Talk:Lion/Archive 1

Lion mane and protection in fights

I removed this claim from the article. As I have pointed out in past edits, it has actually been disproven by researchers that the lion mane protects males in fights, not proven. Darwin was the first person to propose that the mane provided protection in fights, but he has since been proven wrong. The mane is actually related to sexual selection. Female lions prefer male lions with darker and larger manes. See August (2002 I think it was) issue of Science for vertification.

June 20, 2006: Removed this bogus claim yet again. (Third time I think?)

Once again, research has shown that the mane DOES NOT provide protection in fights. See August 2002 issue of Science for the real purpose of the mane.

You know, the mane may not be there as a designed tool for fighting, but you can't despute the fact that it does offer protection, intentional or not. A puffy mane most certainly lessens the force of a blow or a scratch, or even a bite.

Thanks for the reference on manes not being protective in fights. I have yet to look it up but I do think one can also use reason here, if only for a starter. When you see clips of lions fighting other lions or tigers (i.e. on youtube.com) it certainly does seem an advantage to have a mane. To me it looks like a tiger has, on several different shots, bitten, only to get a mouthful of hair. That this is not an advantage to the manes owner is like asking if you would rather have a dog bite your hair or your shoulder (or even throat). Finally, that a mane would also cushion seems very likely.

Model after German verison?

this article feels funny. i think we should model it after the german-language version. anyone agree? --Danreitz 15:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you could clarify. What feels funny about it? I think that the 'gallery' in the middle of the page ought to be done away with. Also, there are too many pictures around the subspecies area, though I agree that the picture of the Asiatic lioness is worth its inclusion. Perhaps the other two can be moved or done away with. A picture of a black-maned Kalahari lion would be nice. - Slow Graffiti 18:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Lions in the Wild

may i ask why this was deleated? just wondering

-Schuyler s. 18:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Habitat?

The first part of the article says they live in the jungles of South Africa and South America. Later part of the article says that they don't live in the jungle, they mostly live in plains. Could someone who knows lions better correct this? --65.208.187.200 21:30, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Man eating

The man-eating lion section of this article is imported from Everything2. Since I wrote it, I am free to do so... -- Emperorbma 23:20, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I am not happy with the man eating lion stuff. It's not neutral. Okay, some lions do attack men, and some famous. But's its probably a case of if "man bites dog". There is good reason for lions to be scared of humans, and they were often killed by humans since they can kill cattle. And they were probably eliminated from Europe this way

The man-eating section dosn't follow contemporary research, it is now accepted that maneless lions are not aberrant, that the worn teeth were not a cause for the attacks, and that man-eating may in fact be a social trait, passed from generation to generation. 66.212.222.143 23:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Ligers and Tigons (oh my!)

The crossbreed section seems a little long, and only tangentially related. It's certainly interesting, but it seems this info would go best in the Liger and Tion articles, with a mere "see also" link here. Does anyone object? – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 21:24, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. 68.81.231.127 07:32, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually some of the size info on Togon is rather nonsense, they are nothing like a house cat. Though smaller than their parents in average, theey still weigh about 150 kg and have the size of female lion - nothing like a house cat. Source : http://www.tiger-online.org/tigbib/bigcats/bigcats.htm perhaps they mean newborns? i know a tigon is more slender, and thus its cub would look something like a housecat fully grown..

I have corrected the data on tigon size to match the information in the article on tigons and the information presented here in the discussion. The 80% figure is a simple, rounded calculation of 150/180*100%. While it would certainly be cool to have a housecat-sized big cat, it does not look like the tigon will fill that role. --InformationalAnarchist 8 July 2005 19:27 (UTC)

