Talk:Bob Beers (politician, born 1959)

Major contributor with conflict warning confession

Yes, I am the fellow whom this article is about. I welcome objective clean-up, but have lately been having to clean-up "adjustments" to the article by partisan operatives who are far too clever to be obvious about their conflicts. Let me be very obvious about mine. Life would be easier if I didn't have a Wikipedia article about me which my partisan opponents can freely manipulate, and I am attempting to petition the admins to protect the article to prevent this. In the meantime, it is not my style to disguise my identity, or hire others to do it under a cloak.Bob Beers 00:37, 16 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobbeers (talk • contribs)

Page rename/move request

I had moved this page to Robert T. Beers back in December to create a disambiguation page for Bob Beers. I was recently contacted by the subject of the article with a request to move it back to Bob Beers since he has never answered to the name Robert.. Since we need the DAB page, I can't move it to Bob Beers, and since there are two Bob Beers who are Nevada politicians, Bob Beers (politician) is out.. One suggestion was Bob Beers (CPA) since that was his career before politics and he is still a CPA in addition to being a politician. Others include Bob T. Beers, Bob Beers (Nevada Senator), although the latter could eventually require disambiguation.. are there any other suggestions/preferences? --Versageek 14:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Notability

Is this person really that notable to have an article?71.108.130.79 (talk) 09:00, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Requesting protection but not sure how to achieve it.

15 Aug 2014 - A minor "editing war" has arisen with a partisan editor creating increased ambiguity on this page. An entry has been created on the Biographies of Living Persons noticeboard [1] to petition administrators to either lock or remove altogether this Wikipedia entry about me. 21:11, 15 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by bobbeers (talk • contribs)

Mr. Beers, please familiarise yourself with Wikipedia's policies on assuming good faith and editing with a conflict of interest. I am not a "partisan editor" so please do not go throwing around things like that just because someone moves your page.

The article should be at Bob Beers (Nevada politician) or Bob Beers (politician). There is no ambiguity as the "other Bob Beers" doesn't have a Wikipedia article. Articles that need disambiguating are not listed according to the person's current job. So, for example, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker is at Scott Walker (politician) and not Scott Walker (Governor). Likewise, Chris Murphy (politician), John Walsh (U.S. politician), Jack Reed (politician), Tim Johnson (South Dakota politician), Mike Lee (U.S. politician) and Ron Johnson (U.S. politician). As for what Harry Reid's page says, that is not relevant to this article.

Articles aren't moved around based on the person's job. If he stays on the city council he should still be at Bob Beers (politician), if he gets voted out of office, still at Bob Beers (politician) and if he's elected to some other office, he should still be at Bob Beers (politician). The article wouldn't be moved to Bob Beers (CPA) or Bob Beers (State Senator). Tiller54 (talk) 00:44, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

We disagree, anon fellow with the nom de plum Tiller54. The construct of an opponent's Wikipedia entry is very pertinent to the construct of mine. And in Nevada, "politician" is not a career, as evidenced by my exit from poliics in 2008 into a completely non-political life, for three years anyway. Titling me "Las Vegas City Councilman" (if you must subtitle me at all) is much more accurate than "Nevada Politician." Especially because two people with my name have held elected office in this state.

So, if consensus cannot be reached, is the article left as it was prior to your "objective" edits? Or perhaps the solution is to move my article to merely "Bob Beers", the same as Harry's?Bob Beers 00:54, 16 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobbeers (talk • contribs)

Two more things - tossing in the link to the "Inappropriate uses of alternative accounts" heading under "Sock Puppetry" shows a masterful command of irony in editing, given that I am transparent and you are not.

Second, you are factually incorrect, again, with your statement that the second Bob Beers holding elective office in Nevada does not have a Wikipedia account. I did not include that in my last missive as I merely believed it to be true, and did not know it factually. His article is linked from the disambiguation page.Bob Beers 00:59, 16 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobbeers (talk • contribs)

One more thing - please site your Wikipedia policy authority for your statement "Articles aren't moved around based on the person's job." I might buy it if articles weren't titled with people's job, but mine has been, by folks like you. Or, perhaps, there should be a Wikipedia policy dictating at what level of political activity Living Persons should be included or excluded from Wikipedia, and what should be included for those who warrant an article. Frankly, allowing paid staffers of campaigns and politicians to edit Wikipedia under opaque usernames ought not to be allowed, but it's already hard enough policing articles, much less policing volunteer editors.Bob Beers 01:09, 16 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobbeers (talk • contribs)

It is not "more accurate". The article would not have been titled "State Assemblyman" from 1998 to 2004 and then "State Senator" from 2004 to 2008 and then "CPA" from then until 2012. Article titles are consistent, not moved around whenever the person loses or wins an election, just like the examples I listed above are all at simply "politician". The other Bob Beers is at Bob L. Beers, which means that there is no overlap there. All that's needed is a note about which is which at the top of the article.

