Talk:Royal Victorian Order

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Royal Victorian Order in Canada?

On list of post-nominal letters, it says a Commander of the Royal Victorian Order uses the letters RVO... but on here it says they use CVO...? Is there a separate Royal Victorian Order in Canada or something of that sort? ugen64 18:33, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)

CVO is the correct answer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ianfflynn (talk • contribs) 08:56, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

People who are not members

According to http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/celebrity-chef-serves-up-fake-resume/2008/03/04/1204402403985.html the celebrity chef Robert Irvine is not a member of the RVO. He is the presenter of Dinner: Impossible on the Food Network. He recently admitted to lying about being made a Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order and receiving a castle from the Queen. Vk2tds (talk) 23:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Eligibility

the eligibility section only talks about Canadian eligibility. more countries should be added. does one have to be a commonwealth citizen? I ask because in the Tom Clancy novels, Jack Ryan, an American, is made an honorary Knight of this order. and even thourgh it is not recognized in the US, the Brits in the books always call him Sir John. Rds865 (talk) 05:01, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further to the above, can someone pse clarify the position regarding foreign nationals and this order? At [[1]] we read that this French airman held the "Croix de l'Ordre Royal de Victoria". I don't see "Cross" mentioned as such in the en/Wiki article. Is there someone with a list (or who can tell us how to gain access to a list) in order to confirm this point?Mikeo1938 (talk) 16:13, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's perfectly possible for foreigners to be appointed as honorary members of all the grades. example Opera hat (talk) 22:46, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A Canadian probably can't receive an honorary award in the KCVO/DCVO and GCVO grades. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.49.151.119 (talk) 08:20, 16 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sovereign's right to confer honours

It simply isn't true that the Order of the Garter was 'always' in the personal gift of the Sovereign. George V could only confer it upon advice of the PM - it was Elizabeth II who was again allowed to confer it on her own will alone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.153.63.66 (talk) 20:34, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone except Canadians

My understanding is that Australian citizens no longer receive knighthoods either; at least none are bestowed by the Australian government under current policy. Can someone confirm that Australians *are* in fact eligible to receive the highest two honours? Slac speak up! 10:44, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure about the two highest but certainly some Australian were awarded some of the lower grades in the 2011 new year list (eg Royal Victorian Medal (Silver) to Andrew Botto, Household Attendant, Government House, Canberr5a, Australia). The RVO is the gift of the Queen not the governments so in theory she could still give it to anybody. MilborneOne (talk) 11:14, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that that's the theory, but if in practice the Canadian government's "Canadians don't receive knighthoods" policy is explicitly mentioned as preventing them from receiving them under this order, I'd assume the equivalent Australian policy would have exactly the same effect. IIRC the practice of Australians receiving knighthoods ended in the mid 1980's. Slac speak up! 11:35, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Australian Labor governments have never recommended knighthoods. Labor was in power federally between 1983 and 1996. The state governments used to make their own separate recommendations for imperial honours, and the Liberal-National state governments often recommended knighthoods regardless of who was in power federally. I think it was early during Paul Keating's time as Prime Minister (1991-96) that it was officially announced from Buck Palace that the Queen would not be giving any more knighthoods or other UK honours to Australians on the recommendation of any Australian state or federal government, since the Order of Australia was designed to be the sole system for Australian honours.

However, she is unrestricted when it comes to knighthoods and other honours in her personal gift (such as the OM that John Howard recently got). Also, Australians can still be the recipients of knighthoods and other honours recommended by the governments of other Commonwealth Realms (whether because the recipient is a dual citizen or because they have a particular association with that place).

Living Australian knights and dames tells me that there have been at least 7 Australians who've received knighthoods (including a KCVO) since 1990, the last one as recently as 2011. Also, three new dames were created in that time, the last in 2010. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:44, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think all the knighthoods/damehoods received since the last dynastic award to Ninian Stepehen (Order of the Garter) in 1994 have only been to dual citizens of the UK and Australia. In other words it was probably only because they were also UK citizens that they received them. Dynastic Knighthoods/damehoods to Australians have been effectively dormant since 1994, despite the fact that they have been ostensibly an official part of the Australian honours system since then. The Queen probably knew that awarding these knighthoods (for much longer after Imperial awards had ended in 1992) would have inflamed the knighthood debate. Whether Abbott's revival of knighthoods/damehoods in the Order of Australia will also revive the awarding of the Garter or knighthood/damehood grades in the Royal Victorian Order, remains to be seen.

MVO?