I also suspect that the relatively large tangent about hybrids is out of place in this article. I left it all for now, but made some comments. For one, 'Siberian tigers' are no longer called such because it's become apparent that the distribution of the subspecies is not limited to Siberia. They've been renamed as 'Amur tigers' as their distribution largely covers the area around the river of that name. Also, I explained why tigons are less common. I am in favour of this section being shortened - only a mention of hybrids with links to their respective pages. It seems silly to only mention lion/tiger crosses when leopards and lions have been crossed as well (sometimes with jaguars, even). Slow Graffiti 07:07, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Well on that bit that the Lion is the most powerful in combat and you alls source is a site with not one source to back the claim up sad. The Tiger (Bengal and Siberian) is on average larger, Stronger, Faster, and certainly more agile than the Lion (after the Tiger is also a hunter, but won't hesitate to fight) To the picture where the Lion slaps the Tiger

I wrote that piece being commented on above: The heaviest tigers shot were indeed heavier than the heaviest lions shot in the wild (388 kg and 313 kg, respectively). But, the classical assertion that tigers be larger than lions is surprisingly poorly documented, considering how often it is encountered. The largest tigers and lions are very close to each other in size, as can be verified by anyone visiting a large museum of natural history. There is no proof presented on this page, or anywhere else acccesible by googling 'lion' or 'tiger' to suggest that tigers have an advantage in speed or muscle power. I request that such claims be substantiated before being put forward. It is puzzling to see that there is a very strong 'fan club' for the tiger on the internet, doing its best to refute any evidence that lions may be more successful in combat when the two are confronted. Let me end with considering four cases in point to suggest this 'lobbying' and attempt to bend the facts to reach a desired conclusion: 1)The most thorough theoretical investigation of the relative strengths of these animals would probably be 'Animal Face Off: tiger vs lion'. This has been widely discarded as superficial and unrealistic. But, using i) extensive filming to establish fighting techniques and behaviour, ii) robots to reproduce their destructive power and iii) fairly advanced software to analyze their results, all under the supervision people who teach big cat anatomy at SUNY Buffalo, or have reared tigers, or have kept lions in zoos, frankly, I fail to see how one could investigate this question any more seriously, from a theoretical point of view. Hence, we are left with the conclusion that theoretically, the lion is the most powerful. 2)Bogus claims have been made regarding the gender of a tiger fighting a lion on one of the most widely distributed shots of this. This footage from 'The Big Cage' is claimed to be of a female tiger, or tigress, when in fact testes are clearly visible on closer inspection [1]. And, as if to cross firmly over from the 'unlikely to be true' to the truely bizarre, the legend text with the footage claims that the 'tigress' kills the lion, when in fact the lion can clearly be seen leaving the cage at the end of the shot (perhaps we are witnessing the first verified shot in history of a ghost leaving the body (???), in which case this is indeed a very interesting short film). Back to the point; I live next to a zoo where lions and tigers can be seen for no charge. The tigers are Amurs and I can testify to the female of this subspecies being much smaller than a male African lion. On the footage, they can be seen to be of very similar size which further suggests that it is extremely unlikely be a female tiger. 3)While I have yet to see the opposite, we do have evidence that lions have defeated tigers in combat such as this video [2] that does seem to end with the killing of the tiger. You will see plenty of claims of videos of tigers having killed lions, but as point two exemplifies, the lions tend to do very well for killed animals, in these videos. 4) Lairweb [3], an excellent source on tigers on the internet, concludes that 'the modern male lion has no equal in the cat world when it comes to his fighting ability'. This site has been dismissed by tiger fans as superficial, lacking in credibility and, somewhat surprisingly, as biased against the tiger. They have yet to answer for two things: a) providing excellent and verifiable information on so many other aspects of the tiger, why would Lairweb suddenly depart from this impressive standard (which is as good as you will find in any popular science book on tigers) and enter into misguided and grossly incorrect statements on this single issue of tigers in confrontation with lions. b) the rather obvious; by what advanced system of logic do they reach the conclusion that a web page created primarily to celebrate, and inform about, the tiger, be biased against this animal??? This seems the equivalent of saying that your lawyer (who seems to be up to standard on all other issues) helped convict you. MyS

Thank you for being alive! We need more people that can be as logical and detailed as you. Well said!

extinct american lions

apparently north america had lions at the same time as wooly mammoths and such... - Omegatron 18:16, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

Yes. 68.81.231.127 07:32, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

the following bits need a little looking-at, eh? this can't be right.

