Talk:Objections to evolution

Cambrian explosion

So folks know it's there and look so maybe improve it: I have written a subsection for the Cambrian explosion complexity argument for the 'Creation of complex structures' section as requested at top, at least enough to present the Cambrian Explosion and some of the scientific struggles with it. The complexity argument seems to be about the phyla level occurrences so rapidly then (and none since). I have put in readable substantial sources, but would have liked to include that counts up to 100 phyla (attributed to Valentine; Clark 1997), or get Valentines latest. Markbassett (talk) 04:04, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

No adds from anyone on Valentine and complexity argument is getting lost with speed inserts and false blaming the cites so trying to clarify ...

Markbassett (talk) 23:17, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Been 10 days and no talk or edits so I guess the clarification was somewhat acceptable. Would have hoped someone had more from Valentine or if newer Cladistics views play with the Phylum level of classic hierarchial view, but guess that is for another day. Will check back in a few weeks and edit the header that called for this section if things seem to have met the call. Markbassett (talk) 02:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I've edited the to-do list to reflect the Cambrian Explosion bit inserted seems to be sticking so that to-do item is now done. It could be expanded by Valentine or other materials I don't know of as routine wiki gardening as or when folks find something relevant. Markbassett (talk) 17:11, 23 August 2014 (UTC).

Proposed addition (revised)

Conversely, it is a false premise that the second law of thermodynamics applies only to isolated systems. Exerpt from a university course:

“second Law of thermodynamics can be stated in several equivalent ways, three of which are:

...

3) The entropy of an isolated system never decreases. It can only stay the same or increase. If the system is not isolated, then the change in entropy of the system (Ss) plus the change in entropy of the environment (Senv) must be greater than or equal to zero.

∆ S = ∆ Ss + ∆ Senv ≥ 0

The total entropy of any system plus that of its environment increases as a result of any natural process.“

Inanimate systems which are not isolated respond to the law as expected. “We also know from experience that systems tend to reach a state of higher disorder: smoke spontaneously diffuses through the air, sugar dissolves uniformly in water and your bedroom becomes chaotic after only a few days of neglect!” Organisms, in contrast, being open systems (not isolated) respond differently, growing ih in size and complexity. This contradicts the implication that an open (not isolated) system is a cause or an explanation for resolving the conflict of evolution and the second law. “Self-organization” is not the rule in nonliving, not isolated (open) systems.

The open (not isolated) system of Earth is a necessary condition but is not sufficient to account for the increased organization produced by evolution. Energy input from the Sun does not comparably affect inanimate systems to produce order. Nor does a net increase in entropy or an increase in total entropy of necessity cause or explain an increase in organization. Ice melting in a glass of water in a warm room increases entropy but there is no apparent attendant increase in organization. Quantitatively or qualitatively, a net increase in entropy or an increase in total entropy does not of necessity cause or explain an increase in organization.

The Mathematical Intelligencer statement should be considered circumspectly. That fertilized eggs turn into babies is seen as routine and as unremarkable as water freezing into ice needs to be evaluated in light of the description by Schrödinger in his 1944 book What is Life?

“An organism’s astonishing gift of concentrating a ‘stream of order’ on itself and thus escaping the decay into atomic chaos – of ‘drinking orderliness’ from a suitable environment – seems to be connected with the presence of the ‘aperiodic solids’ the chromosome molecules, which doubtless represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of – much higher than the ordinary crystal…”

Dobzhansky, the author of the dictum: “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution” also regarded that evolution exceeds the ordinary as divine involvement is alleged:

“The organic diversity becomes, however, reasonable and understandable if the Creator has created the living world not by caprice but by evolution propelled by natural selection. It is wrong to hold creation and evolution as mutually exclusive alternatives. I am a creationist and an evolutionist. Evolution is God’s, or Nature’s method of creation.” LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 23

07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

References

'A recent study' in 'The American Biology Teacher'? References to a book written by a non biologist in 1944? I don't think so. Dbrodbeck (talk) 23:33, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Dbrodbeck - are you looking at the wrong thing?? The article cited to that is from February 2014, seems appropriate to call that "A recent study". The references for it seem visible online, mostly 2010 thru 2013, with one 2009, one 2008, one 1999 and one historical 1865. See url http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1525/abt.%202014.76.2.4?journalCode=ambt& Markbassett (talk) 00:12, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn’t a teaching journal be a good place to start if a correction were needed in the teaching of biologists about the second law?LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 16:29, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I imagine it would be in big review articles, and it isn't. Dbrodbeck (talk) 17:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