The link should have been to OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, not WP:OTHERSTUFF, or indeed WP:STUFF.

The policy on article titles is at WP:Article titles, where it states "Article titles should be recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent." Thus, moving an article's title around based on what political office he or she holds violates that policy. As does moving it to "Bob Beers (CPA)" as the article's notability does not come from his being a CPA but from his being a notable politician.

As to your question on notability of politicians, you're looking for this. Tiller54 (talk) 01:25, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I believe listing my current job in my title is more specific and useful than listing me as "Nevada Politician", which is as temporary and out of compliance with "WP:Article titles" than the change you've implemented and re-implemented. Perhaps, then, the compromise position is to move the disambiguity page to "Bob Beers (disambiguity)" and my article to just "Bob Beers"? Or move my article to just Robert 'Bob' Beers with no attempt to label what I do?Bob Beers 01:39, 16 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobbeers (talk • contribs)

You are notable, Bobbeers for being elected by the voters to three significant political offices, not for anything else. Though you may not like the label "politician", that is the neutral description for what makes you notable enough for an encyclopedia article. Because you are clearly notable, I will oppose on policy grounds any effort to delete this article. As for protecting it, that would be appropriate if there was persistent vandalism. Edits you do not like are not vandalism. We simply do not change article titles as people enter or leave various political offices. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:30, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, Cullen. Thus, no job title should be associated with the name of the topic that discusses me. That sounds like the reasonable compromise sought by this process. Who can make that happen?Bob Beers 03:29, 16 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobbeers (talk • contribs)

Great edits, Cullen. Many of the citations you request are in the form of physical certificates in my possession. What do you suggest would be appropriate ways to turn them into Wikipedia-acceptable "evidence"?Bob Beers 03:57, 16 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobbeers (talk • contribs)

The difficulty, Bobbeers, is that there are two politicians with the same name. Two Nevada politicians. Two Las Vegas politicians. Both former state legislators. Both Republicans. That makes it very difficult to distinguish between the two of you fairly in our Wikipedia article titles. I have no quick, ready answer. My guess is that you have faced this issue before. We use a middle initial for the other Bob Beers. Do you ever use a middle initial? How have you set yourself apart from the other guy in the past? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:02, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

With regards to the issue of the "citations needed" tags that I have added, we need an independent, reliable source for anything that can be considered the slightest bit promotional. Consider your high school and university accomplishments. Smith's January article in the Las Vegas Review-Journal confirms when you came to Nevada, the high school and university graduations and dates. All well and good. But we really need a similar mention in a similar independent source to mention the honors. The skeleton of a Wikipedia article ought to be what independent reliable secondary sources say about the topic. Our use of primary sources, like school certificates, should be strictly limited, and I do not think that school honors qualifies. But if an independent journalist writes a biographical piece mentioning these honors, it can be considered at that time. On another matter, direct editing of a Wikipedia article by the subject is strongly discouraged, except in cases of vandalism or indisputable factual errors. Instead, you should use this talk page to request changes, furnishing links to reliable sources in support of your proposed changes. Develop a relationship with editors (such as me) who are willing to help, and work through them. This will greatly reduce the chances for conflict about your biography. In conclusion, you may see on my user page that I am a Democrat off-Wikipedia. Here, though, I strive for scrupulously neutral coverage of politicians and campaigns. I see you distrust anonymous editors and you will see that I openly disclose my real world identity. I do not expect you to trust me based on words now, but rather based on my deeds going forward. I am a volunteer working on many projects here. But I will always have time to answer your questions and make your biography here comprehensive and accurate, based on what reliable sources say about you. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:45, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I am approaching the end of my ability to count semi-colons. Meanwhile, the reality is that Nevada has a citizen legislator. Folks with big-money backing can hire people to pose as non-conflicted Wiki editors, but I cannot. So while I completely understand the 'official' policy of not allowing subjects to edit articles about themselves, it fails against the fact that most of the only other people interested in my article work for my opponents. I don't know how Wikipedia gets around that. It's probably only an issue for the third of state legislatures who pay so little they must rely on a mostly-volunteer body of members?

