Talk:The Doctor

Main Image Debate

Moving this to it's own section as the topic has mostly been buried. There has been some debate over the page image. Should the John Hurt Doctor be included? If so, should he be in-between McGann and Eccleston according to in-universe continuity or after Matt Smith in keeping with real world performance order. As this has been a topic of some heated debate, my suggestion is we simply show only the current Doctor (or the original Doctor) in the image box. We can move the in-universe multiple Doctor image (with Hurt in-between McGann and Eccleston) to a less contentious place within the body of the article.Stamfordbminus (talk) 08:41, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the BBC currently have Hurt's picture inserted between Eccleston's and Tennant's on this composite produced to celebrate the show's 50th Anniversary: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-25466389. Seems like good evidence that they consider him a 'true' Doctor. Catiline63 (talk) 12:51, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

This has already been said and acknowledged. The debate is 0% about whether Hurt is a legitimate Doctor within the fictional story.Zythe (talk) 14:09, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

I suggest that official multiple Doctor image is what we should use within the body of the article. For the main page image, is anyone objecting to the use of a single Doctor image?Stamfordbminus (talk) 22:35, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

I think the "current/First Doctor" compromise makes sense. I don't know what the Fair Use would be on a promo image in the article.Zythe (talk) 22:38, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Besides, that promo image is already out of date. I suggest an image of Twelfth Doctor for infobox as soon as a suitable one emerges. I can't see anybody arguing to keep the composite there. Rubiscous (talk) 16:33, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Yup. I think the problem was everyone trying to make the new situation "make sense" in terms of the old parameters. I think we could probably also revise the Doctor incarnations template so there's no "chronology," as now that in-universe and out-of-universe meanings of that term have radically diverged it is no longer a useful parameter.Zythe (talk) 18:01, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

The issue I have with Template:Doctorwhodoctor is that real-world and in-universe are mixed. "Companions" should be moved below the (retitled) separator, and "series" should be moved above it. I've no problem with including key fictional elements as long as they take a back seat and are clearly signposted. Rubiscous (talk) 00:50, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I do formally object (just to satisfy those who think edit summaries are there to be ignored). As the article applies to all Doctors, the infobox should reflect this, so the multi-Doctor image should be in the infobox. Moving it down and replacing the image in the infobox with a poorly made screenshot also results inoveruse of non-free images on this page, which should be kept to a minimum. There will be a suitable image for the 12th Doctor soon enough, which can then be included in the multi-Doctor image. Until then, there is no reason to force Capaldi in there one way or the other, just for the sake of having an image in there. Wikipedia has no deadline. — Edokter (talk) — 09:53, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Nobody's ignoring edit summaries, but one edit summary doesn't overrule talk page consensus. As the subject had been discussed for weeks, with no objection thus far, the move was not bold, making your move back the bold edit to be discussed ;) The choice of image to replace the montage is a separate issue to whether the montage should be replaced. If the current image of Capaldi is unsuitable then we can use another image of a single Doctor, such as one of Hartnell as has already been suggested. The article applies to the Doctor, which is a single character. We don't need to display all of his incarnations, and as recent arguments have shown, choosing which incarnations to include/exclude is an issue too contentious for the infobox. Infoboxes should be kept simple, all we need is a simple depiction of the character. I agree that the current Capaldi image is far from ideal, ideally he would have his sonic screwdriver etc. It's not necessary to show each actor visually, the infobox clearly states that the role has been played by multiple actors, highlighting series leads, and then goes on to list his incarnations in full. The montage adds little, goes against MOS infobox brevity, and causes editorial issues. Rubiscous (talk) 16:08, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

I think it is important to retain the composite image as the main image. This article has the challenge of describing the complex (real world) history of a fictional character who has been portrayed in a rather unique way. Showing the different portrayals of the Doctor right off the bat is one of the most effective ways to do that in a visual way for the reader to do that. Showing the current Doctor is simply recentism; he isn't any more significant than any other Doctor from our perspective.--Trystan (talk) 17:37, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

The real world progression of actors playing a character is far from unique. Only the plot device is unique. Showing a composite of actors in character may have meaning to those already well familiar with the show but it doesn't describe this unique aspect of the Doctor to the uninitiated. You could do the same with James Bond actors, it's meaningless. The best way of visually describing the fact that the Doctor regenerates would be to depict him mid-regeneration. And is portraying regeneration, which only rears its head occasionally, more important than depicting other unique aspects such as the tardis which appears in almost every episode? I feel that rather than highlighting the differences between portrayals, we should focus on trying to communicate the elements that are universal to all. Rubiscous (talk) 20:55, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