That, and it would be more beneficial if it were a little more recent in origin.--Mr Fink (talk) 17:34, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

LEBOLTZMANN2 - It could be a good place but it seems limited. I would expect a teaching journal to focus on teaching techniques and practice, and this journal article about handling questions on thermodynamics relationship would seem limited to a fixed context that the overall course material and goals is fixed ... just can put in side remarks or context to external. To change the content would seem to require more the type of political action and financial mechanisms shown by No Child Left Behind or Common Core. But so what ? It does not seem to really be something that would be meat for the Objections wiki article at the Thermodynamics section though. Markbassett (talk) 00:23, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Markbassett This line of discussion could lead to a problem. The premise of the section is “The 2nd law of thermodynamics applies only to isolated systems.” By implication, the claim is the law does not apply to open systems and somehow this explains the matter. It is not likely a major scientific journal would publish an article on what has been known since 1865 (Clausius), that is the second law is a law and thereby applies universally, to open and to isolated thermodynamic systems. LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 20:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

LEBOLTZMANN2 - I gotta say go with the cites. If the teaching guidance is contrary to 'closed', then the article 'closed' might get a mod; but the article should follow UNDUE and not show as minority view as dominant, and if it's not clearly an objection then should not add a WP:OR step of logic. Just saying the usual applies -- to report what's said in the topic of this article and not present conclusions or prominence that isn't out there. Markbassett (talk) 00:37, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Dbrodbeck So the Mathematical Intelligencer is acceptable as a reference.

The Mathematical Intelligencer publishes articles about mathematics, about mathematicians, and about the history and culture of mathematics. Written in an engaging, informal style, our pages inform and entertain a broad audience of mathematicians and the wider intellectual community. We welcome expository articles on all kinds of mathematics, and articles that portray the diversity of mathematical communities and mathematical thought, emergent mathematical communities around the world, new interdisciplinary trends, and relations between mathematics and other areas of culture. Humor is welcome, as are puzzles, poetry, fiction, and art.

And the American Biology Teacher is not.

The American Biology Teacher is an award winning and peer-refereed professional journal for K-16 biology teachers. Articles include topics such as modern biology content, biology teaching strategies for the classroom and laboratory, field activities, and a wide range of assistance for application and professional development.

Mathematician Jason Rosenhouse is acceptable.

Books

"The Monty Hall Problem: The Remarkable Story of Math's Most Contentious Brain Teaser," Oxford University Press

"Among the Creationists: Dispatches from the Anti-Evolutionist Front Line," Oxford University Press

"Taking Sudoku Seriously: The Math Behind the World's Most Popular Pencil Puzzle," Oxford University Press

And physicist, Nobel Laureate Erwin Schrödinger is not

According to James D. Watson's memoir, DNA, the Secret of Life, Schrödinger's book gave Watson the inspiration to research the gene, which led to the discovery of the DNA double helix structure in 1953. Similarly, Francis Crick, in his autobiographical book What Mad Pursuit, described how he was influenced by Schrödinger's speculations about how genetic information might be stored in molecules.

And geneticist and evolutionary biologist Theodosius Dobzhansky is not.

A prominent geneticist and evolutionary biologist, and a central figure in the field of evolutionary biology for his work in shaping the unifying modern evolutionary synthesis. He published a major work of the modern evolutionary synthesis, Genetics and the Origin of Species, in 1937. He was awarded the National Medal of Science in 1964 and the Franklin Medal in 1973.LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 17:07, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I wish you guys stop banging your heads on the Second Law. Yes, life is an exception, but the "divine" magic is not the scientific explanation of this anomaly. Please refer to Entropy and life. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 23:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

LEBOTLZMANN - *all* inputs apply, just present what is out there in due respect to what it actually says and what prominence in the topic it has. Just go with the cites and report what they are in terms of thermodynamic objections to evolution -- be careful of the portrayal in particular. For example, I think you shouldn't say as a fact "is" or a particular label such as "Conversely it is a false premise" unless it can be solidly supported that the exact phrase 'false premise' is out there and agreed with so much as to be regarded as fact. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:32, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Violation of the second law of thermodynamics

Further information: Entropy and life

Proposed revision with additions

Since Earth receives energy from the Sun, it is an open system. The 2nd law of thermodynamics applies only to isolated systems.

