Talk:History of St. Mary's College of Maryland

This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Maryland High‑importance

	Maryland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Maryland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of Maryland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MarylandWikipedia:WikiProject MarylandTemplate:WikiProject MarylandMaryland articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Higher education Start‑class

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Higher education, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of higher education, universities, and colleges on Wikipedia. Please visit the project page to join the discussion, and see the project's article guideline for useful advice.Higher educationWikipedia:WikiProject Higher educationTemplate:WikiProject Higher educationHigher education articles
Start	This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

Can a school contribute/have input to a Wikipedia article about itself?

The answer is yes (a qualified yes). This includes additions, deletions, and other aspects as well. (With caveats that should be learned about).

There are a number of ways that an institution of higher learning can ensure that the job of getting a complete Wikipedia article is achieved. But it takes learning a little about Wikipedia in order to get the job done.

Or can just input into the editorial process.

There are also limits, but the school can have a lot of input, through a variety of channels.

I encourage tasking someone to learn more about it.

This does not require advanced professional training--

Wikipedia is edited by volunteers. The school probably already has Wikipedia volunteers in it's community. Just ask around.

There are also special pages on Wikipedia were you can ask for volunteers to help out. Just do a little research.

Also library staff are considered "information workers" by Wikipedia and may edit an article for an institution (if the college allots them sufficient time to prioritize it), (it can be time consuming) (following Wikipedia guidelines, of course which are easy to learn).

Wikipedia is not hard to learn, it's designed to let someone start editing almost right away.

Anyway, I'm going to be moving on soon, to other projects, but these options might help the school learn how it can input into this article.

Best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 00:28, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just created this new article

There are three or four citation errors that happened when copying the article over. It's almost certain that the root citations are still over on the St. Mary's College of Maryland website, somewhere in that original article.

I am wrapping up my involvement with these articles, so if anyone else wants to fix that, thanks in advance.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 19:54, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

St. Mary's College (and the old Seminary) were never a part of the plantation

The article has never stated otherwise, however I have added some more passages to the article.

(If needed) in order just to make it clear, the plantation was next door to the school (which was always a state school) and was never connected to it--

However St. Mary's College, in partnership with Historic St. Mary's City, has long been involved with researching and studying the history of slavery there, at the ruins of the old plantation, and also researches the struggle for freedom that occurred there.

(As a part of studying all of area history, from all periods).

So this is what the school researches and studies (the ruins of the old plantation nearby and the struggles of the people then). But the school was never a part of that plantation.

Also the school (of that era) was a "witness" to some of these local events of the Civil War. In addition it is customary in Wikipedia articles to talk about the history of the school (and the area's background and setting). Many of the Civil War events occurred right next to the campus.

Plus the school has always talked about Margaret Brent and Leonard Calvert as being part of it's "background history"--

But back to the school--

I'm not making any excuses for the terrible history of that era, those things really can not be excused, in any way. But for what it's worth, the school was always separate.

I've added passages to the article to make that even more clear.

However two of it's founders and many board members in the 1800s were slave owners.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 00:55, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And Dr. Brome, the plantation owner that Alexander Gough and William Gross escaped from was on the Board of Trustees of the Female Seminary. He is described as having "revitalized" the seminary in 1858 after a financial crisis. His plantain is also described as "surrounding" the seminary the time, which was originally only 3 to 6 acres. 107.218.9.122 (talk) 12:44, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The school has always traditionally talked about Margaret Brent and the Calverts as the "ground-breaking heroes" of St. Mary's City: Alexander Gough and William Gross qualify as well

Really Gough and Gross were heroic figures, Margaret Brent was not the only heroic or groundbreaking figure in St. Mary's City.

And the college has always traditionally included Brent and the Calverts in it's background history. Why not Alexander Gough and William Gross as well? Escaping from slavery (at great personal risk) and serving the country in the effort to expand freedom certainly should qualify.

