Talk:History of St. Mary's College of Maryland

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Can a school contribute/have input to a Wikipedia article about itself?[edit]

The answer is yes (a qualified yes). This includes additions, deletions, and other aspects as well. (With caveats that should be learned about).

There are a number of ways that an institution of higher learning can ensure that the job of getting a complete Wikipedia article is achieved. But it takes learning a little about Wikipedia in order to get the job done.

Or can just input into the editorial process, the school is allowed to ask (Wikipedia requires that it be constructively)--

for specific changes (even beyond factual correction, even including asking for editorial adjustments).

There are also limits, but the school can have a lot of input, through a variety of channels.

I encourage tasking someone to learn more about it.

This does not require advanced professional training--

Wikipedia is edited by volunteers. The school probably already has Wikipedia volunteers in it's community. Just ask around.

  • There are also special pages on Wikipedia were you can ask for volunteers to help out. Just do a little research.

Also various classes of college faculty and staff are considered eligible by Wikipedia and may edit an article for an institution (if the college allots them sufficient time to prioritize it), (it can be extremely time consuming--

Especially when creating or developing an entire article, this can take a commitment of many hours for a college sized article and following Wikipedia guidelines, of course which are easy to learn).

Although time consuming for an article of this size, Wikipedia editing is not hard to learn, it is designed to let someone start editing almost right away.

Anyway, I'm going to be moving on soon, to other projects, but these options might help the school learn how it can input into this article.

Best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 00:28, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just created this new article[edit]

There are three or four citation errors that happened when copying the article over. It's almost certain that the root citations are still over on the St. Mary's College of Maryland website, somewhere in that original article.

I am wrapping up my involvement with these articles, so if anyone else wants to fix that, thanks in advance.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 19:54, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

St. Mary's College (and the old Seminary) were never a part of the plantation[edit]

The article has never stated otherwise, however I have added some more passages to the article.

(If needed) in order just to make it clear, the plantation was next door to the school (which was always a state school) and was never connected to it--

However St. Mary's College, in partnership with Historic St. Mary's City, has long been involved with researching and studying the history of slavery there, at the ruins of the old plantation, and also researches the struggle for freedom that occurred there.

(As a part of studying all of area history, from all periods).

So this is what the school researches and studies (the ruins of the old plantation nearby and the struggles of the people then). But the school was never a part of that plantation.

Also the school (of that era) was a "witness" to some of these local events of the Civil War. In addition it is customary in Wikipedia articles to talk about the history of the school (and the area's background and setting). Many of the Civil War events occurred right next to the campus.

Plus the school has always talked about Margaret Brent and Leonard Calvert as being part of it's "background history"--

But back to the school--

I'm not making any excuses for the terrible history of that era, those things really can not be excused, in any way. But for what it's worth, the school was always separate.

I've added passages to the article to make that even more clear.

However two of it's founders and many board members in the 1800s were slave owners.
Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 00:55, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And Dr. Brome, the plantation owner that Alexander Gough and William Gross escaped from was on the Board of Trustees of the Female Seminary. He is described as having "revitalized" the seminary in 1858 after a financial crisis. His plantation is also described as "surrounding" the seminary the time, which was originally only 3 to 6 acres.
Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 12:51, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The school has always traditionally talked about Margaret Brent and the Calverts as the "ground-breaking heroes" of St. Mary's City: Alexander Gough and William Gross qualify as well[edit]

Really Gough and Gross were heroic figures, Margaret Brent was not the only heroic or groundbreaking figure in St. Mary's City.

And the college has always traditionally included Brent and the Calverts in it's background history. Why not Alexander Gough and William Gross as well? Escaping from slavery (at great personal risk) and serving the country in the effort to expand freedom certainly should qualify.

The information about Gough and Gross came to light relatively recently, but they certainly rate as St. Mary's City ground-breakers, as Brent does.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 08:42, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The special research and memorial mission of St. Mary's College in relation to local area history[edit]

The local history of the area (through all it's ages) is a major part of the school's 1) research mission 2) joint museum work with HSMC and 3) mission as a "living memorial" to the local area (as well as to the birth of religious freedom there).

St. Mary's College and HSMC are engaged in:

  • Archeological research on the former plantation (to better understand the conditions that people lived under).
  • Historical research (of old documents, letters, diaries and books).
  • Producing articles and museum exhibits (so that people in modern times may better understand this history).