Objection

Another objection is that evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. Though the law applies to all systems, in the case of a closed one it states, "the entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium". In other words, an ideal isolated system's entropy (a measure of the dispersal of energy in a physical system so that it is not available to do mechanical work) will tend to increase or stay the same, not decrease. Creationists argue that evolution violates this physical law by requiring a decrease in entropy, or disorder, over time.

Reply

This claim is based on a manifestation of the law only applicable to isolated systems, which do not exchange matter or energy with their surroundings. Organisms, in contrast, are open systems, as they constantly exchange energy and matter with their environment: for example animals eat food and excrete waste, and radiate and absorb heat. Similarly, the Earth absorbs energy from the Sun and emits energy back into space. The Sun-Earth-space system does not violate the second law, because the enormous increase in entropy due to the Sun and Earth radiating into space dwarfs the local decrease in entropy caused by the existence and evolution of self-organizing life.

Since the second law of thermodynamics has a precise mathematical definition, this argument can be analyzed quantitatively. This was done by physicist Daniel F. Styer, who concluded: "Quantitative estimates of the entropy involved in biological evolution demonstrate that there is no conflict between evolution and the second law of thermodynamics."

Issues

The second law applies to all systems, open (not isolated) systems as well as isolated systems. "The second Law of thermodynamics can be stated in several equivalent ways, three of which are:::...

3) The entropy of an isolated system never decreases. It can only stay the same or increase.

If the system is not isolated, then the change in entropy of the system (Ss) plus the change in entropy of the environment (Senv) must be greater than or equal to zero.

∆ S = ∆ Ss + ∆ Senv ≥ 0

The total entropy of any system plus that of its environment increases as a result of any natural process." “We also know from experience that systems tend to reach a state of higher disorder: smoke spontaneously diffuses through the air, sugar dissolves uniformly in water and your bedroom becomes chaotic after only a few days of neglect!”

As open systems, organisms seem to be anomalies. "There is a subtle but significant difference between biological and non-living open (not isolated) systems. For example, a fence post is an open system. A metal post will thermally expand when warmed by external factors (sunlight or ambient air) but retains its structure and does not grow in complexity...it is seen that biological open systems behave as if internally controlled, not reacting to external variables in the way that nonliving systems do. Cells and organisms act upon their surroundings, even foraging, taking in and rejecting nutrients, controlling quantity and variety."

Similar contrasting responses are observed even within organisms: “Unlike the parts of a cell which simply deteriorate if isolated, whole cells can be removed from a plant or animal and cultured in a laboratory where they will grow and reproduce for extended periods of time” . Again a question: What makes a part of a cell react as expected by the second law, and yet the whole cell grows and reproduces? Organisms, such as sunflowers, mature, decline, and die (even if placed in a situation where there is adequate sunlight and nutrients) just as expected by the second law. This behavior is not caused by change in total entropy of earth’s system or the sun’s radiant energy, but by some other governing mechanism.

Perspectives

In a published letter to the editor of The Mathematical Intelligencer titled "How anti-evolutionists abuse mathematics", mathematician Jason Rosenhouse stated:

The fact is that natural forces routinely lead to decreases in entropy. Water freezes into ice and fertilised eggs turn into babies. Plants use sunlight to convert carbon dioxide and water into sugar and oxygen, but [we do] not invoke divine intervention to explain the process [...] thermodynamics offers nothing to dampen our confidence in Darwinism.

Nobel Laureate physicist Schrödinger in his book What is Life?

“An organism’s astonishing gift of concentrating a ‘stream of order’ on itself and thus escaping the decay into atomic chaos – of ‘drinking orderliness’ from a suitable environment – seems to be connected with the presence of the ‘aperiodic solids’ the chromosome molecules, which doubtless represent the highest degree of well-ordered atomic association we know of – much higher than the ordinary crystal…”

Evolutionary biologist Dobzhansky, the author of the dictum: “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution”:

“The organic diversity becomes, however, reasonable and understandable if the Creator has created the living world not by caprice but by evolution propelled by natural selection. It is wrong to hold creation and evolution as mutually exclusive alternatives. I am a creationist and an evolutionist. Evolution is God’s, or Nature’s method of creation.”

LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 17:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Can you please summarize in fewer, simpler words about what it is you're trying to propose? Are you proposing references to improve the section about the Creationist trope of "evolution magically violates the 2nd Law" or are you saying that the counterarguments against this objections are and are not valid?--Mr Fink (talk) 18:32, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I believe they want the 'Proposed revision with additions' text added to the article in its entirety. Is that essentially it, LEBOLTZMANN2? --‖ Ebyabe ^talk - Union of Opposites ‖ 20:37, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Ebyabe Yes. What is proposed is to replace the section Volation of the second law with this revision. It incorporates all of the original article and adds some information under three new titles.

The reason for the addition is that the counterarguments raise issues. If “the second law only applies to isolated systems”, then the second law cannot be a law of science which are universal. The excerpt from a university course shows how the law applies to systems that are not isolated. Examples from the references point out other inconsistencies. LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 11:08, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Bad idea.

The situation ist this: Creationists claim that evolution contradicts the second law. It doesn't. The article says that und gives reasons. That's enough.

The creationists handle the situation like this: after the refutation, they change the direction of their reasoning and stop talking about the second law, while pretending they still do.

Earlier, you suggested the sentence

"The open (not isolated) system of Earth is a necessary condition but is not sufficient to account for the increased organization produced by evolution."

This is exactly what I am talking about. You are not talking about the second law, you are just saying "I don't get it." You are unable to explain "increased organization" from just energy input. This is your personal problem. It has nothing to do with the science, just with your imagination, knowledge, and reasoning ability. It is not a counter argument. And it has nothing to do with the second law.

The suggestions directly above are not any better:

• The Schrödinger quote just says that life is complex. This has nothing to do with the second law.
• The Dobzhansky quote talks about the compatibility of religion and science. This has nothing to do with the second law.

If we add things that have nothing to do with the second law, to a paragraph about the second law, we give in to the creationist obfuscation strategy.

Closer to the subject are sentences like this:

"As open systems, organisms seem to be anomalies."

This is just wrong. All systems are open systems. Isolated systems do not exist in reality, they are ideal concepts that help us deal with reality. You approximate something as an isolated system, then look at the deviations and determine their consequences. This way you can handle some situations - namely the ones where you are close enough to an isolated systems. If the system is "too open", it won't work very well.

Your whole suggestion is wrongheaded in some way or other. This is because you are trying to justify a wrongheaded worldview. Give it up, it's hopeless. Others have tried for decades to save the Second Law Objection and failed miserably in every case. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Nevertheless the clear statement: “The 2nd law of thermodynamics applies only to isolated systems.” is misleading. That statement is contradicted by the description of how the second law applies to not isolated systems. The very definition of a scientific law contradicts the statement. Unless this issue is addressed, Wikipedia is misleading those who come for information on evolution.LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 22:26, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

There is exactly 0 chance that Wikipedia will ever assert that the second law of thermodynamics is incompatible with biological evolution, regardless of how many times you repeat yourself on this page. --JBL (talk) 23:05, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

LEBOLTZMANN2, please do not use the talkpage as an arena from which to launch ridiculously inane and inanely false accusations of there being some sort of inane political conspiracy to cover up the alleged assertion that the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics magically prevents evolution from occurring. Wikipedia will not allow this assert because A) IT IS A DEMONSTRABLY FALSE ASSERTION, and posting false assertions as true directly compromises the primary purpose of Wikipedia being an encyclopedia, and B) claiming that this is true would be giving undue and unfair weight in favor of fringe groups. If it was true, then we would not see any descent with modification at all, as all organisms would be perfect copies of their parents, and all situations of speciation would be blatant, magical miracles of God.

Having said that, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AND PUPPIES, PLEASE MAKE A SUCCINCT PROPOSAL THAT IS NOT AN INDECIPHERABLE WALL OF TEXT THAT DOES NOT NEED THE INCLUSION OF INANE RANTS ABOUT INANE POLITICAL CONSPIRACIES.--Mr Fink (talk) 19:20, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

JBL If the second law of thermodynamics were compatible with biological evolution, then a logical narrative is that the second law applies only to isolated systems. Of course, this requires us to believe Clausius would have promulgated a new universal law of physics that applies to isolated systems only and in contrast to the first law which applies everywhere and at all times. And as Hob Gadling correctly points out, Isolated systems “do not exist in reality”.