The information about Gough and Gross came to light relatively recently, but they certainly rate as St. Mary's City ground-breakers, as Brent does.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 08:42, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The special research and memorial mission of St. Mary's College in relation to local area history

The local history of the area (through all it's ages) is a major part of the school's 1) research mission 2) joint museum work with HSMC and 3) mission as a "living memorial" to the local area (as well as to the birth of religious freedom there).

St. Mary's College and HSMC are engaged in:

Archeological research on the former plantation (to better understand the conditions that people lived under).
Historical research (of old documents, letters, diaries and books).
Producing articles and museum exhibits (so that people in modern times may better understand this history).

This is a part of the same thing that the college and HSMC do with all other historical periods in the area--

(Pre-colonial/Native American village times; early Colonial times; later colonial times, the 1800s and the 20th century).

And always with an eye to studying the struggles/efforts to expand democracy in these various historic periods.

The school also has an institute, the Center for the Study of Democracy, that also researches and studies this local history, in order to better understand how democracy must include minority rights, how best to achieve this, what can be learned from history, etc...

The center adds the mission of "taking inspiration [and lessons] from history," applying these to study of democracy in modern times.

I just thought I would add this.

Best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 23:43, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Shortened John Pendleton Kennedy section

In a college article, history sections should be "snapshots" rather than extended writing. So I shortened the section on Kennedy's efforts in the Maryland emancipation campaign and instead added a link that goes to the section of the John Pendleton Kennedy about his part in leading the state effort to end slavery.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 01:25, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Added sections on college "Steamboat era" and also "History of dance at St. Mary's"

These might be expanded a little more later. Also added photo of an 1850s student, which helps add a face to the early school during it's founding times.

Increasing the gallery too (collection of photos below "Steamboat era"). Maybe a few more photos coming.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 01:25, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Denzel Washington Jr.

Added section on Denzel Washington Jr. and the story of how his (professional/paid) acting career started in St. Mary's City (with the exception of one prior, two-minute and uncredited role). Ties into the beginning of the school's longstanding participation with HSMC in the use of period living history actors (very often student actors) to interpret the history of St. Mary's City. Plus a photo with caption with details.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 01:38, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Length of History section

I've been thinking for some time that the history section has really gotten too long for this article. The thing is, St. Mary's College of Maryland really has an amazing history and it's hard to leave out the various parts of it. The history of the school (and it's historic setting and surroundings) are so compelling that it's hard to leave out a lot of these key milestones.

But I'm thinking what really needs to happen is that there should be a separate article on the "History of St. Mary's College".

There is a section of the St. Mary's City, Maryland article also entitled "History of St. Mary's College", but the same problem exists over there. The combined size in that article of the sections on colonial St. Mary's City, followed by the history of the college, really gets to be too much over there too.

So I'm thinking a separate article for the college history is the way to go.

Yale actually has 12 separate pages Residential colleges of Yale University, just for that aspect.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 23:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It takes a lot of gall for you to massively expand this article and then complain that it's gotten too long. In any case, it is way too long and desperately needs to be trimmed back to a reasonable size. ElKevbo (talk) 13:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not complaining at all. I really like the history section. I actually said that the history of the college was compelling and interesting, that's not a complaint at all.

But it has grown and evolved into something else.

By the way-- many College and University Wikipedia articles have quite long history sections.

In addition, the area history is a big part of the St. Mary's College of Maryland identity (and always has been).

The college has a state-mandated mission (since 19840) to research and memorialize the history of the immediate area.

The school is designated by the state of Maryland as a "Living Monument" to it's own history.

The school is now a preeminent archeological and historical research institution.

The school itself has researched much of the history discussed in the history section, so it simultaneously is showing what the school has discovered, or has deepened knowledge of.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 17:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To quote what you just posted to me-- you said "It takes a lot of gall for you to massively expand this article".

I'd like to point out that this is what the article looked like before I began to expand it--

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=St._Mary%27s_College_of_Maryland&oldid=593234161

If you like, just take a look at other College and University pages.