This is a part of the same thing that the college and HSMC do with all other historical periods in the area--

(Pre-colonial/Native American village times; early Colonial times; later colonial times, the 1800s and the 20th century).

  • And always with an eye to studying the struggles/efforts to expand democracy in these various historic periods.

The school also has an institute, the Center for the Study of Democracy, that also researches and studies this local history, in order to better understand how democracy must include minority rights, how best to achieve this, what can be learned from history, etc...

The center adds the mission of "taking inspiration [and lessons] from history," applying these to study of democracy in modern times.

I just thought I would add this.

Best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 23:43, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Shortened John Pendleton Kennedy section[edit]

In a college article, history sections should be "snapshots" rather than extended writing. So I shortened the section on Kennedy's efforts in the Maryland emancipation campaign and instead added a link that goes to the section of the John Pendleton Kennedy about his part in leading the state effort to end slavery.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 01:25, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Added sections on college "Steamboat era" and also "History of dance at St. Mary's"[edit]

These might be expanded a little more later. Also added photo of an 1850s student, which helps add a face to the early school during it's founding times.

Increasing the gallery too (collection of photos below "Steamboat era"). Maybe a few more photos coming.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 01:25, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Denzel Washington Jr.[edit]

Added section on Denzel Washington Jr. and the story of how his (professional/paid) acting career started in St. Mary's City (with the exception of one prior, two-minute and uncredited role). Ties into the beginning of the school's longstanding participation with HSMC in the use of period living history actors (very often student actors) to interpret the history of St. Mary's City. Plus a photo with caption with details.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 01:38, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Length of History section[edit]

I've been thinking for some time that the history section has really gotten too long for this article. The thing is, St. Mary's College of Maryland really has an amazing history and it's hard to leave out the various parts of it. The history of the school (and it's historic setting and surroundings) are so compelling that it's hard to leave out a lot of these key milestones.

But I'm thinking what really needs to happen is that there should be a separate article on the "History of St. Mary's College".

There is a section of the St. Mary's City, Maryland article also entitled "History of St. Mary's College", but the same problem exists over there. The combined size in that article of the sections on colonial St. Mary's City, followed by the history of the college, really gets to be too much over there too.

So I'm thinking a separate article for the college history is the way to go.

Yale actually has 12 separate pages Residential colleges of Yale University, just for that aspect.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 23:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It takes a lot of gall for you to massively expand this article and then complain that it's gotten too long. In any case, it is way too long and desperately needs to be trimmed back to a reasonable size. ElKevbo (talk) 13:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not complaining at all. I really like the history section. I actually said that the history of the college was compelling and interesting, that's not a complaint at all.
But it has grown and evolved into something else.
By the way-- many College and University Wikipedia articles have quite long history sections.
In addition, the area history is a big part of the St. Mary's College of Maryland identity (and always has been).
  • The college has a state-mandated mission (since 19840) to research and memorialize the history of the immediate area.
  • The school is designated by the state of Maryland as a "Living Monument" to it's own history.
  • The school is now a preeminent archeological and historical research institution.
  • The school itself has researched much of the history discussed in the history section, so it simultaneously is showing what the school has discovered, or has deepened knowledge of.
Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 17:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
To quote what you just posted to me-- you said "It takes a lot of gall for you to massively expand this article".
I'd like to point out that this is what the article looked like before I began to expand it--
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=St._Mary%27s_College_of_Maryland&oldid=593234161
If you like, just take a look at other College and University pages.
In fact, the St. Mary's College of Maryland Wikipedia article was one of only a small handful of College or University Wikipedia articles that were similarly underdeveloped.
Chances are, it wasn't made a priority, and people were instead given a full plate of other things to do that were considered a greater priority.
No one that could have set that as a higher priority ever deemed it to be so. No one at a higher decision making level ever considered Wikipedia.
So people had to squeeze in any contributions outside of their other commitments, in order to facilitate the development of the article. All of this points to the college leadership not paying enough attention to the Internet, not tasking someone to give the wider Internet a primary focus.
That has to come from the top leadership because people lower down in an elite institution tend to be very busy. Room has to be created to allow time to get the job done, and let me tell you, it was very time consuming. I am unemployed, otherwise I never could have done it.
Plus the college is in an isolated area, and has been known/has even called itself a "best kept secret" (not as well known in the state of Maryland [in comparison to] other state schools). So Wikipedia editors would be less likely to even find it, in order to work on it.
A school valedictorian is mentioned in a recent article about St. Mary's questioning if the "best kept secret" phrase was really a good idea. "Do we really want the school to be a secret?" he said.
Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 17:21, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, can a school contribute to a Wikipedia article about itself? The answer is yes (a qualified yes).
There are a number of ways that an institution of higher learning can ensure that the job of getting a complete Wikipedia article is achieved. But it takes learning about Wikipedia in order to get the job done.