I can scan and post my high school and college diplomas, and my 1982 AP award, and will do so, but I think they all fail the exacting standards of Wikipedia. If the admins insist on having a page for a minor fellow like me, but refuse to recognize original source documents as "proof" of past accomplishments, where do we go from here?Bob Beers 04:54, 16 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobbeers (talk • contribs)

Although humility is a virtue, you are not a "minor fellow" by Wikipedia's standards. We consider all state and provincial legislators notable, and you have been elected to both houses of the Nevada legislature, as well as to the council of a major, world famous city. You could have chosen to stay a low key CPA but you have instead chosen to run against the Senate Majority Leader. This is the big leagues. If you have evidence that someone is hiring editors to slant your article against you, then furnish the proof. Provide diffs. Name names. If you are right, I will chastise them, and come to your defense forcefully.

I am not contesting your high school or your UNLV degree, since Smith confirms that. But if neither Smith nor other LV political reporters mention the honors, why should Wikipedia do so? We are not your campaign brochure. We summarize what independent sources say about you, not what you say about yourself. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:09, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

As for the question of what to title the article, how about including the date of birth, as is done when several people have the same name? We could move Bob L. Beers to "Bob Beers (Nevada politician, born 1951)" and this article to "Bob Beers (Nevada politician, born 1959)"?

And no, Mr. Beers, I don't "work for your opponents". Tiller54 (talk) 10:13, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Ambiguity reduction summary - Aug 16, 2014

16 Aug 2014 - To summarize:16 Aug 2014 - To summarize:

An entry has been created on the Biographies of Living Persons noticeboard [2] to petition administrators to either lock or remove altogether this Wikipedia entry about me. This occurred after user Tiller54 performed a series of edits on the article about me that I believed increased ambiguity and/or reduced objectivity of the article.

A few commenters expressed mild fright at the concept of a subject of an article participating so directly in Wikipedia, citing editing with a conflict of interest. I noted that I am transparent about it, and that most people who make non-technical changes to Wikipedia articles about living persons are those who support or oppose them, especially in politics. The problem is endemic in all political discussion, including encyclopedia entries.

The heart of the debate was expressed by Tiller54 here:

The article should be at Bob Beers (Nevada politician) or Bob Beers (politician). There is no ambiguity as the "other Bob Beers" doesn't have a Wikipedia article. Articles that need disambiguating are not listed according to the person's current job. So, for example, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker is at Scott Walker (politician) and not Scott Walker (Governor). Likewise, Chris Murphy (politician), John Walsh (U.S. politician), Jack Reed (politician), Tim Johnson (South Dakota politician), Mike Lee (U.S. politician) and Ron Johnson (U.S. politician). As for what Harry Reid's page says, that is OTHERSTUFFEXISTS|not relevant to this article.

Articles aren't moved around based on the person's job. If he stays on the city council he should still be at Bob Beers (politician), if he gets voted out of office, still at Bob Beers (politician) and if he's elected to some other office, he should still be at Bob Beers (politician). The article wouldn't be moved to Bob Beers (CPA) or Bob Beers (State Senator). Tiller54 (talk) 00:44, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I corrected Tiller54's factual error, noting that the "other" Bob Beers is described in another Wikipedia article, thus the ambiguity does in fact exist.

I voiced my opinion that Tiller54's second paragraph seems to support a diversity of treatment of this matter, and certainly lacks consistency. Not all elected officials are tagged with "Politician" in addtion to their name as the title of their article, and requested of Tiller54 the Wikipedia article describing a preferred style for this disambiguity problem. It would seem particularly significant in my case, as my opponent (Harry Reid) does not carry any label on his Wikipedia article.

In the absense, I would contend that using a politician's current office is more specific than a generic label.

Tiller54 also asserted "Articles aren't moved around based on the person's job" so I requested the policy authority for his statement, suggesting it was merely his personal opinion.

