Russia is intentionally exterminating these people. Also I have been researching Abkhazia crisis and spoke with many refugees from there. Wiki is a strange place, it has many positive sides but also very negative. It’s full of Russian nationalists who have very aggressive policy. Russian ultra-nationalism (you probably know the recent rise of fascism in Russia) is a very dangerous. Your country has seen many sides of it and has suffered tremendously. Krakow is very beautiful and I truly admire polish people. I will definitely email you. Thanks again for your massage and hope to hear from you soon. All the best. Noxchi Borz 20:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Warsaw Uprising

Gosh, it's been ages since I read some monograph on Warsaw Uprising, but I'll try to respond the best I can. As far as I remember there were no large specifically Ukrainian units fighting in Warsaw against the Poles at the time of the uprising. However, there were indeed Ukrainian units fighting against the uprising. The matter is pretty well-described in the article on 14th SS division, be sure to check it. A similar phenomenon, though this one did indeed start during the uprising and not after the war (as is the case of SS Galizien in Warsaw myth) happened to Andrei Vlasov's men. In Warsaw pretty everyone believed that all Russians fighting against the Uprising were Vlasov's men - which was not true. Nevertheless, in countless accounts the hiwi units are called własowcy, or Vlasovites. I guess the situation was similar to the western front, where all German tanks were called Panthers, even if they were not. Anyway, there were Ukrainians fighting against the Uprising, but not the Vlasov's men, as the myth had it - and not the 14th SS division. The fame of Vlasov, who was perhaps the best publicized of Russian generals fighting alongside the Germans, made all former Soviet citizens fighting alongside the Germans "Vlasovites", regardless of their true unit. However, as I mentioned, it was not until Vlasov's post-war trial that the Commie-controlled newspapers called him the butcher of Warsaw, thus adding greatly to myth's popularity.

Indeed the two largest hiwi units you mentioned were Dirlewanger's Bde and the 111th Infantry Regiment, composed primarily of Azeri soldiers. Interestingly, there were also at least two Azeri officers, former pre-war officers of the Polish Army, who took part in the fights on the Polish side. Anyway, the combat history of Dirlewanger's brigade is pretty well described in the wiki articles on him and the uprising. First it slaughtered up to 50,000 civilians in the Wola massacre, then moved to the Old Town (another 5,000 sick and wounded murdered after the Polish forces withdrew from the area, the remaining 35,000 being sent to concentration camps) and then to Czerniaków and Powiśle - along the Vistula. It's worth noting that, outside of the so-called criminal battalion (composed mostly of German criminals allowed to join the unit in exchange for being freed from the prisons and camps), the unit also included the so-called Russian Battalion (hiwis) and Eastern-Muslim SS Regiment, composed mostly of Azeri and Turkmen.

The third largest unit was the RONA brigade (or rather it's assault regiment) took part in the fights in Ochota and then in the city centre. They fought against the uprising for only 10 days (August 4-14th), but they managed to organize at least 500 mass murders - and ran their own, semi-private concentration camp in one of the marketplaces (Zieleniak). Then, after suffering some 30% in casualties, the regiment was moved out of Warsaw and was used to prevent the Home Army from breaking into the besieged city from the forests outside Warsaw.

There were also a number of smaller non-German units. Parts of the 13th SS Sonderbattalion (Belarusian) defended the German-only district of Warsaw. The 34th Police Rifle Regiment (under Franz Wichmann) was composed of three battalions, two of them being composed of both German and Ukrainian, while the other was purely German. Another "Ukrainian" unit was the 209th Cossack Schutzmannschaft Battalion, composed not only from Ukrainian Cossacks, but also from those from Russia. However, due to Polish complicated history, hardly anyone here knows that there are non-Ukrainian Cossacks and so the unit was also referred as Ukrainian. Probably the best-known Ukrainian unit to fight on the German side was the so-called Volhynian Legion, or Ukrainian Self-Defence Legion, which numbered some several hundred men altogether (between 300 and 700 men under Petro Diachenko, a pre-war officer of the Polish Army) and was in fact attached to the 13th SS Galizien in 1945. The unit fought in Czerniaków in mid-September and then in Kampinos until the very end.