The second paragraph of the lead provides a good intro to both the history of the portrayal of the character and the related plot device of regeneration. To have a single actor's image accompany that text would strike me as conspicuously lacking.--Trystan (talk) 06:03, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

To a lot of readers, the current image is conspicuously lacking John Hurt. Until we are able to source a suitable image of Peter Capaldi, it is conspicuously lacking him. Can you think of a way of communicating this aspect of the Doctor's character graphically without the expectation for the image to be exhaustive? It's only going to get worse as years go on. Rubiscous (talk) 13:55, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps we could use an actual multi-Doctor photo like this or this for the infobox? It would quickly convey the idea of multiple distinct incarnations co-existing in the same fiction, along with the idea that each Doctor has a unique look and costume. It would never have to be updated, it wouldn't swell the infobox too badly, and the fact that it's a group photograph makes it immediately clear to the reader that it's non-exhaustive, so people won't attempt to edit John Hurt into the middle of it this time (well, one can hope!). It also has the added bonus of featuring the vitally important William Hartnell. —Flax5 00:02, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I have restored the composite image in the infobox, for reasons stated above, PLUS the added reason that any replacement image lacks any fair use rationale for THIS article. Please respect our rules for use of non-free images and do not replace it with any other images that do not have a fair use rationale for this article. Thank you. — Edokter (talk) — 23:16, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, no, surely you've restored it PURELY due to fair use rationale concerns, and nothing to do with your reasons stated above, as otherwise that would put you at risk of having broken 3RR wouldn't it? ;) Rubiscous (talk) 00:10, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Consensus seems to have changed as well; I am not the only one objecting this change. And fair use rationale is a very valid argument. The burden on providing one falls to the editors wanting to include any other images. — Edokter (talk) — 21:20, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not saying lack of fair use rationale isn't a valid argument for removing an image from an article, I'm just suggesting that when making such a revert as your 4th revert within 24 hours you should take care to distance your reason for the revert from your reasons for the previous 3, so that nobody is in any doubt that you're claiming exemption under point 5 of WP:3RRNO. I may disagree with you on this issue but certainly have no desire to see you blocked. Rubiscous (talk) 23:57, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

So here we are still with no solution. Hurt is not included in the image. Capaldi is not included in the image. We have not switched to a single Doctor image. The image (as is) represents a non-linear in-universe progression of the character - Long story short, from an encyclopedic point of view this is a failure. There is no real way to satisfy both the in-universe perspective and the character lead perspective with a sequential series of images. To be clear, I would prefer Hurt in the main image in-between McGann and Eccleston, but that direction only satisfies one half of the equation. That leaves us a single choice. One Doctor. As for the idea that the article applies to "All Doctors" - differing faces aside, there is only one Doctor. The fact that he has been portrayed by multiple actors is covered well enough in list form and the (suggested) existence of a multiple Doctor image elsewhere in the article.Stamfordbminus (talk) 19:57, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

What's the rush? There is no deadline. Fact is, there is no suitable image for the 12th, yet. Nothing we can do about that; we have to wait if we want to comply with policy. — Edokter (talk) — 22:30, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

There is no rush. But there is also no need to wait. Matt Smith is still the most recent actor to star in an episode. Alternately we can also simply use an image of Hartnell.Stamfordbminus (talk) 22:43, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Collage removed again

So Stamfordbminus unilaterally decides there is a consensus by the fact I "dropped out of the conversation"? His sense of consensus seems to be that if you hammer your opinion enough that other editors are worn out opposing him, you have somehow reached "consensus". I have read this entire page three times now, and I cannot find the consensus to remove the collage. Please point me to where this conclusion was reached. — Edokter (talk) — 22:22, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

If it is the fact that the long-established 11-image version doesn't happen to include Hurt (who was never lead-credited as the Doctor) or Capaldi (who had yet to be lead-credited as the Doctor) is the reason to change to the single image ... that's bogus. As said above, there is no deadline; when Capaldi's episodes start airing, or we get a good BBC promo image of him in costume (remember the original Matt Smith one out of costume???? hahaha), we don't have to rush to have him present. And I see no reason to include Hurt, as otherwise the same logic says we have to include the Valeyard (which we aren't). --MASEM (t) 23:11, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

@Edokter - If you had more to add then you were free to add it. You never responded. So yes, you dropped out of the conversation. That's just simple fact. And no, I certainly did not "unilaterally decide" anything. the discussion transpired over several weeks.