Mention of Slavery on other College and University Wikipedia pages[edit]

There are quite a few now, these are just some examples--

  • The Yale residential colleges (linked in the last sentence) also discusses how 8 of the 12 schools were started by slave owners or slave traders.
  • A lot of institutions are trying to come to term with their pasts at the time. In fact there are a number that had a direct relationship to slavery, rather than just certain events happening in the vicinity of St. Mary's College. There is this significant feeling out there that it should be talked about.
  • The Johns Hopkins University Wikipedia article has two mentions of abolitionism, but then also has a section mentioning the dates when African Americans first were allowed to enterd the college.
  • It also talks about Johns Hopkins prior "separate but equal" policy towards it's Black students.
  • The University of Tennessee Wikipedia page also talks about the struggle for Civil Rights at the college and has the dates for when Black students were finally admitted.
  • Many university Wikipedia websites discuss what year they first became racially integrated (these are too numerous to list).
  • The Wikipedia article for Jonathan Edwards College also points out that the school still has a statue of a slave holding a sundial, which is in a public area on it's campus (I think that's different than just telling a story about a historical slavery-related event or circumstance, and I feel that statue should be either displayed with an educational plaque, depicting it as an example of racism at the time, or otherwise be removed).

There are many more, but the above are just some examples.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 10:56, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Deciding to include Slavery History in St. Mary's College of Maryland article[edit]

When I was looking at what to add to the history section of this article, I had an additional concern and that was-- would it be wrong for me to leave it out?

I worried about being unfair and putting in a history that did not include the African American experience in the area. Would it be wrong to only discuss the White history of the 1600s through the 1800s while leaving out the African American history?

I decided that it would not be right to leave out the African American part of local history while only discussing the White history of the area.

Nevertheless it was not an easy topic, at all.

So I tried, in that context, to find the inspirational stories within the larger sad story of local slavery.

In terms of inspiration, I talked about the the men who joined the Union Army and served, As well as the other men from nearby (especially because they both served together). I felt that was an inspirational angle to take on the subject, which was preferable to just sweeping it under the rug. The same for John Pendleton Kennedy. I never felt that he was ever perfect on race issues. But I felt that it would be wrong to leave his story out.

Also many of the people from the 1800s that did positive things about opposing slavery where nevertheless, not up to 21st Century standards on the issue. Lincoln wasn't, and others weren't either. Looking father back into history, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson come to mind. There is not school that has an association with Washington or Jefferson that does not mention them i8n their official websites. Further they are mentioned in all Wikipedia articles.

So I tried to make discussion of this part of history inspirational where possible in spite of the tragic reality of the institution. I did in one paragraph (the section "Entrenchment") really delve into some of the more sad aspects as well, because I also felt it would not be fair to leave that out. Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 01:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My own racial identity-- I don't want to get into that too much, but just to mention it, I have a multiracial background. I come from more than one race, so I feel this issue, as well as think about this issue.
Best to all,
Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 04:20, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Civil War references on College and University Wikipedia web pages[edit]

Many University and College Wikipedia articles have these--

The most common are mentions of the Civil War history of the institution, with many links on those articles to the Wikipedia article about the American Civil War.

  • There are also many such articles, especially in Southern or border state University colleges, with links to specific battles, etc.
  • There are many mentions of military Generals, with links to their Wikipedia articles depicting many aspects of their military careers and also in military poses.
  • There are a number of College and University articles (from Southern and border state regions) that discuss Army occupations of campus grounds during the Civil War, and even battles that occurred there.
  • Many College and University articles have ROTC links to that or other military related pages.

Just to say, these kinds of images and links are common on Wikipedia articles about institutions of higher learning.

I think it would be really sad if all such history was deemed inappropriate for any College or University related website. I think it would be especially sad if, in the process, we stopped honoring our Veterans on these pages as well as remembering our history.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 16:33, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Civil Rights sections or mentions on College and University Wikipedia articles[edit]

Again, these are legion on such articles.