Outside of Warsaw, in the outer line of defences against the Home Army, there were additional foreign units. Among them were the 3rd Cossack Regiment under Bondarenko (mostly Ukrainian), the IV/57 cavalry battalion (also Cossacks) and the 69th independent cavalry battalion (Cossacks). The three fought in the area of Kampinos Forest and Żoliborz. Other units to serve in German service in the area were the 572ns Infantry Battalion (Ukrainian; under Col. Zinovev) and the Russian 580th cavalry battalion (Russian unit under German officer, Ernst Kalamorz). The latter was later dispatched to the city centre, where it took part in the fights. Finally, there was also a separate I/111 Azeri Battalion (under Capt. Scharrenberg) and the II "Bergmann" Battalion composed of all nations of the Caucasus (under Mertelsmann).

Phew, I guess it's a pretty comprehensive list of all non-German units. There were also Hungarians stationed to the west of Warsaw, but their loyalty to their ally was limited, to put it mildly, and many of them defected to the Polish side while others commonly sold their arms to the Polish Home Army. And of course they were not hiwis. I hope you don't mind my reply is so unorganised, but I simply have to go now.

Oh, and thanks for your kind words, it's always nice there are people who actually value my work :) //Halibutt 17:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Pan Halibutt, Thanks so much for such an insightful and very informative information. I didn’t really expect to find out so many things in one day. Thanks to you now I have full information on Foreign Volunteers in Warsaw Uprising. I was well aware of RONA participation in uprising and also was convinced in the falsehood regarding Vlasov. However, Vlasov made numerous mistakes when he implemented Russian nationalistic policies in KONR regarding the self determination of many nations under Russian control. Although he later corrected that mistake. There was a big opposition from Ukrainian side about the involvement of 14 SS in the uprising. They still have firm believe that those were false allegations and polish provocations to present them as villains. I still don’t understand the main root causes of polish Ukrainian conflict. These are two very close nations. I think they have much greater enemy in the east. Its very sad to read about Azeri participation in the uprising. Azeris joined Wermacht due to many reasons but mainly for national liberation (others like Armenians Georgians, Baltic people, Ukrainians, Turkistani has same reasons). Is it true that dmitry Shalikashvili (former officer in Polish army of Georgian decent) was member of Georgian SS (under BregadenFuhrer Tsulukidze) and he took part in the uprising? I think those were only allegations. He was one of the Georgian émigrés (of aristocratic background) who loved and admired Poland. Please visit: http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/Poland/georpol.htm
And please let me know what you think about it. I’m very happy to have found you because it’s very hard to meet a person which such a vast knowledge in military history. I have tons of questions but I don’t think you have enough time to answer them. They start from Ulans of Napoleon (in Spain and Waterloo) till the massacre of Polish officers by Soviets.  Thanks again for dedicating your time and giving me so much info. Im planning to start article on Georgians in Polish army and if you have some info or want to help out I would be grateful.  All the best Pan halibut. Best wishes. Noxchi Borz 18:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Don't mention it, I'm always glad to help. In fact I had to refresh my memory with an article from Rzeczpospolita daily which listed all the units as I forgot the names of most of them. Seems like I'm getting old... :D
Anyway, as to Georgians, the matter is more complicated that it might seem. After the Bolshevik annexation of Georgia in the earlu 1920's dozens of thousands of people migrated mostly to Europe. As Piłsudski was generally friendly towards all countries that were formerly under Imperial Russian rule, he invited a number of Georgians to receive military training in Polish academies. Altogether, some 2,000 Georgians were promoted to NCOs and officers, and then served in the Polish Army as contract officers. The contract was a way to pass by some treaties with the LoN which made the service of foreigners in Polish armed forces much harder. So, in other words, they were somewhere in between officers, volunteers and mercenaries. Should history go some other way these people would be trained well enough to form a core of a future Georgian army - much like officers of other eastern nationalities also serving in Poland. However, in 1930s it became clear that changes in the east and the fall of Communism was highly unlikely, and some of the Georgians asked for Polish citizenship, which they were granted. Others remained stateless or of Georgian citizenship, generally not recognized by anyone.