Seriously... You need to learn what consensus really means. It does not mean "the absense of repeated opposals". The fact I no longer post does not in any way imply that I agree with you, nor does it mean that my opinion is no longer valid; it only means I do not like to repeat myself. Several editors have rebutted your reasoning (and your "conclusions") and you choose to ignore them. Whatever the reason you think the image should be removed is not there; it exists only in your mind. Again: simply waiting for opposing views to die out doesn not constitute a consensus. — Edokter (talk) — 23:59, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I repeatedly said "previous" consensus. And qualified that it was reached "before" your participation. So think about that, and reread what you wrote above. I think you will see your misunderstanding. Regardless, I have no problem with you weighing and discussing your opinions, but you never addressed most of the points made for the change. So what should I do in a vacuum? You have strong feelings on this matter? Weigh in! But if you drop out without addressing the full topic...Stamfordbminus (talk) 00:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

(See reply below) — Edokter (talk) — 01:15, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

@Masem - The reasons are well outlined above. But to summarize, the image is either an in-universe consecutive image of the show's lead character or a consecutive image of the lead actor. Either way, the image is potentially misleading. After much arguing and edit warring over the two options, I proposed a third. A single Doctor image while creating an in-universe multi-Doctor image to elsewhere in the article. There was a general consensus on this topic before Edokter joined the conversation. As for the deadline issue that Edokter mentioned: Not an issue. The original actor is sufficient, or Matt Smith, who is still the most recent actor to lead the show. We can switch to Capaldi after his episodes begin airing.Stamfordbminus (talk) 23:41, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Unless the multidoctor image is a collage created by the BBC, this would be excessive non-free use. And the present 11-pic version is accurate, as there have been 11 lead Doctor characters to date, no more, no less. The deadline is that you can wait to change it until consensus is determined and given that last week was a major holiday week for most people, it doesn't make sense to consider the discussion closed because one person didn't respond. --MASEM (t) 00:01, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I think you have your timelines confused. This dialog went on for weeks, and Edokter stopped responding after the holidays while still responding elsewhere. He checked out, which is fine. And if I recall correctly (as this dialog has gone on elsewhere) there is a BBC official multi-Doctor image. Even then, are you saying we have to have one that is official? All I'm saying is we incorporate Hurt into the pre-existing one and place it in a more relevant space in the article.Stamfordbminus (talk) 00:17, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

My read of the timelines does not show enough time to pass to assure 1) consensus was clear to change and 2) eDokter dropped out, when assuming good faith. In regards to the image, the point is if you use a single doctor image in the infobox and later the current 11-image montage that is constructed from several different stills, that's a violation of NFC as you dont need the extra single image of the doctor (The 11 image montage is counted as 11 NFC items but necessary to showcase all the main iterations here). On the other hand, if there is a good collage of all the Doctors made by the BBC, then that 11-image version can be replaced by the single image, and that would likely reduce non-free to a level that a single image of the doctor could be fine for the infobox. But of the collage images I've seen from the BBC so far, none of them are a really good replacement for the 11-image version we have so far. --MASEM (t) 00:27, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

There was an agreement between three editors, and an opposing view from two others (me included). Next to this not-to-be-confused-with-consensus-disagreement, we now have again an image that does not have a fair-use rationale for this page. That is all the reason enough to revert you. But I'll give you a chance first to do so first. (I will remove the first doctor image in order to make the article comply with WP:NFCC.) — Edokter (talk) — 23:59, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, there were more editors involved as this was not the first location for this discussion. As for removal - Wikipedia encourages boldness. I have given you plenty of time to participate in a discussion that majority had weighed in on. If you want to change it, start a new discussion. As you've seen over the last few days, the attempt to include Hurt and Capaldi continues, as does the divide on how the collage should be assembled. If you have an alternative that will help mett people in the middle, I am more than happy to hear it. As for "fair Use rationale", I admit I am unfamiliar with some of the logistics. this is an image from the First Doctor page so we have some legitimate claim to use it and it was already on this page within the collage. If there is a small amount of paperwork to be done to legitimize it further, point me in the correct direction and I will take care of it.Stamfordbminus (talk) 00:17, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