-The lion, as all the other animals fears unknown objects, for instance, if a lion goes you to attack and you to show for him a toilet paper, he will retreat.
-Lions hibernate during the winter time.

also, i don't think the asiatic lioness picture should be so close to the bit about ligers, it's confusing.

I have moved the Asiatic lioness picture to the section on subspecies. Does this solve the problem? --InformationalAnarchist 8 July 2005 19:42 (UTC)

fear of the unknown

The lion, as all the other animals fears unknown objects, for instance, if a lion goes you to attack and you to show for him a toilet paper, he will retreat.

Can anyone confirm this? It sounds rather implausible. jdb ❋ 05:38, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Good catch. This article attracts a fair amount of overt vandalism, but there is also some stealth vandalism: the edit before yours removed a suspicious line about lions hibernating that has been part of the article for quite some time. 68.81.231.127 22:31, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Purring Lions?

I was just curious; do lions Purr? Its a basic trait for felines to purr, but the page on purring, and this lion page doesn't say anything regarding purring. Does anyone know if Lions, or big cats in general, purr?

• I'd like to think they do, but i honestly dont know. Jdcooper 16:32, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

All cats (and only cats) purr; however, whilst domestic cats can purr continuously as they breathes in and out, lions and suchlike can only purr when exhaling. — Chameleon 17:08, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I understand that the largest cat that purrs is actually the mountain lion. However, this information comes from a children's educational show (whose name escapes me) so I cannot provide a reliable source. Prehaps there is some debate about what qualifies as purring? --InformationalAnarchist 8 July 2005 19:34 (UTC)

• Lions do not truly purr. They can make a sound that resembles purring, but unlike house cats and other cats in the Felis genus which make the sound from their diaphragm, lions and other catc in the Panthera genus make the sound from their vocal chords.

the real nickname of the lion, it the king of the beasts, not the king of the jungle.

why wikipedia dosent have link to the bigcatrescue.org website?

It is linked to a number of other big cat entries. Also, 'true big cats' or 'great cats' - if it means anything - denote the cats that can roar, and only purr when exhaling: tigers, lions, leopards, and jaguars. Larger cats excluded by this are pumas, snow leopards, clouded leopards, and cheetahs. Slow Graffiti 07:10, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

White lions

It is known that the white tiger is just simply an albino tiger. Same with white lions. That is a mistake to say that they can only be found in certain areas because though they might have been spotted there, they probably can be found in other areas as well. No one goes around looking for a white lion all day, so no one can say the albino lions are found in one spot only. Also, on the subject of jungle versus plains, lions prefer the plains because they blend in and there is room for them to run after their prey. In the thick jungles they would have a difficult time catching prey because it takes alot more energy to wind around obstacles and they do not blend in so prey would run off. Plus, most of their prey animals live on the plains. --BeccaRose 04:05, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

White lions are not albinos, the unusual colouration is caused by a recessive gene. Pigmentation is still present, as seen in the eye, paw pad and lip colour etc. albinism is the lack of pigmentation, this is not to say that albino lions cannot exist.

All the white lions in the world today are in zoos and captive breeding programs. Almost all of them trace their lineage to the Timbavati area in South Africa. There are exceptions, near white (not bright white) cubs have been born in captivity to parents who where not previously known to carry the genes. Timbavati is the only place in the world where they have been credibly documented to exist in the wild.

African game parks and reserves, particularly those in southern Africa, are not as devoid of people as they may seem, most are permanently staffed by wardens and guards, and many have on-going monitoring and research projects, any new sightings of white lion would soon surface in the 'outside' world.

'Jungle' is often, confusingly used to describe almost anything that isn't grassland or plains (Scrub, bush, thickets etc)[On second thoughts even these can be misleading].