  • It's very common for College and University Wikipedia articles to mention the institution's past practices of racial segregation.
  • Its common also to find passages or sections on racial disparities at the institution.
  • There are many College and University Wikipedia articles that mark the dates when Blacks were first allowed into their institutions and chronicling the time of segregation at the school.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 16:45, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is a discussion of a school's past a comment on it's present?[edit]

Not at all. How is what a school did, or what happened next to school grounds over 145 years ago a reflection on what that school is today?

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 18:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

History section length[edit]

Just getting back to that-- I do feel that it's gotten too long, however.

St. Mary's has a lot of very significant history, and as a "Living memorial" to it's own area history and as a preeminent historical and archeological research institution, that actually derives significantly from the past in order to inform it's modern day mission, it's easy for any such section to grow.

But still, I feel that it has outgrown this article.

Best to all.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 19:08, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

History of St. Mary's College of Maryland

Length of History section[edit]

I've been thinking for some time that the history section has really gotten too long for this article. The thing is, St. Mary's College of Maryland really has an amazing history and it's hard to leave out the various parts of it. The history of the school (and it's historic setting and surroundings) are so compelling that it's hard to leave out a lot of these key milestones.

But I'm thinking what really needs to happen is that there should be a separate article on the "History of St. Mary's College".

There is a section of the St. Mary's City, Maryland article also entitled "History of St. Mary's College", but the same problem exists over there. The combined size in that article of the sections on colonial St. Mary's City, followed by the history of the college, really gets to be too much over there too.

So I'm thinking a separate article for the college history is the way to go.

Yale actually has 12 separate pages Residential colleges of Yale University, just for that aspect.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 23:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It takes a lot of gall for you to massively expand this article and then complain that it's gotten too long. In any case, it is way too long and desperately needs to be trimmed back to a reasonable size. ElKevbo (talk) 13:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not complaining at all. I really like the history section. I actually said that the history of the college was compelling and interesting, that's not a complaint at all.
But it has grown and evolved into something else.
By the way-- many College and University Wikipedia articles have quite long history sections.
In addition, the area history is a big part of the St. Mary's College of Maryland identity (and always has been).
  • The college has a state-mandated mission (since 19840) to research and memorialize the history of the immediate area.
  • The school is designated by the state of Maryland as a "Living Monument" to it's own history.
  • The school is now a preeminent archeological and historical research institution.
  • The school itself has researched much of the history discussed in the history section, so it simultaneously is showing what the school has discovered, or has deepened knowledge of.
Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 17:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
To quote what you just posted to me-- you said "It takes a lot of gall for you to massively expand this article".
I'd like to point out that this is what the article looked like before I began to expand it--
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=St._Mary%27s_College_of_Maryland&oldid=593234161
If you like, just take a look at other College and University pages.
In fact, the St. Mary's College of Maryland Wikipedia article was one of only a small handful of College or University Wikipedia articles that were similarly underdeveloped.
Chances are, it wasn't made a priority, and people were instead given a full plate of other things to do that were considered a greater priority.
No one that could have set that as a higher priority ever deemed it to be so. No one at a higher decision making level ever considered Wikipedia.
So people had to squeeze in any contributions outside of their other commitments, in order to facilitate the development of the article. All of this points to the college leadership not paying enough attention to the Internet, not tasking someone to give the wider Internet a primary focus.
That has to come from the top leadership because people lower down in an elite institution tend to be very busy. Room has to be created to allow time to get the job done, and let me tell you, it was very time consuming. I am unemployed, otherwise I never could have done it.
Plus the college is in an isolated area, and has been known/has even called itself a "best kept secret" (not as well known in the state of Maryland [in comparison to] other state schools). So Wikipedia editors would be less likely to even find it, in order to work on it.
A school valedictorian is mentioned in a recent article about St. Mary's questioning if the "best kept secret" phrase was really a good idea. "Do we really want the school to be a secret?" he said.
Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 17:21, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, can a school contribute to a Wikipedia article about itself? The answer is yes (a qualified yes).
There are a number of ways that an institution of higher learning can ensure that the job of getting a complete Wikipedia article is achieved. But it takes learning about Wikipedia in order to get the job done.