In fact, the St. Mary's College of Maryland Wikipedia article was one of only a small handful of College or University Wikipedia articles that were similarly underdeveloped.

Chances are, it wasn't made a priority, and people were instead given a full plate of other things to do that were considered a greater priority.

No one that could have set that as a higher priority ever deemed it to be so. No one at a higher decision making level ever considered Wikipedia.

So people had to squeeze in any contributions outside of their other commitments, in order to facilitate the development of the article. All of this points to the college leadership not paying enough attention to the Internet, not tasking someone to give the wider Internet a primary focus.

That has to come from the top leadership because people lower down in an elite institution tend to be very busy. Room has to be created to allow time to get the job done, and let me tell you, it was very time consuming. I am unemployed, otherwise I never could have done it.

Plus the college is in an isolated area, and has been known/has even called itself a "best kept secret" (not as well known in the state of Maryland [in comparison to] other state schools). So Wikipedia editors would be less likely to even find it, in order to work on it.

A school valedictorian is mentioned in a recent article about St. Mary's questioning if the "best kept secret" phrase was really a good idea. "Do we really want the school to be a secret?" he said.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 17:21, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, can a school contribute to a Wikipedia article about itself? The answer is yes (a qualified yes).

There are a number of ways that an institution of higher learning can ensure that the job of getting a complete Wikipedia article is achieved. But it takes learning about Wikipedia in order to get the job done.

Mention of Slavery on other College and University Wikipedia pages

There are quite a few now, these are just some examples--

The Yale residential colleges (linked in the last sentence) also discusses how 8 of the 12 schools were started by slave owners or slave traders.

Here is the section on slavery and Yale.

A lot of institutions are trying to come to term with their pasts at the time. In fact there are a number that had a direct relationship to slavery, rather than just certain events happening in the vicinity of St. Mary's College. There is this significant feeling out there that it should be talked about.

The Johns Hopkins University Wikipedia article has two mentions of abolitionism, but then also has a section mentioning the dates when African Americans first were allowed to enterd the college.

It also talks about Johns Hopkins prior "separate but equal" policy towards it's Black students.

The University of Tennessee Wikipedia page also talks about the struggle for Civil Rights at the college and has the dates for when Black students were finally admitted.

Many university Wikipedia websites discuss what year they first became racially integrated (these are too numerous to list).

The Bowdoin College Wikipedia page discusses the 19th Century novel Uncle Toms Cabin, written by Harriet Beacher Stowe, the wife of a professor at the school.

The Oberlin University Wikipedia page mentions a fugitive slave who came to the college.

The Wikipedia article for Jonathan Edwards College also points out that the school still has a statue of a slave holding a sundial, which is in a public area on it's campus (I think that's different than just telling a story about a historical slavery-related event or circumstance, and I feel that statue should be either displayed with an educational plaque, depicting it as an example of racism at the time, or otherwise be removed).

There are many more, but the above are just some examples.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 10:56, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Deciding to include Slavery History in St. Mary's College of Maryland article

When I was looking at what to add to the history section of this article, I had an additional concern and that was-- would it be wrong for me to leave it out?

I worried about being unfair and putting in a history that did not include the African American experience in the area. Would it be wrong to only discuss the White history of the 1600s through the 1800s while leaving out the African American history?

I decided that it would not be right to leave out the African American part of local history while only discussing the White history of the area.

Nevertheless it was not an easy topic, at all.

So I tried, in that context, to find the inspirational stories within the larger sad story of local slavery.

In terms of inspiration, I talked about the the men who joined the Union Army and served, As well as the other men from nearby (especially because they both served together). I felt that was an inspirational angle to take on the subject, which was preferable to just sweeping it under the rug. The same for John Pendleton Kennedy. I never felt that he was ever perfect on race issues. But I felt that it would be wrong to leave his story out.

Also many of the people from the 1800s that did positive things about opposing slavery where nevertheless, not up to 21st Century standards on the issue. Lincoln wasn't, and others weren't either. Looking father back into history, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson come to mind. There is not school that has an association with Washington or Jefferson that does not mention them i8n their official websites. Further they are mentioned in all Wikipedia articles.