It's a weak sort of consensus to rely on that only exists for a few days until the editors who disagree show up. As I said above, I think some form of multi-Doctor image is important for the article, if we are renewing our objections.--Trystan (talk) 01:03, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it was a borne from intense debate over a longer period of time between parties that were in disagreement. The single image solution was offered up to help reach an accord between divided factions. So you want the collage? Great! But which one. Because as it is in your latest post, you're not quite addressing the issue.166.137.191.41 (talk) 01:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "previous" consensus; consensus must always be current. What should be done when there is no agreement is to let things stand as they are. Change needs consensus. And that does not mean rehashing the same argument ove and over again until others grow too tired to respond; people must actually agree with you. I already said I don't like to repeat myself (even if you do). I have given my opinion, and it stands until I retract them, not until you decide I haven't responded long enough. Agreement is the key to consensus, not a popularity vote, or some self-enforced compromise.

About fair use, go read WP:NFC, which explains all you need to know about our image use policies. — Edokter (talk) — 01:15, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you and I have barely exchanged any words here. Where is this "rehashing" you keep mentioning? Perhaps I missed it, but you have yet to address the argument as I made it for the single image. Your rationale seems to be "I don't like it!" - okay, so how would you address the fact that the collage is potentially misleading with Hurt included and potentially misleading with Hurt excluded? This is an issue with the quality of this article that should be properly addressed, whether you want to participate or not.166.137.191.34 (talk) 01:34, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Furthermore, you know quite well that I have not been alone in the opinion if this change. You continue to load your posts with an extremely negative personal tone that borders on the attack. I'm beginning to think that you are to close to this topic and that perhaps you feel some form of ownership or need to "protect" this page. I'm happy to discuss these changes with you, but again, if you check out of the process that's on you. The single Doctor solution was borne out of several editors in disagreement talking about their issues - not splt digging their heels in and shutting down the discussion.166.137.191.15 (talk) 01:40, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. The way I'm reading WP:NFCC, specifically 3a - Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information, I take it that if a single official collage of Doctors exists then we must use it in place of one bodged together by an editor out of multiple non-free images? That the existence of the image suggested by Catiline63 in the above discussion [1] means that it should be used instead, and trumps any editorial concerns over the inclusion of John Hurt? Or if that still isn't suitable then Flax5's suggestion of an actual multi-Doctor photo like this or this? Does use of the current collage instead of any alternative single image significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, enough to satisfy WP:NFCC's point 8? Rubiscous (talk) 04:43, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree with your interpretation of NFCC, that a single non-free image collage should be used over one we make ourselves out of multiple non-free images. I don't think a single, non-collage image can convey the equivalent information, but the existence of a BBC composite makes that question moot, as far as NFCC is concerned.

I think the BBC 50th anniversary collage one is good; we just need a caption along the lines of, "A composite of 12 actors to play the Doctor, released by the BBC as part of the 50th Anniversary Special." Clarifying that the picture isn't one we made ourselves, and is from a particular point in time in the history of the show, helps defuse concerns about who exactly is shown.--Trystan (talk) 19:57, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I have seen that BBC image (as well as I think one that had Capaldi) at the end, but I do not believe that serves well to identify the Doctor character to those unfamiliar who whom the Doctor is - fans, yes; newbies, no. Further as soon as Capaldi leaves for the next actor, we'll need to redo our image in the first place, and we can't be sure the BBC will provide this. In terms of NFCC in considering why we should character images, per NFCC#8, the past user-made 11 image mosiac is the best solution than this BBC montage. --MASEM (t) 20:07, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Of course it's better. It would be a rare occurance that an image that has been custom built for a purpose isn't better at serving that purpose than an image appropriated from elsewhere. The question is whether or not it is significantly better. The improvement has to pass a threshold. Consider that if we use only one non-free image in the infobox instead of eleven then we could include a further ten non-free images elsewhere in the article and still have the same total number of non-free images. Is the improvement made by choosing the user-made montage over the BBC one really greater than the improvement to the article that could be brought by a different ten non-free images? Rubiscous (talk) 08:51, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Matt Smith is the thirteenth Doctor - infobox states eleventh