Orphaned references in History of St. Mary's College of Maryland[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of History of St. Mary's College of Maryland's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "stmaryscity.org":

Reference named "msa.maryland.gov":

Reference named "colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 20:00, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Length of sub-headers in history section[edit]

While retaining essential and critical historic facts, headers have been shortened from the originals. 128.54.57.219 (talk) 08:07, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]


. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.54.57.219 (talk) 08:08, 8 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Mathias Da Sousa[edit]

Some sources say he was the first person of African heritage to serve and vote in a legislative body in America (which occurred in the colonial Maryland Assembly in St. Mary's City in the 1640's). Other sources say that it is not yet confirmed that he was of African heritage. Still looking into this. Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 17:48, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pix size[edit]

While it looks like you've gotten many good photos for the article - and I applaud that - and while I generally think that the size of photos on Wikipedia should be larger - it'd obvious that the use of photos here goes against our rules and is very much out of line with our practice. Please read Wikipedia:MoS/Images#Size and Wikipedia:IMGSIZE#Displayed_image_size

I'll find 2-4 examples of photo use for articles on higher education that you might emulate.

where all of them should IMHO have larger pix.

But St Mary's is about a 2 of 10, simply because the photos are too large and in the wrong place. You could easily beat all of the above!

Quick and dirty reading of the rules:

  • Don't display using larger than 500px or upright=1.35
  • normal size is 220px or upright=1
  • Occasional, exceptions apply

There are now several photos displayed at 700px, and almost all photos are much larger than 220px.

My suggestions:

  • Use the upright parameter (relative sizing, based on user preferences) from between upright=1.4 (at the top) to upright=1.0 at the bottom, with minor adjustments for individual pix.
  • Post most, but not all, pix on the right
  • Don't have text sandwiched between photos on the left and right, i.e. don't have pix posted on both sides.
  • Cut down on the length of the captions - long text should just go in the text.
  • Consider using the gallery or packed gallery features.

Smallbones(smalltalk) 17:02, 13 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lot's of good feedback here. Thanks for taking the time to lay out your points! I'm going to look over your points in detail over the next few days.
There are more allowable exceptions to MOS / images than you mentioned here, but you may be right about 700px. Give me a few days and I'll go over it all point by point (I'm a little tied up right now).
Appreciatively,
Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 23:24, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hi,
Just a note here. All of the photos in the article are within Wikipedia standards. See MOS / Images / exceptions. Keep in mind that there are a variety of exceptions to standard Wikipedia photo formatting rules and all of them are met here. Each of the included photos adhere to at least one of these exceptions.
On the issue of alternating left and right formatted photo's (relative to the article text), Wikipedia actually does allow this and even encourages it.
Thanks, Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 02:18, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

John Pendleton Kennedy[edit]

Note: Boldface below is just used to highlight key points. :-)[edit]

New information on J. P. Kennedy and his views on slavery have been emerging. This section (below) will touch on some of this. First, as context, the heaviest historical focus on Kennedy has traditionally been on his younger days as an author (especially the 1830s and 1840s).

But now, 1) J.P. Kennedy in the 1860s is being looked at more closely. And 2) new information about Kennedy in his younger days has also come to light.

Kennedy, in his own words, writing in 1865 about the end of slavery[edit]

Here is what Kennedy wrote about the end of slavery--

[T]he Emancipation of four millions of Slaves and the Extirpation of African slavery forever. The Curse of Ages has been lifted from two continents...

John Pendleton Kennedy, Baltimore, 1865

(The above is also an example of when Kennedy wrote clearly. Generally, his essays were much more understandable than some of his literary writings...)

Kennedy also saw the potential for worldwide elimination of slavery coming from emancipation in America--

The quote continues:

Slavery has disappeared everywhere within our borders and begins today to perish in Africa, to wither in Brazil and all South America. The war has struck the blow that makes it henceforth incapable of life beyond the present century, in any part of the world. John Pendleton Kennedy

So wherever Kennedy was in 1832, this^^ is where he was in 1865.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 08:57, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Newly discovered unpublished manuscripts from the 1830's (revealing Kennedy's closeted views on slavery when he was younger)[edit]

New information has (recently) come to light about John Pendleton Kennedy.

In part, there are previously unpublished sections of his manuscript for "Swallow Barn" (Published in 1832) that show him describing slavery in a significantly more negative light than in the finally published version of his book.

Although still being discussed, it is now thought by some that he was more strongly opposed to slavery (in the 1830's) than was previously thought, but may have been afraid to express the full extent of his feelings publicly, because he was living in a slave state (Maryland) where expressing anti-slavery feelings was more personally risky than in the Northern states.