Lions are not restricted to the plains, they occur in a wide range of habitats from the savannah woodlands of East Africa to the Kalahari desert. They are not 'run down the prey' species like the wild dog or cheetah, they rely on camouflage and stealth (bushes are useful) to get as close as possible for a quick dash. - Rooivalk 02:00, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

To further clarify, white tigers are generally not albino either. White tigers with stripes are clearly not albino - otherwise, the pigmentation to produce the normal stripes would not be present. You'd be well-advised to check out the 'white tiger' information linked to on the tiger entry here. Slow Graffiti 07:12, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Lions in South America

Any one know about lions in South America

Other than the Mountain Lion or Puma ( & Lion Tamarins and Sea Lions :p), I cannot find any credible references to lions in South America in recent times. I did find one reference to prehistoric lions on the Smithsonian Zoo website, to quote: "More than 10,000 years ago, lions thrived from North and South America to Europe, Africa, and Asia." It does not state which species/subspecies they were referring to. Information and distribution maps about prehistoric & extinct species from other sources tend to conflict with this statement. Does anyone else have more info? - Rooivalk 13:24, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

There are currently no lions in the Americas, only pumas. In prehistoric times there was what's called an American lion, which is classified in the same genus as lions and tigers (panthera), but it is not agreed how closely related they are to modern lions. In addition, the Americas had several other prehistoric big cats, including the miracinonyx (sometimes called the American cheetah) and the smilodon (sabre-toothed tiger), although only the latter lived in South America so far as I know. — Laura Scudder ☎ 13:48, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Subspecies?

Are there any known subspecies of the modern lion species?

Yes! But I don't think there is consensus on how to segregate them. Some talk just of the African lion vs Asiatic lion. Others have many subspecies of lions in Africa such as the Maasai lion of Kenya and Tanzania and Senegalese lions. I'm not sure these are scientifically established but I do think size varies, tending to be larger as the distance to the Equator growns, much like tigers. Two generally recognized African subspecies are the extinct (in the wild at least) Cape and Barbary lions.

strangulation

Please help us, at Talk:Bible scientific foresight, where we are having to argue that almost all naturalists believe that lions kill their prey by biting, rather than attempting to strangle their prey. (The discussion is about whether naturalists believe that lions strangle their prey, or whether this is a ridiculous minority viewpoint amongst naturalists) Clinkophonist 12:38, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Lions in literature?

I noticed that there is a 'lions in media' section that includes reference to 'The Lion King', perhaps it would be worth adding a 'lions in literature' section including, for example Aslan in 'The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe'?

And Simson of course. If you can think of enough lions, why not? Feel free and go ahead... Caesarion 11:48, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

contradictory

The article contradicts itself, in one part it states that there are 300 Asiatic lions, in a later part it says there are only 200. Which is correct? 66.212.222.143 23:18, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The IUCN Red List says about 250 (in 2000). A 1990 census counted some 221 adults living within the Gir Lion Reserve with a further 30-40 lions living in the surrounding agricultural areas. Since August (2005), after the June census recorded 359 lions, at least nine lions have died, some suspiciously. Wells like Bhimabhai's are death traps for unsuspecting Asiatic lions, who fall into them and either end up maimed or dead. This is the most current number, 350 thus. Sources: http://www.asiatic-lion.org and http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php?species=15952&tab=all Pmaas 18:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Changed here in 350. Here the source: Wire fences death traps for big cats. Himanshu Kaushik. Times of India, Thursday, October 27, 2005. [4] Pmaas 18:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Block user!

Can the following IP be blocked!!! 66.154.192.129 This user deleted the complete content of this article twice. And replaced it with childish nonsence/spam. Peter Maas 15:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC) Make that four times now! Is there a moderator or admin somewhere? Peter Maas 15:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Size and weight

very few wild lions exceed 225kg in the wild. The average weight of a male is 150 - 190kg, not 420lbs(approx 200 kg). Well, folks, if you don't believe me, go and confirm with zoologists specialized on lions. Looking at the appearance of lions suggests a light body weight, as they are pretty skinny. So, that the average weight of a male is 420lbs is completely wrong!