Matt Smith is the thirteenth Doctor, he says so in the Christmas special and it's the reason he needs a new regeneration cycle to become Capaldi (14th Doctor technically). The infobox currently states Matt Smith is eleventh, but this is incorrect since it doesn't count the "War Doctor" numerically and doesn't account for Christopher Eccleston regenerating and keeping the same face (mentioned in the Christmas Special 33 or 34 minutes in). So if the article states the doctor gets 13 incarnations, 1 from birth and 12 regenerations, then we can't call Capaldi the 12th Doctor, since it's incorrect and potentially confusing. I would like the infobox changed to state that Christopher Eccleston is tenth and eleventh, since this would correct things and count the War Doctor numerically sinc ehe still is The Doctor. The episode is still on iplayer if anyone wants to check this for confirmation, but it has to be changed either way as there's an issue with the infobox being in conflict with what both the BBC and our own article on regenerations state. Discussion welcome. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 21:59, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

It's not Eccelston that regenerated and kept the same face--it's Tennant (The Stolen Earth). This also goes to show that Tennant's Doctor is specifically referred to as Ten in the episode. DonQuixote (talk) 22:32, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

The infobox links to the articles we have about each incarnation of the Doctor, which are each named according to Wikipedia's policy on article names (see WP:COMMONNAME). We must name the articles according to how the incarnations are commonly described in the sources, and we should keep the infobox concise (see MOS:INFOBOX: When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize key facts in the article in which it appears. The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.). Rubiscous (talk) 22:41, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Jenova, let me start by saying that I completely agree with you. In my fannish heart of hearts, I call Hurt the Ninth Doctor, Eccleston the Tenth, Tennant the Eleventh and Twelfth, Smith the Thirteenth, and Capaldi the Fourteenth -- to be fair, I also count series from 1963, not 2005, so we just wrapped up the 35th season as far as I'm concerned, not the seventh.

Unfortunately, word of god states otherwise -- Moff says Eccleston's still the Ninth, Tennant's the Tenth, Smith's the Eleventh, Capaldi's the Twelfth, and Hurt's numberless, and he's the one who gets to make that declaration... however wrongly he wants to make it, same as the Beeb can inaccurately but officially reset the series number.  ;)

I suppose the difference Moff wants is that while Tennant was the eleventh and twelfth Doctors chronologically, he's still The Tenth Doctor and Smith is The Eleventh Doctor and Capaldi is The Twelfth Doctor (even though the Capaldi Doctor clearly recognizes he's the 13th in The Day of the Doctor... even though he's chronologically the 14th... excuse me while my head explodes), and we should regard the (capitalized) numbering scheme as an identifier rather than as an actual count. That's unfortunately the official terminology and that's what the infobox should reflect -- although it also should both include Hurt in the list as he is now a canonical Doctor within the series continuity, and indicate the disconnect between the Doctors' ordinals after McGann, and the actual number of regenerations used. The Rev (talk) 01:54, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Why would Ten be two Doctors if he didn't change? One incarnation, two regenerations. Eleven is the Eleventh Doctor, twelfth body, thirteenth chance at life. Also, Capaldi doesn't speak in TDOTD - a Time Lord recognises "thirteen" TARDISes in the air. Zythe (talk) 11:43, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

The BBC explain everything here http://www.doctorwho.tv/whats-new/article/watch-the-doctors-13-regenerations thanks Kelvin 101 (talk)

Anyway, the regeneration in "The Stlen Earth" was aborted, so it wasn't a full regeneration even if it may have "used the energy" of one full regeneration. So Tennant only played one incarnation. As for the War Doctor, he was a character not fully regenerated from the 8th Doctor was not even worthy of the name. he was the Doctor but still he wasn't. So Smith was the 11th. Arms Jones (talk) 14:28, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Matt Smith is the 12 actor to play as the Doctor, currently there are 13 Doctors/Actors playing the main Doctors in the TV series so technically Matt Smith is the 12th, that's regardless of whether the Doctor used up 2 regeneration's in 1 Doctor because that regeneration didn't change into a different person until the 2nd regeneration which is why Peter's easter egg was known as the 13th Doctor when is mentioned by one of the Time-lords in 'Day of the Doctor' when the 13 Tardis's turned up.