Note the quality of the supporting scholarship for the isolated system argument:

Reference 170 was identified by the author as “This article is adapted from my notes for Mr. Tompkins Gets Serious: The Essential George Gamow.” The author does not state if it was ever published.

Reference 171 is from “Talk.origins is a Usenet newsgroup devoted to the discussion and debate of biological and physical origins....” “The TalkOrigins Archive is a collection of articles and essays, most of which have appeared in talk.origins at one time or another...”LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 11:11, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Mr Fink Sorry for any false accusations or rants. As to the science, things naturally fall apart whereas in evolution organisms grow in size and complexity prompting a need for explanation. The explanation in Wikipedia based on the concept of a system that is not isolated is not as good an explanation or “counter argument” as some would like to think. This should not be a problem as scientists change the way they look at things when faced with new information.LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 11:43, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

But the problem is with your claim that you refuse to comprehend is IF THERE IS AN ACTUAL PROBLEM WITH THE SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS INTERFERING WITH EVOLUTION AND GROWTH, WE WOULD NOT SEE ANY EVOLUTION OR GROWTH AT ALL BEYOND BLATANT LITERAL ACTS OF GOD. So, I repeat, please please please please please for the Love of God and puppies, please please please please cough up a succinct proposal that does not require original research, inappropriate synthesis, or inappropriately favorable weight to fringe groups with a blatant anti-science motive., or please stop wasting everyone's time.--Mr Fink (talk) 15:30, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

You're constantly proposing a ridiculously verbose "Nuh-uh" to to the counter of how the Second Law of Thermodynamics does not actually apply to biological evolution because the Second Law does not apply directly to a process of accumulation of copy errors, or that organisms do not violate the 2nd Law because they reproduce through budding off their own material, WHICH WAS NEVER EXPLICITLY FORBIDDEN BY THE SECOND LAW, and maintain their growth and order by adding entropy to their environment through taking resources.--Mr Fink (talk) 15:56, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

The answer to the general question of whether evolution violates the second law or not and consequential ramifications is beyond my pay grade. Within my purview is the question prompted by the existing article: Does the second law apply only to isolated systems? If this is not a true assertion then the counter argument to the stated objection needs rethinking. Also needing explanation is the thermodynamic difference between open (not isolated) systems that are living and those that are inanimate. A specific proposal has been posted on 17:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC).LEBOLTZMANN2 (talk) 22:04, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

If evolution really does violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics, IT WOULD NOT OCCUR PERIOD AND ALL ORGANISMS WOULD BE PERFECT COPIES OF THEIR PARENTS. Furthermore, your "specific proposal" is, as I've stated before, an indecipherable wall of text that requires original research, inappropriate synthesis, and give inappropriately favorable weight to fringe groups with a blatant anti-science motive. So please wasting everyone's time and bandwidth making blatantly inappropriate proposals.--Mr Fink (talk) 22:12, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Chill all, and please just stick with whatever cites are and say. For the article topic of "Objections", if there are published objections to evolution stated using 2nd law of thermodynamics, then it belongs here in proportion to its prominence, described as an objection that exists but not as the mainstream view. If there are not significant amounts of objections from that basis then it does not belong here. OK ? Markbassett (talk) 23:33, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Thing is Mark, that none of the objections are "mainstream". Evolution is real, so objections are jokes implanted by religions. You can list them and quote references, it does not make them scientific, real or coherent. BatteryIncluded (talk) 00:23, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

That, and the rebuttals that LEBOLTZMANN2 are proposing are all incoherent original research and synthesis that gives undue weight towards fringe groups that have a blatant anti-science motive.--Mr Fink (talk) 02:18, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Yup. time to move on. Dbrodbeck (talk) 02:30, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. Why is this ludicrous thread still open?Charles (talk) 08:35, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Battery - The article topic is Objections and so what the objection are and soource is by cites. There is no Talk purpose to debates on logic or convincing and no statement about validity there -- just convey the objections and can skip Talk debating it's validity. Markbassett (talk) 17:13, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Objecting to evolution is as pointless as objecting to gravity or to the sky looking blue. Makes me wonder why we have this article at all.Charles (talk) 18:36, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Ditto. I have considered putting it up for AfD in the past myself, and would !vote to delete it if someone else did. I can't see its encyclopedic value. This is something that is better handled by other sites like TOA. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 19:30, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The purpose of this particular article is to catalog the various objections and arguments Creationists and other science-deniers make, bring up and resurrect repeatedly, and dissect some of these objections to point out a few of the logical fallacies and bullshit contents. People tend to forget this in their talkpage crusades.--Mr Fink (talk) 20:51, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Larger Scale vs Longer Time Scale.