420 lbs=190,5 kg --Anshelm '77 00:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, as the contents are easily edited by anyone, the accuracy of the information will become lower and lower. I don't really believe what I read in wiki articles, save for some IT stuffs. They are not of much value for me.

Thank you Anshelm for your correction. Still, the average weight of an adult male is not 190kg, but between 150 - 190 kg, that means many male lions weigh below 420lbs. 190kg means a relatively large lion.

This is a dumb argument. There really isn't something like a set weight. Look at human beings. You got full grown males that can be 120 lb and you got some over 600 lb. Some that are 5 feet some that are over 7. You don't think that the same applies to the animals? If the pride lives in an area where the food is pleantiful, you will see large size lions. If in not, they will be smaller. You'll see a 300lb male lion. But you'll see a 500+ lb as well. Again, it depends on what lion you are looking at. There are many subspices. The South African lions are the largest with males being in the upper 400s to lower 500s. It's all relative, there is not one set number.

Yes, and see what you are talking. About lions as a whole man, what is meant is a lion weighs on average, on average 150 - 190kg, and many below 190 kg. look at your lengthy paragraph, in the end, aren't you talking just the same! Watch your argument again before saying anyone else dumb, man!

First of all I did not call anoyone dumb I said the argument was dumb. And second, I did not say anything that agreed with the comments made earlier. The lion does not max out at 420 lb, that's bogus. The range for the lion is not 150 to 190 kg it's 150 to 250 kg. Lions do grow over 500 lb in South Africa and it is not uncommon. A large lion is not 420 lb, that's your personal statement (most likely based on the fact that you are a tiger fanboy and wish to downplay the size of the lion). You're the type of person that would say that a large lion is 400 lb but an AVERAGE tiger is 600 lb. A healthy average male lion is in the low to mid 400s lb. But that not the top of his weight range, you should really do some research, especially on the South African lions.

Vuck you all, especially tiger fanboys

Barbary Lion: extinct or not?

Someone (88.153.247.168 and User:N.i) keep on reverting! Changing it from "extinct" into "extinct in the wild". I've changed it already too much back in extinct, and will stop doing that for now. Sorry for that. He or she refuses to comment back on his talk page (User_talk:N.i) or in this discussion page or that of Talk:Barbary_Lion. Hopefully I get some funded opinions from other people here. Is the Barbary Lion extinct or extinct in the wild? Peter Maas 15:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

My view is that the Barbary Lion is extinct. Why? See following points. Peter Maas 15:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

• In the past scientists believed that the "distinct" subspecific status of the Barbary lion could be justified by their seemingly fixed external morphology. This morphology was used to identify them. However, now it is known that various extrinsic factors influence the colour and size of a lion’s mane, like the ambient temperature.[2] The cooler ambient temperature in e.g. European and North American zoos can result in heavy mane. Therefore, the heave mane is an inappropriate marker for identifying Barbary lines.
• The molecular marker for identifying Barbary lions has revealed that five tested samples of lions from the famous Barbary Lion collection of the King of Morocco are not maternally Barbary.
• There is no proof of any surviving pure Barbary Lion in captivity.

Peter Maas 15:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Just to inform you all: I've recieved an email from Dr Nobuyuki Yamaguchi (Wildlife Conservation Research Unit Oxford University, Department of Zoology). He does a lot of research to the Barbary lion (he is the (co-)author of the most recent scientific articles on this subject). This is what he says: "Based on the best knowledge available at the moment, I would say they have become extinct at least in the wild. If one would carry out a worldwide survey on the genetic characteristics of captive lions, the answer may be changed. Also, the concept of conservation of lion genetic diversity may also change the concept of extinction in the future." Do you have a problem with changing it into: "The Barbary Lion, Atlas lion or Nubian lion Panthera leo leo is a subspecies of lion that has become extinct at least in the wild." Please respond this time on the talk pages. Peter Maas 15:23, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Lion-baiting

As much as we may not like Lion-baiting it certainly is a part of the lions history. You might want to vote on this article:

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lion-baiting

Cordially SirIsaacBrock 01:56, 14 July 2006 (UTC)