Adding something

I don't know if you would count this as Original Research or whatever but anyways, since you state on the page under the Accent section that although David Tennant is Scottish they asked him to speak with a British accent, I have something to add on to that, in the 50th anniversary special (I believe its called "Day of the Doctor" the "of the Doctor" titles are confusing me as to which one is which a bit) when Tennant (as the 10th Doctor) is speaking to Elizabeth I she says something to the effect of "you are a great British Man" (I'm not actually sure if thats the quote cause I've only seen the Special twice, and don't remember the line very well) and Tennant replies with "I'm not British", I feel that since it's stated in universe that something should be added into that section mentioning that. also I just remembered something else. in the section that mentions the Doctors Wives (forgive me for not remembering the title you put on it) you have the quote from the 10th Doctor that refers to Elizabeth I stating "Virgin Queen, not anymore" or something to that effect, well in the 50th Anniversary special, something similar is said "so much for the Virgin Queen" after she kisses the Doctor, I'm not sure if you are wanting to add that or not but whatever, just thought I would let you guys know of these things so it can be updated and such a bit more than it already is. 98.154.187.240 (talk) 21:01, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

The actors are going have to speak in some accent and the programme is British.. There's no point in my opinion adding what you say as it is, frankly confusing and adds nothing to the article. They didn't want the Scottish accent because they didn't want Who to be regional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcs2050wiki (talk • contribs) 17:36, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

• Actually, not true. First, Sylvester McCoy was allowed to keep his Scottish accent. Second, Christopher Eccleston not only kept his Northern accent, it was mentioned in dialogue with the immortal "Lots of planets have a North" line. What happened was Russell T Davies, producer at the time, didn't want a regional accent right after Eccleston, hence the decision to have Tennant execute "received pronunciation" (if the article uses the phrase "British accent" it's wrong because there are 100 British accents, including Welsh, Northern, Scottish etc). With Tennant and Smith now behind us, the door has opened for a regional accent again, hence the (confirmed by the BBC) decision to have Capaldi keep his accent. 68.146.70.124 (talk) 19:05, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Transitions

The War Doctor is not the Ninth Doctor and should therefore not be numbered 9. in the list under this headline. Arms Jones (talk) 20:39, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

He's not being listed as the 9th doctor, he's clearly labelled the "War Doctor". The number at the start appears to be indicating the transition number. But, that is problematic as well for other reasons.

Actually, I would argue that the auto-number scheme should be removed entirely from that section. The text label of the doctor number is adequate, so the number isn't really serving a purpose here. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this is a completely pointless edit war where people are choosing to interpret the numbers differently. Mezigue (talk) 21:49, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. That sounds like a reasonable compromise. --‖ Ebyabe ^talk - Inspector General ‖ 21:50, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, removing the numbers is a good idea. (Thanks for finally agreeing to discuss this, Ebyabe.) Arms Jones (talk) 22:11, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Would there be any complaints about changing the layout of this section? Instead of just a list... a table of the regeneration cycles showing all doctors, the actor who played them and any other important info with footnotes for how they actually died and regenerated? Lupercus (talk) 20:49, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Unless the show portrays second-cycle Doctors as in some way distinct from the first-cycle ones then we should not make any effort to separate them. We can give due mention to regeneration cycles in the prose. Rubiscous (talk) 12:51, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. We should make our emphasis the real world terms (the change of actor, the plot device called regeneration, etc. etc.) and internal fictive details should be addressed in prose, albeit not at run-on length.Zythe (talk) 17:00, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

There is a table on the Doctor Who page showing the transitions between the Actors only... I propose this type of table here to show the chain of regenerations. I doubt there will be any actual difference between 1st-cycle/2nd-cycle doctors, however I would still recommend the table be split to show who was 1st cycle and who was 2nd to keep it consistent with the 12 regenerations rule. Lupercus (talk) 17:12, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

This isn't a Doctor Who fansite!Zythe (talk) 11:03, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Add adding this type of table turns it into a fansite? What is so wrong with a simple table showing some basic info in a nice clean fashion? Lupercus (talk) 19:05, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

It's unencyclopaedic info. It's already mentioned in prose in an encyclopaedic tone. Building a table around it is unnecessary and fannish. DonQuixote (talk) 19:41, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you should review "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not/Unencyclopedic" instead of just throwing out a word to make you look like a big shot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.91.252.132 (talk) 20:10, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Er...perhaps you should review it. But to the point, as has been pointed out, it is precisely unencyclopaedic because it focuses on an in-universe perspective which contravenes the academic protocols for writing about fiction. So no, I'm not throwing words around, you're failing to understand or unwilling to understand how to write about fiction. DonQuixote (talk) 21:08, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Am I lost or is this not for an article about an in-universe character and would therefore include in-universe info? Lupercus (talk) 17:38, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