So I tried to make discussion of this part of history inspirational where possible in spite of the tragic reality of the institution. I did in one paragraph (the section "Entrenchment") really delve into some of the more sad aspects as well, because I also felt it would not be fair to leave that out. Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 01:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My own racial identity-- I don't want to get into that too much, but just to mention it, I have a multiracial background. I come from more than one race, so I feel this issue, as well as think about this issue.

Best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 04:20, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Civil War references on College and University Wikipedia web pages

Many University and College Wikipedia articles have these--

The most common are mentions of the Civil War history of the institution, with many links on those articles to the Wikipedia article about the American Civil War.

There are also many such articles, especially in Southern or border state University colleges, with links to specific battles, etc.

There are many mentions of military Generals, with links to their Wikipedia articles depicting many aspects of their military careers and also in military poses.

There are a number of College and University articles (from Southern and border state regions) that discuss Army occupations of campus grounds during the Civil War, and even battles that occurred there.

Many College and University articles have ROTC links to that or other military related pages.

Just to say, these kinds of images and links are common on Wikipedia articles about institutions of higher learning.

I think it would be really sad if all such history was deemed inappropriate for any College or University related website. I think it would be especially sad if, in the process, we stopped honoring our Veterans on these pages as well as remembering our history.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 16:33, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Civil Rights sections or mentions on College and University Wikipedia articles

Again, these are legion on such articles.

It's very common for College and University Wikipedia articles to mention the institution's past practices of racial segregation.

Its common also to find passages or sections on racial disparities at the institution.

There are many College and University Wikipedia articles that mark the dates when Blacks were first allowed into their institutions and chronicling the time of segregation at the school.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 16:45, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is a discussion of a school's past a comment on it's present?

Not at all. How is what a school did, or what happened next to school grounds over 145 years ago a reflection on what that school is today?

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 18:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

History section length

Just getting back to that-- I do feel that it's gotten too long, however.

St. Mary's has a lot of very significant history, and as a "Living memorial" to it's own area history and as a preeminent historical and archeological research institution, that actually derives significantly from the past in order to inform it's modern day mission, it's easy for any such section to grow.

But still, I feel that it has outgrown this article.

Best to all.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 19:08, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

History of St. Mary's College of Maryland

Length of History section

I've been thinking for some time that the history section has really gotten too long for this article. The thing is, St. Mary's College of Maryland really has an amazing history and it's hard to leave out the various parts of it. The history of the school (and it's historic setting and surroundings) are so compelling that it's hard to leave out a lot of these key milestones.

But I'm thinking what really needs to happen is that there should be a separate article on the "History of St. Mary's College".

There is a section of the St. Mary's City, Maryland article also entitled "History of St. Mary's College", but the same problem exists over there. The combined size in that article of the sections on colonial St. Mary's City, followed by the history of the college, really gets to be too much over there too.

So I'm thinking a separate article for the college history is the way to go.

Yale actually has 12 separate pages Residential colleges of Yale University, just for that aspect.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 23:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It takes a lot of gall for you to massively expand this article and then complain that it's gotten too long. In any case, it is way too long and desperately needs to be trimmed back to a reasonable size. ElKevbo (talk) 13:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not complaining at all. I really like the history section. I actually said that the history of the college was compelling and interesting, that's not a complaint at all.

But it has grown and evolved into something else.

By the way-- many College and University Wikipedia articles have quite long history sections.

In addition, the area history is a big part of the St. Mary's College of Maryland identity (and always has been).

The college has a state-mandated mission (since 19840) to research and memorialize the history of the immediate area.

The school is designated by the state of Maryland as a "Living Monument" to it's own history.

The school is now a preeminent archeological and historical research institution.

The school itself has researched much of the history discussed in the history section, so it simultaneously is showing what the school has discovered, or has deepened knowledge of.