Tiller54 responded:

It is not "more accurate". The article would not have been titled "State Assemblyman" from 1998 to 2004 and then "State Senator" from 2004 to 2008 and then "CPA" from then until 2012. Article titles are consistent, not moved around whenever the person loses or wins an election, just like the examples I listed above are all at simply "politician". The other Bob Beers is at Bob L. Beers, which means that there is no overlap there. All that's needed is a note about which is which at the top of the article.

The policy on article titles is at WP:Article titles, where it states "Article titles should be recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent." Thus, moving an article's title around based on what political office he or she holds violates that policy. As does moving it to "Bob Beers (CPA)" as the article's notability does not come from his being a CPA but from his being a notable politician.

As to your question on notability of politicians, you're looking for this. Tiller54 (talk) 01:25, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

User Cullen dropped by with some cleanup edits and agreed with Tiller54 that Wikipedia's policy requires an article about me, even if I find monitoring it for changes by opposing campaigns bothersome:

You are notable, Bobbeers for being elected by the voters to three significant political offices, not for anything else. Though you may not like the label "politician", that is the neutral description for what makes you notable enough for an encyclopedia article. Because you are clearly notable, I will oppose on policy grounds any effort to delete this article. As for protecting it, that would be appropriate if there was persistent vandalism. Edits you do not like are not vandalism. We simply do not change article titles as people enter or leave various political offices. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:30, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

and

The difficulty, Bobbeers, is that there are two politicians with the same name. Two Nevada politicians. Two Las Vegas politicians. Both former state legislators. Both Republicans. That makes it very difficult to distinguish between the two of you fairly in our Wikipedia article titles. I have no quick, ready answer. My guess is that you have faced this issue before. We use a middle initial for the other Bob Beers. Do you ever use a middle initial? How have you set yourself apart from the other guy in the past? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:02, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

With regards to the issue of the "citations needed" tags that I have added, we need an independent, reliable source for anything that can be considered the slightest bit promotional. Consider your high school and university accomplishments. Smith's January article in the Las Vegas Review-Journal confirms when you came to Nevada, the high school and university graduations and dates. All well and good. But we really need a similar mention in a similar independent source to mention the honors. The skeleton of a Wikipedia article ought to be what independent reliable secondary sources say about the topic. Our use of primary sources, like school certificates, should be strictly limited, and I do not think that school honors qualifies. But if an independent journalist writes a biographical piece mentioning these honors, it can be considered at that time. On another matter, direct editing of a Wikipedia article by the subject is strongly discouraged, except in cases of vandalism or indisputable factual errors. Instead, you should use this talk page to request changes, furnishing links to reliable sources in support of your proposed changes. Develop a relationship with editors (such as me) who are willing to help, and work through them. This will greatly reduce the chances for conflict about your biography. In conclusion, you may see on my user page that I am a Democrat off-Wikipedia. Here, though, I strive for scrupulously neutral coverage of politicians and campaigns. I see you distrust anonymous editors and you will see that I openly disclose my real world identity. I do not expect you to trust me based on words now, but rather based on my deeds going forward. I am a volunteer working on many projects here. But I will always have time to answer your questions and make your biography here comprehensive and accurate, based on what reliable sources say about you. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:45, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

The Article Titles guidance that "Article titles should be recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent."

I think Tiller54 and Cullen are suggesting that by "consistent" the policy demands that article titles never change. I disagree with this interpretation. That would be better described by selecting the word "constant" for the policy. I believe "consistent" means that it is the same style choices for every article, a measure by which Wikipedia is currently inconsistent.

The Article Title guidance above does not address the problem here, which involves sacrificing conciseness and precision (the default article title would be the person's name with no embellishment) on the altar of ambiguity (you have multiple people with the same name).

The most recent addition was from Tiller54 suggesting titling the article with "the date of birth, as is done when several people have the same name? We could move Bob L. Beers to "Bob Beers (Nevada politician, born 1951)" and this article to "Bob Beers (Nevada politician, born 1959)"?.

I would propose the Wikipedia community promulgate a new standard for titling articles about multiple people with the same name, whereby no job titles are included in article titles but middle initials (or names, if they are used) are used to delineate.

Under that standard, the article about me would be moved to "Bob T. Beers".