Most of the Georgians took part in the war of 1939 on the Polish side, often in ranks as high as Colonel and several of them commanded their own regiments composed of Polish soldiers. Perhaps the highest ranking of their group were the six generals: generał dywizji Zachariasz Bakradze (deputy commander of Polish 15th Infantry Division) and people with the rank of generał brygady: Aleksander Czcheidze (deputy commander of Polish 16th Infantry Division; murdered by the NKVD in 1941), Iwan Kazbek, Aleksander Koniaszwili, Kiril Kutateładze and Aleksander Zachariadze. The other notable guy was Wiktor Łomidze, the unfortunate commander of the ORP Gryf. Another naval officer was Jerzy Tumanszwili, the guy ended his career as a Captain - and with a Virtuti Militari on his chest, a thing uncommon in the Polish Navy. Quite a notable commander was Lt.Col. Walerian Tewzadze, the commander of the northern sector of the Polish defences during the siege of Warsaw. Major Michał Kwaliaszwili was a commander of a cavalry battalion within the 15th Uhlans Regiment. And so on, there were Georgians in pretty every major unit, also in the air forces (including the most prestigious Aviation School of Dęblin, where there were at least two Georgian instructors. You might want to check this forum for some more info.
Nb: all the names are rendered in Polish as that's how they were written here. It's most probable that their original Georgian names were put down differently. //Halibutt 02:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Pan Halibutt, You can not imagine how helpful this information was. I can’t express enough gratitude. This info actually will help me to do more research on those Georgians. As I know Polish government in 1920 also supported liberation movements within republics of Caucasus. From many émigrés in Poland they organized an organization called “Prometey” which was financed by Polish government in establishing military units composed of Caucasian nationals. They even had training camps all across Poland. Polish government also conducted serious research on cultures and history of Caucasian nations and collected great amount of information (later used by Germans Abwehr to form eastern volunteer units). There were some operations conducted in Georgia in 1930s. Via Turkey Georgian insurgents attacked Soviets but most of these operations failed. Many people in Tbilisi who have been involved were executed. Shakilashvilis biography is very interesting and controversial. He was one of the Georgian aristocrats who fled the Bolshevik invasion. He joined Polish army. In his work he expressed gratitude and love for Poland. When Germans invaded he was contacted by Georgian émigrés from Berlin (they had organized Georgian Committee White George). Members of that committee were his former friends and fellow aristocrats (count Amilakshvari, Prince Dadiani and Chavchavadze). They pleaded with him to join the Georgian Legion (under the command of a brilliant general Shalva Maglakelidze). He was convinced by Abwehr agents and by German propaganda for liberation of Georgia. He joined his friend who became BregadenFuhrer Michael Tsulukidze (former officer of Georgian Democratic Republic) in newly formed Georgian SS unit. Both of them had good relations with Admiral Canaris. During the uprising in Warsaw, Salikashvili refused to join German units in Poland and surrendered to the western allies in France. However, there was a version by Soviet propagandists who claimed that Shalikashvili took part I the uprising. By this claim they made him a villain. Before he died in US, John Shalikashvili (son and later a big man in US army) witnessed his last moments. He asked John to never forget Georgia and go back there someday. Its very interesting relationship Polish had with Georgians before and after WWII. Unfortunately many poles don’t know even a simple thing about Georgia (a country which admired them). With Kober I will try to make an article about it in Wiki. What do you think? Thanks a lot again Hali, I really appreciate your help. All the best. LD. Noxchi Borz 20:54, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WED Allen