This is an article about a fictional character written from a real world perspective in a real world tone with real world info. You can read WP:WAF for more information (which you're failing to do). DonQuixote (talk) 17:51, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Even if we were writing from an in-universe perspective this proposal would be daft. What answers are we supposed to glean from such a table? Which regeneration cycle was the First Doctor? Oh, I see, the first. Which regeneration cycle was the Second Doctor? Oh, I see, the first. Which regeneration cycle was the Third Doctor? Oh, I see, the first. Which regeneration cycle was the Fourth Doctor? Oh, I see, the first. In 1982 there was the incident with the pigeon. Which regeneration cycle was the Sixth Doctor? Oh, I see, the first. Which regeneration cycle was the Seventh Doctor? Oh, I see, the first. Which regeneration cycle was the Eighth Doctor? Oh, I see, the first. Which regeneration cycle was the Ninth... I mean, I could go on. Rubiscous (talk) 00:18, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Do go on... "Which regeneration cycle was the Twelfth Doctor? Oh, I see... uh... actually, I don't see. Hmm, weird." Lupercus (talk) 18:17, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I would have fallen asleep by that point. Rubiscous (talk) 20:11, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Infobox image

I know it's an obvious point, but the infobox image needs to be updated to include the War Doctor and Twelfth Doctor. As I recall, Smith's image was added within about an hour of his regeneration airing back in 2010. 68.146.70.124 (talk) 19:06, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

The BCC released a suitable image soon after Smith's regeneration. No image for Capaldi yet. Also, Hurt was not a lead. — Edokter (talk) — 20:36, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Should the portions of the picture link to the Doctors or to the Actors? It's been bounced back and forth lately, it seems. I just reverted the last change because it broke the link somehow (and I don't really understand how), but it does seem as though it should link to the parts since the actor list is just below in link form. Mezigue (talk) 09:08, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

He was most certainly a lead. If you're arguing that he isn't the lead in a series then your argument also rules out Paul McGann for inclusion in the infobox. I think we should include John Hurt in chronological position in the infobox image (between Mcgann and Eccleston (It's awkward not to)). Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 15:06, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

No, he guest-starred. McGann starred in the film, which is part of the series. Mezigue (talk) 15:36, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

How is the Day of the Doctor not part of the series then? Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 15:34, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

It's part of the series, but as in the credits for it, Hurt is not a lead actor, he is a guest actor. Regardless how canon his incarnation his, his limit of being "guest star" does not qualify him to be included in the montage of "lead actors that have played the Doctor". --MASEM (t) 15:44, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

That's a technicality. Call the infobox image the "actors to have played the Doctor" and it solves everything. Otherwise it's nitpicking. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 14:16, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Or leave it as it is and there is nothing to solve - even better! Mezigue (talk) 15:09, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

No, it's not a technicality, it's history. Hurt is not part of the main cast. Similar to how Tony Todd will never be listed as series cast of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine even though he played an older version of Jake Sisko. So no. Please take the time to learn about writing about fiction. DonQuixote (talk) 15:13, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

The Doctor doesn't work by the same rules as other characters. As long as he's in the infobox, I'm happy, and he is. I won't push for an image of Hurt because it would mess up the formatting and everything is neat and tidy. But the record shows that John Hurt appeared as the Doctor in three episodes of the series; McGann appeared in two, so he as just as much right to be there as McGann does. 68.146.70.124 (talk) 22:22, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

"Rights" have nothing to do with it. Mezigue (talk) 23:13, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I appear to be in the minority, but it still strikes me as odd that Hurt is not included. McGann has 1 film and 1 mini appearance under his belt. Hurt has a tv special and 2 other appearances. Why the favouritism towards McGann and refusal to recognise Hurt? Both or none, fair enough, but one and not the other mystifies me. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 14:09, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

McGann was the lead for two episodes, and was the current Doctor for nine years. Hurt was a guest star for three episodes, and was never the current Doctor. In real-world terms it's a major distinction. —Flax5 15:47, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

No one's refusing to recognise Hurt's incarnation as legitimate within the fiction. But context is key.Zythe (talk) 16:24, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Official first shot of Capaldi's outfit

[2]. Shame there's no BG but now we can talk about modifying the core image. --MASEM (t) 18:35, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

• [3] More official article from BBC directly. --MASEM (t) 18:42, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
  • That Twitter account is as oficial as any BBC source. Image updated. — Edokter (talk) — 19:47, 27 January 2014 (UTC)