Kennedy ended up holding back (from the publisher) that part of his manuscript that was more strongly critical of slavery, leading to the more watered-down book that became well known at the time.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 05:13, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dangerous climate in pre-Civil War Maryland for abolitionists[edit]

Maryland, a slave state, was arguably a more dangerous place in which to oppose slavery than the Northern states. Prior to the Civil War, there were cases of abolitionists in Maryland being beaten or imprisoned (in one notable case, a Maryland abolitionist died in prison). As late as 1857, a free Black minister on Maryland's Eastern Shore was imprisoned for merely having possession of a copy of "Uncle Toms Cabin" on his person. So the climate in Maryland for people opposed to slavery was not a safe one.

This doesn't mean that anti-slavery sentiment was completely underground in Maryland, anti-slavery opinions were expressed there nevertheless, but when anti-slavery Marylanders did voice or pen criticism of and/or opposition to slavery, they usually did so more carefully, and less stridently, than in the North.

Possibly for this reason, John Pendleton Kennedy assiduously avoided describing himself as an "abolitionist", even on those occasions when he was speaking or writing against slavery. And Kennedy was known for criticizing self-described "abolitionists" when their language appeared to be inciting violent or radical measures. Nevertheless Kennedy did speak publicly, and in his writings, against slavery for decades, although generally in a more muted and cautious way than a Northern abolitionist would.

How did Kennedy feel as the Maryland author of a (no matter how understated) anti-slavery book when someone else in Maryland was imprisoned in 1857 for merely possessing an anti-slavery book?

Kennedy, himself already the author of a book which comes to the conclusion that slavery is wrong --Swallow Barn-- could easily have wondered if he himself might be in for some trouble after the 1857 imprisonment in Maryland of a man for merely having possession of another anti-slavery book, Uncle Tom's Cabin--

Giving Kennedy some security, on the other hand may certainly have been the fact, that he was by contrast, a well-known privileged white retired Maryland politician and the former U.S. secretary of the Navy.

Although imprisonment was certainly not the only repercussion that Kennedy might have been concerned about facing. Kennedy's feelings about any personal jeopardy that he may have been concerned about facing in 1857 are not known at this time.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 17:30, 11 July 2014 (UTC) Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 05:10, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Kennedy was ostracized by pro-confederate friends and family during the civil war[edit]

When the Civil War started, Kennedy was shunned by many former friends in Baltimore. They refused to speak to him because of his public support for the Union cause and public condemnation of the Confederate cause. Nevertheless, Kennedy remained firm in these positions. This was even more painful for Kennedy because on his mother's side, Kennedy had many close relatives in Virginia, most of whom supported the Confederacy and a number of whom were actually fighting against the Union in the war. Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 18:58, 2 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Swallow Barn as (somewhat poorly written-- or overly subtle) anti-slavery satire[edit]

Swallow Barn is a novel that was written by John Pendleton Kennedy and (published in 1832, 29 years before the Civil War). Historians widely acknowledge that the novel reaches the clear and unmistakable conclusion that slavery is wrong and will bring ruin to the South.

The novel has also nevertheless been criticized for perpetuating some idyllic stereotypes about plantation life.

However, now Swallow Barn is being viewed differently by some major historians-- For example-- one award-winning historian now sees "Swallow Barn" (even in it's final, published form), as a subtle satire on the classic "Northern visitor converted to approving of slavery" novel-theme (popular among pro-slavery Southern authors of the time). This new "read" on Swallow Barn holds that, even in it's watered-down, finally published version, Swallow Barn is really systematically and very purposely striving to undermine this pro-slavery literary trope by use of subtle satire (in essence satirizing some of the characters, including possibly the protagonist).

(The sometimes poor quality of Kennedy's literary writing is another matter, and may have contributed to misunderstandings about his literary intentions at times--

There is also wide consensus that Kennedy's effectiveness as a literary writer was erratic, with some widely popular, well-written and easier to follow works-- and other works that were far more difficult to follow). So Swallow Barn may also be a satire that suffered from it's own poor quality of writing.

Kennedy did later write another definite work of satire, so this approach to writing was not outside of his interest, however varied his actual success in the effort.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 05:12, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Kennedy's further evolution on the issue of slavery-- after attending a speech given by Frederick Douglass[edit]

New information has also come to light here--

There is also now additional new research on the further evolution Kennedy's anti slavery views in the 1860's (as opposed to his views in the 1830's).