Hi Luis, I wrote an article on WED Allen. Could you please revise it? Your comments will be welcomed. Thanks a lot, Kober 20:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. This is a 1925 photo showing the Georgian and Polish officers in Poland. I’ve found it on the website of the Georgian Community of Poland.

Dear Givi, your page is excellent about WED Allen. Good job :) Thank you very much for the photo, it is almost impossible to find any photo of Georgians in Polish army. Regards. LD Noxchi Borz 20:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chechen War

Hey Noxchi,

You can email me here, and then I'll reply. I'd rather not mention my email on Wikipedia, as to avoid spam and stuff like that. I'm looking forward to the pictures, however! :D BTW, have you seen this gallery from the Wikimedia Commons? —Khoikhoi 01:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I emailed you Khoi Noxchi Borz 15:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

License tagging for Image:Geolegion1.jpg

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Georgians in Poland

Hi Luis, how are you? As I promised, I translated and put together some materials found across Georgian websites. Please check "Georgian emigration in Poland" and fix the mistakes. Given your brilliant knowledge of the issue, I hope you will make the article much better than it is now :). Cheers, Kober 22:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Kober, you did a wonderful job on the Georgian emigration in Poland article. I'll add more info later on. I'm trying to monitor Abkhazia article. There are too many POVs and biased claims on that article. Those Russian veterans of Wiki are working very well. I noticed that they manipulate the information on many articles (Polish, Ukrainian, Caucasian, etc). You see its all due to anti-Georgian hysteria which Mr Putin has initiated in their country. For them the name "Gruzin" is a label of an enemy. A country which is swept with poverty and misery needs enemies to take away focus from the realities of the crisis. Germans have used similar tactics in their own crisis period. For every fault they blamed Jews. If you read Russian press, its always very negative and provocative towards Georgia. Its massive tendency of Russians to downgrade and wage war on Georgian through any means (including information war). Unfortunately as I noticed Georgians are not ready for this information war and so far they didn’t make any progress. Thanks for your kind words, unfortunately I’m very far from know many things about Georgia. It’s a region which is full of mystery. All the best. Noxchi Borz 14:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot for your comments and Shalikashvili photo. Dear Luis, your kind words do encourage me to continue my contibutions to wiki:). If you could read Russian forums, you'd be astonished what kind of comments are made on Georgia and Georgians. They use all sort of profanities. You can find much criticism about Russia on Georgian websites, but they never use such expletives. Russians accuse us of Russophobia, but their reaction to Georgia's pro-Western moves is nothing but hysteria. See, for example, 2006 Russian ban of Moldovan and Georgian wines. Unfortunately, Georgia lost the information war with Russia, but I observe that English-language news sites increasingly use Georgian sources, particularly civil.ge. Saakashvili's government is considering the withdrawal from the Commonwealth of Independent States, which is actually a failed attempt to revitalize the USSR. The membership of the CIS has been considered in Georgia as a national disgrace. I'll work more on the Confederation article. Best wishes, Kober 16:30, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the link, I'll take a look at it. Oh, and I noticed you joined our small Polish military club :) Welcome! As you can see there's still plenty of articles to create. I'll give Wiktor Łomidze a try as he's been on my to-do list for quite some time now. //Halibutt 15:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chechen Symbol

Not quite sure. It was something about licence, I think. Now there is an action in commons to remove all the graphics which have not clearly difined copyrights. So I believe this time it had nothing to do with political reasons (I hope at least). For now I have provisionally repaired the template by putting another flag. However feel free to put a symbol with an emblem if you find one. Regards, Jasra 21:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks

Hey Luis, thanks a lot for the barnstar and for your help with Georgia-related topics. I really appreciate it. I'd like to present you this picture by the Polish artist Ilya Zankovski showing Mt Ushba in Svaneti. Thanks again and best wishes. Kober 20:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are most welcome my dear friend. Did you get my email? Noxchi Borz 20:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re:Czcheidze

Tnx for the info. If you could provide proper references (info on the book they were reprinted in, preferably) it would save us some grief later. On a sidenote, 'Polska Pani' means 'Polish lady'...which neither me or Halibutt is :) Lady, that is :) If you wanted to say 'Polish misters', then 'Polscy Panowie' is right (but very formal - we are all collegues here, no 'Pan's' here). Still, we appreciate the effort :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No harm done, and we appreciate your intentions. On a sidenote, I find the entire chapter on Polish-Georgian common history quite fascinating. It's really not something you hear about every day...--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, no harm done :) . Using Polish honorary forms is quite complicated even for the Poles themselves and it's quite easy to get lost. In case you wondered, the pan/pani forms are explained here. In short, we use them either before the names/surnames when we mention a third person (like in pan John Doe/ pan Doe/ pan John was kind enough to mention that...) or we replace the name with the form when referring to the person directly (something like I find pan a very decent person instead of Mr. Doe, I find you a very decent person). //Halibutt 18:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why it's POV

This edit reflects yours and the Georgian POV, Noxchi. If it's controversial and disputed, why add your opinion in front of it? If we want to stay neutral, let's try to aviod peppering things with POV adjectives. I'll reply to your message and Talk:Abkhazia later. Nakhvamdis. —Khoikhoi 19:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

see Talk:Abkhazia for answer. Whats "Nakhvamdis"? Noxchi Borz 19:27, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh its farewell in Georgian :) I remember now. Bziala'a (in abkhaz) Noxchi Borz 19:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Although I certainly think that Międzymorze would have been a better solution that Soviet Union, neither can claim that it 'liberated' people who did not want to join that organization. Of course, Międzymorze never became a reality, but the Ukrainians and Belorusians who found themselves in the borders of the Second Polish Republic, while certainly had an easier life then in SU (no holodomor, for example), where at a disadvantage when compared to Poland. And as both of them did try to create their own states (see Polish-Soviet War for more info), the fact that they failed and got, well, partitioned between Poland and SU makes it quite obvious that they were not 'liberated' by any side.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As you write yourself, the fact then one evil is lesser then the other does not make it good. Was the Polish rule a better alternative then the Soviet? I think yes, although there may be some who disagree with me. Was it 'liberation'? No, at least not for anybody who was not an ethnic Pole. On a side note, please don't lump all Russian editors together. Yes, some unfortunately tend to promote some version of 'Greater Russia', but most of them are well-meaning and reasonable folks who deserve our respect.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 18:11, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Portal:Georgia

Hi Luis, thanks again for the photos:) I was suggested to create a wiki portal on Georgia. I've just posted a proposal at Wikipedia:Portal/Proposals though I'm not exactly sure of how it should be created at this point. If you support the idea, please vote at this entry. Thanks, Kober 17:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I'm preparing an article on the 17th-century Georgian-Armenian emigrant to Poland who served as the Polish envoy in Persia.