Is it correct that MVO redirects here? There is no mention of this acronym in the article. Invertzoo (talk) 00:05, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

MVO is the post-nominal for Member, the fifth class, of the Royal Victorian Order. It is found three times in the article. Cheers. EricSerge (talk) 00:23, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oooops, yes, thanks EricSerge, you are quite right, I did not look far enough into the article. MVO is not mentioned in the intro or first section. By the way, I made MVO into a redirect page, as there is at least one other meaning for the acronym which now also has an article. Invertzoo (talk) 13:02, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just need to rember that about 100 links to MVO will need to be sorted out as well. MilborneOne (talk) 13:09, 2 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks MilborneOne for the reminder. I believe I have corrected all of those links this morning, except for a couple of mentions on talk pages which I thought I should maybe leave as is. Drop me a line on my talk page if anything else needs fixing. Invertzoo (talk) 14:36, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks I was going to help fix any outstanding but you seem to have found most of them, probably best to leave the talk page ones. MilborneOne (talk) 21:00, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Medal (RVM)

I was just reading through the article about the RVO at www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Honours/RoyalVictorianOrder.aspx and it does not list the Royal Victorian Medal as being a part of the Order. Nford24 (Want to have a chat?) 11:55, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are right it is not actually part of the order it is just associated with it. MilborneOne (talk) 12:20, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed it back to being a stand alone article along the lines of the British Empire Medal. Cheers. EricSerge (talk) 18:50, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is not accurate and the change was premature, one needs to keep in mind what an order is. An order is, in essence, an institution of chivalry or honour comprising its officers (ie those with some form of governance role), membership (those appointed to the order at whatever level) and associated practices, regalia, etc. Hence one is appointed to the order with a specific grade (also referred to as class; eg Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order, (capital 'm') Member of the Royal Victorian Order, etc) and can't be awarded a 'Member of the Royal Victorian Order' (despite what the media and many other often ignorantly write). It is also why posthumous appointment is generally not available. Notwithstanding, many of these orders also have medals of the order (in one or more grades). These are no less a part of the order than any of the other elements, however those upon whom they are conferred do not thereby gain (small 'm') membership of the order. So it is the recipient who ends up affiliated with the order (but not a member) rather than the medal itself that is affiliated. The RVM is such a medal and is covered by the statutes of the Royal Victorian Order (refer "No. 28607". The London Gazette. 14 May 1912. and "No. 34290". The London Gazette. 02 June 1936. {{cite magazine}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)). Likewise the British Empire Medal (which is not the official title) is part of the Order of the British Empire and is covered by the Order's statutes (refer "No. 35141". The London Gazette. 18 April 1941.) If a medal is established outside the statutes of an order, then there may be a case to argue that that medal is affiliated with the order rather than a part of the order. Having recently checked some of my references, issues with the BEM article aren't just restricted to claiming it is affiliated to the order (rather than part of it) but also to the whole historical development. I will have a look at this when I get more time. AusTerrapin (talk) 19:16, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was just making the point that the medal is not listed as being part of the order on the Queen's official website is all....Nford24 (Want to have a chat?) 22:08, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I boldly made some improvements to the sickly stub/start that it was. If there is a consensus that my efforts were in vain, then revert them. That is the beauty of Wikipedia. Cheers. EricSerge (talk) 01:07, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, apologies if my response came across as brusk - I know both of you edit in good faith as does MilbourneOne. Eric, unfortunately you got in just before I was able to post my reply (got an edit conflict when I tried to send it). So it wasn't unable to catch you in time. No problems with WP:BOLD - my remark was intended more as an ironic statement and certainly not as a criticism. The work in updating the details on the medal is certainly not wasted, the question is more one of whether to have a separate article or merge into the article on the order (which would be my preference). AusTerrapin (talk) 08:42, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Number of living members?

Does anyone know approximately how many members of all grades belong to the RVO? I know that the RVO, unlike some Orders such as the Order of Merit and the Order of the Companions of Honour, has no limitation on the number of members. So superficially, one might expect that it would have approximately the same ratio between grades as that of the Order of the British Empire. That Order, with five grades, has 100 GBEs, 845 KBEs, 8,960 CBEs, about 100,000 OBEs and MBEs; roughly 1:10:100:10,000. Since the RVO is stated as having 62 members of GCVO (the top of its five grades), one might extrapolate that there would be about 500 KCVOs, 5,000 CVOs, and 50,000 LVOs and MVOs. However, that seems unlikely to me, as each member of the Order would have to have some connection with a member of the royal family. Does anyone know any actual numbers? Bricology (talk) 09:28, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'd guess that the best way to get an estimate would be to look through the last, say, five honours lists, and count how many people were appointed to each grade. That should give you a reasonably accurate impression of the ratios involved (although you'd have to take promotions within the order into account). (As an aside, presumably you meant 1:10:100:1,000 in relation to the Order of the British Empire.) Proteus (Talk) 10:21, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]