(And this research is also based on solid references to his actual writings in the 1860's).

For example, Kennedy writes about how, in the later stages of the Civil War, he attended a public lecture delivered by Frederick Douglass. This appears to have also increased the strength of Kennedy's opposition to slavery.

Anyway, irrespective of where Kennedy was on the issue in the 1830's, by the later part of the Civil War, he worked actively and strongly to end slavery in Maryland and also by that time, he described slavery (verbatim, in his writings) as "a curse".

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 19:51, 6 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keeping to what is well-known and easily cited (for this article, rather than the one about Kennedy)[edit]

The above points, although interesting don't really fit easily into the more narrow snapshots in this article (although can be included in a larger article, like the one on John Pendleton Kennedy.

This article (St. Mary's College) must necessarily stick to the clear-cut (and strongly cite-able) facts.

Essentially--

What is clear and indisputable is that by 1863-64, Kennedy played key leadership roles in ending slavery in Maryland.

And it is very clear (and easy to cite and reference) that his anti-slavery views had become much stronger by 1863.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 19:51, 6 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Escaped slaves and Black tenant farmers-turned soldiers are what make Kennedy relevant to St. Mary's again in 1863-64[edit]

The "When Did Timeline"--

The St. Mary's College "When-did-timeline" was published well before the new story was unearthed and revealed (due HSMC and SMCM research) about how Alexander Gough and William Gross escaped slavery in St. Mary's City, joined the Union Army and fought in the same small unit with local African American tenant farmers turned-medal of honor winners James H. Harris and William H. Barnes. These stories are so notable, by Wikipedia standards, that they pull Kennedy's activities related to slavery in the 1860's back into the article (especially in combination with the recent new information and focus on John P. Kennedy). They anchor and weave him back into the topic at this later stage, where this would have seemed less immediately related before.

(Older College related sources on Kennedy are very naturally focused on the 1830's-1840's and are about the seeds of the school, it's founding and also about the process that led to the re-conceptualization of St. Mary's City).

But the slave/soldier stories (along with recent new information and focus on Kennedy) bring emphasis to the following--

Kennedy, the man who redefined "historic" St Mary's City in 1838, and helped to plant the seeds for St. Mary's College of Maryland; would now help to redefine it profoundly yet again in 1863-64, in his efforts to end slavery in Maryland. Either in spite of his own fears of speaking his true feelings, or due to (an imperfect, yet nevertheless ultimately significant) evolution within himself. Or a combination of both.

As it was also profoundly redefined by men like Alexander Gough and William Gross, who broke the bonds of slavery in St. Mary's City, and then faced death in war in order to end it. And men like James H. Harris and William H. Barnes, free Black tenant farmers from the area, who fought so that others could have what they already had, and who each won the medal of honor in the process.

Wikipedia is a very limited venue

Wikipedia can not even come close to the historical analysis that these subjects deserve (and have been recently getting) and can only showcase notable "snapshots" of history.

Best to all,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 04:39, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Plenty of references to history of local slavery in St. Mary's College and Historic St. Mary's City sources[edit]

I forgot to mention that the "When Did Time line" does mention historical slavery in the SMC area and also has multiple references to the Civil Rights Movement--

I was writing the last part of the (previous) section very quickly the other day and just forgot to say that. I was just re-reading the section today and it occurred to me that I should have mentioned that.

Additionally, most if not all all of the St. Mary's College or Historic St. Mary's City researchers and archeologists have each covered the history or legacy of slavery and/or civil rights issues in the area. My only point (in the section above) was that J. P. Kennedy (in 1864-65) should be in this Wikipedia article. Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 00:02, 11 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Added medal awarded to men of the 38th United Colored Troops Regiment (in which men from St. Mary's City served)[edit]

This was the "Butler Medal", awarded to men of the regiment in which two men from St. Mary's City (who had escaped from slavery) and also local medal of honor winners Harris and Barnes had served in. This was a unit comprised of both men from St. Mary's County Maryland and also men who had been liberated from slavery in Virginia.

Also added passages about how the valiant effort of the 38th USCT was at the center of events related to the commissioning of the medal by General Benjamin Butler of the Union Army (Army of the James, under Union command).