Thanks a lot for your voting. Cheers, Kober 18:02, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Any time my dear friend. Rachvelians forward! :) Noxchi Borz 18:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Great! I’ll copy your Georgia Unity code to my user page if you don’t mind:). Only, I’d suggest changing Russian code wording simply to “this user opposes racism in Russia and Caucasophobia” to prevent your page from being attacked by… you know them :). Thanks, Kober 05:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. BTW, I’ve uploaded one of Mr Andersen’s maps to Bagrat III and Emirate of Tbilisi. Thanks to you and Mr Andersen, these articles look better now.

Away

I'll be away from Wiki till June 16th. If you have any questions, please email me any time. Thanks a lot. All the best. Noxchi Borz 17:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just thought I'd drop off this image:
File:Imamshamil.jpg
—Khoikhoi 01:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks

Hey Noxchi,

Thanks again for the images. :) Do they have accurate copyright tags on them? Also, if you could add some info about them on the image page, that would be great. Ciao! —Khoikhoi 17:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again for your help. I recall you sent me a similar image of three Chechen men—the man in the middle had the same type of hat. Did you take that one as well? —Khoikhoi 20:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Khoi, no that photo is not mine. My Russian friend took it. This Chechen man was wounded and had a white bandage on his head. After bombardment, he was in a shell shock but managed to stand up and show the sign that he was okay. That man was killed soon after. He was a civilian, simple resident ofGrozny. Noxchi Borz 13:32, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your comments to Macahel

No matter how frustrated you may feel, please don't result to personal attacks—they only make situations worse. —Khoikhoi 00:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I cant stand Turkish or any other chauvinistic/fundamentalist attacks on any subject. I think there should be a rule on Wiki about chauvinist and fundamentalist garbage. Tell me, if someone is a neo-Nazi and comes to wiki to argue BS like denying Holocaust, how can you tolerate that? I saw that on Armenian Genocide articles and now on Ajara. If you tolerate people like that, you will have anarchy on this web site. Wiki has already failed in many aspects and it will continue to fail as realisable source for any info. There is a web site which managed that perfectly and offered a serious reader unbiased materials, Axis History Forum. They have developed set of rules which prevent such garbage to overshadow the learning process which the web site was responsible for. Wiki has no such sense of responsibility or reason. Noxchi Borz 13:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cholokashvili

File:Kco.JPG

Hi Luis. My friend just emailed my this photo showing Cholokashvili and his friend Shalva Nebieridze in France. Unfortunately, it's of very poor quality. I'll try to get a better one. All the best, --Kober 06:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot Kober, thats the one i was looking for. If you can find better quality, let me know. Thanks again! Noxchi Borz 13:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks

Adjara

Eh, Luis. It's too painful to me to see how user:Macahel (a Georgian-speaker from Turkey) behaves here and denies Adjarians to be Georgians. This is how cultural assimilation works... --Kober 21:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kober, they did that to Lazs too. Many of them think that they don't have anything in common with Georgians. You are correct, its too painful for Georgians. But you always get people like that. My girlfriend is French Canadian and she hates Canada (she's separatist) , so.. :) Noxchi Borz 21:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Is she?:) On the other hand, user:SidE's position is completely different. I like him. He is translating your awesome articles on Abkhazia into Turkish. Gaumarjos! --Kober 03:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Luis, we're supposed to have another battlefield, this time on Sochi article. The current version describes this resort as the city near the Russian border with Abkhazia! I reluctantly compromised to mention Abkhazia being a breakaway republic of Georgia, but the Russian User:tasc removes even this phrase. If he doesn't restore it, I'll probably mark the intro section as disputed.--Kober 14:54, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Luis, no more an issue:). We've just got rid of this sentence at all. Ciao,--Kober 15:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

reverting vandalism and trolls

Howdy, when reverting (like here [1]) please check other edits made by the contributor as people often vandalize many articles at the same time. Thnx.

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