Apokryltaros - I noticed that you quickly reverted my edit. Perhaps this is a standard reaction to a IP edit on an article that likely receives more than its fair share of vandalism. I respectfully disagree however with your reason given as "Same thing". It may be true that to you they are the same thing because you understand the ToE properly, but that is not necessarily true for everyone else. Someone not familiar with the ToE may not recognize the two phrases as the same, and may actually incorrectly interpret "larger scale" as major changes (like the sudden appearance of a new organ or something similar). I suppose that might be accurate from the view of a paleontologist as we don't have fossils of every generation, however from the view of a biologist time is the only difference between micro' and macro' within the ToE. Please refer to the Wikipedia article on macroevolution in which the first paragraph states "Macroevolution and microevolution describe fundamentally identical processes on different time scales". My primary reason for making the change is for clarity, as the article in general has many sentences describing Creationist arguments which fail to actually represent the ToE properly. So when referencing what the actual ToE states, it is important to be as clear as possible. Although, I am unable to view the cited sources for the sentence, perhaps TO uses the phrase "larger scale", in which case I suppose I could withdraw my requested change. I still think clarity would be benificial to a complex article like this. TY 12.165.27.130 (talk) 22:46, 16 October 2014 (UTC) SevenPatch

Actually, "larger scale" would imply and encompass both a longer time scale, and more noticeably dramatic changes in evolutionary trends, whereas "longer time scale" would not.--Mr Fink (talk) 23:20, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

How do you define the word "scale"? Upon further thought, I think the whole sentence should be rewritten. The sentence currently reads "Additionally, the modern evolutionary synthesis draws no distinction between macroevolution and microevolution, considering the former to simply be the latter on a larger scale." First it states that the MES draws no distinction, then at the end it states that "on a larger scale" is perhaps a distinction. Perhaps it would be better to state that there is "no distinction in the processes described by the theory of evolution". I propose the sentence be reworded as "Additionally, the modern evolutionary synthesis draws no distinction in the processes described by the theory when considering macroevolution and microevolution as the former is simply at the species level or above." I'd also point out that the wikipedia entry for the modern evolutionary synthesis references an unscientific term "megaevolution", I've raised this issue on the talkpage there. The page "Objections to evolution" seems to be of higher quality than the "modern evolutionary synthesis" page. 12.165.27.130 (talk) 17:19, 17 October 2014 (UTC) SevenPatch

I would object to "at the species level or above". That definition is the one used by creationists, not scientists. When scientists use it, which isn't all that often, mind you, it is much more vague, referring to an undefined relatively greater time period, sorta kinda. I'm not convinced there is a widely agreed upon definition or distinction, and scientists never make the distinction in the same manner that creationists do. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:07, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Really? This is the first time I've heard it claimed that "at the species level or above" is a creationist definition. I've gotten quite the opposite impression that it is indeed a defintiion used by scientists. In fact, it appears that that definition is used in other wiki articles which accuratly reflect scientific definitions. Example 1 would be the wiki article on "Macroevolution" which states "Macroevolutionary studies focus on change that occurs at or above the level of species, in contrast with microevolution, which refers to smaller evolutionary changes (typically described as changes in allele frequencies) within a species or population." Example 2 is the wiki featured article on evolution itself which states "These outcomes of evolution are sometimes divided into macroevolution, which is evolution that occurs at or above the level of species, such as extinction and speciation and microevolution, which is smaller evolutionary changes, such as adaptations, within a species or population." as well as " In general, macroevolution is regarded as the outcome of long periods of microevolution. Thus, the distinction between micro- and macroevolution is not a fundamental one – the difference is simply the time involved." Example 3 would be pretty much every educational resource online including Berkeley, Talkorigins and Biology Online. Of interest though is that Biology Online does use the phrase "large scale" although I am still of the opinion that it would be better to use a more detailed definition, such as "at the species level or above". 12.165.27.130 (talk) 18:39, 17 October 2014 (UTC) SevenPatch