Best,

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 23:51, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I also (a few weeks ago) created a new Wikipedia article, United States Colored Troops Memorial Statue which is an article about the memorial to the 700 African-American men from St. Mary's County who served in the Union Army during the American Civil War.
After creating that article, I linked to it from this article (at a relevant point).
Of special interest is the fact that the very regiment that the men from St. Mary's City served in (38th USCT) is specifically mentioned in an educational plaque at the memorial.
Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 00:26, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

St. Mary's College (and the old Seminary) were never a part of the plantation[edit]

The article has never stated otherwise, however I have added some more passages to the article.

(If needed) in order just to make it clear, the plantation was next door to the school (which was always a state school) and was never connected to it--

However St. Mary's College, in partnership with Historic St. Mary's City, has long been involved with researching and studying the history of slavery there, at the ruins of the old plantation, and also researches the struggle for freedom that occurred there.

(As a part of studying all of area history, from all periods).

So this is what the school researches and studies (the ruins of the old plantation nearby and the struggles of the people then). But the school was never a part of that plantation.

Also the school (of that era) was a "witness" to some of these local events of the Civil War. In addition it is customary in Wikipedia articles to talk about the history of the school (and the area's background and setting). Many of the Civil War events occurred right next to the campus.

Plus the school has always talked about Margaret Brent and Leonard Calvert as being part of it's "background history"--

But back to the school--

I'm not making any excuses for the terrible history of that era, those things really can not be excused, in any way. But for what it's worth, the school was always separate.

I've added passages to the article to make that even more clear.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 00:55, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

But two of the school's key founders where slave owners. See the online book, "Monument School of the People" about the history St. Mary's College.
Some Board members of that era too.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 20:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Including Dr. Brome, who owned the plantation that Alexander Gough and William Gross escaped from. He is also credited with helping to "revitalize" the school after a financial crisis as the Board's treasurer in 1858. And his plantation is described as "surrounding" the Female Seminary, which at the time only comprised 3 to 6 acres. Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 12:49, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

One last note on contributed photos[edit]

One more note for this archive, there were alumni who contributed by donating many of the photos seen in the the article from their old Flickr accounts.

(We worked together on those by email).

The rest of the photos were already listed as being in the "public domain" and therefore already available for re-use on the Internet.

There was other editing on the site as well, going back through February and I don't know who those editors were.

Again, best to all.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 16:19, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if this clarification is needed, but I wanted to quickly add that I made this post (above-- on "photos")^^ in order to to avoid taking credit for work or contributions made by others (photos or writing) to the article.
That doesn't change my feelings that anyone should edit this article any way they want, and that any changes made by others are fine. Honestly I don't care if this article, or the other college or HSMC related articles are totally reshaped (or not), either way, doesn't matter.
I was just trying (in the above photo section) not to take credit for the contributions of others. Yes I contributed a lot to the article, but others contributed as well, that's all I was trying to say. I didn't want credit for the work of others.
I also want to say I haven't heard from anyone else that they feel that the article absolutely has to be edited in any particular way (editorially) either, there are sometimes Wikipedia formatting requirements that come up, but that's a different issue (sometimes brought up by reviewing Wikipedia editors).
Wikipedia Talk pages are for opinions and discussion of editing, I've expressed mine already and have no further interest in the editorial direction of the article.
I have no hard feelings about this either, it's completely fine, it's not important to me. People have a right to their opinions and people also have the right to be human.
This is Wikipedia, where articles are often changed around, people also have a right to disagree.
Whether the article is changed totally, partially or not at all-- it's all good. I happily and with all best wishes release all editorial interest in any of the college or HSMC articles.
I guess I've added a few more posts than I expected to, but they have all been towards just wrapping up any last issues. The article is a big complicated work and each of the "late posts" have just been to help resolve any lose ends. All towards the end of moving on.
Very best to all,
Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 19:40, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Finished here with this article. Moving on.
Very best to all,
Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 21:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Article content[edit]

Most of the content in this article is irrelevant to the subject and recounts the history of St. Mary's City itself rather than the school; it desperately needs restructuring -- (Wikipedian1234 (talk) 01:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC))[reply]

The part of the article that actually addresses the subject is far too segmented and reads like a news feed. I noticed that the article on the college has also been poorly written under the direction of Cliffswallow-vaulting. These articles need to be brought up to basic Wikipedia standards -- (Wikipedian1234 (talk) 01:52, 12 May 2015 (UTC))[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 8 external links on History of St. Mary's College of Maryland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:12, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 6 external links on History of St. Mary's College of Maryland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 23:08, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:37, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:History_of_St._Mary%27s_College_of_Maryland&oldid=1207556380"