Talk:A Mighty Fortress Is Our God

Comment

Psalm 46 Verse 9: He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.

The Mighty Fortress Luther speaks of is one of pacifism! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.6.30.192 (talk • contribs).

Umm... I don't get what this has to do with the hymn... Luther is after the point of the whole Psalm, which is that God is a place of refuge in times of trouble, so a child of God does not need to be afraid. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 17:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Other Translations

Just a comment. Three English translations are mentioned in the passage, but only one is given. The Lutheran Book of Worship has this translation:

A mighty fortress is our God,
A sword and shield victorious.
He breaks the cruel oppressor's rod
And wins salvation glorious.
The old satanic foe
Has sworn to work us woe.
With craft and dreadful might
He arms himself to fight.
On Earth he has no equal.

No strength of ours can match his might.
We would be lost, rejected.
But now a champion comes to fight,
Whom God Himself elected.
You ask who this may be.
The Lord of Hosts is He.
Christ Jesus, mighty Lord,
God's only son, adored,
He holds the field victorious.

Though hordes of devils fill the land,
All threatening to devour us,
We tremble not! Unmoved, we stand;
They cannot overpower us.
Let this world's tyrants rage;
In battle we'll engage!
His might is doomed to fail,
God's judgment must prevail-
One little word subdues him.

God's Word forever shall abide,
No thanks to foes who fear it,
For God himself fights by our side
With weapons of the Spirit.
Were they to take our house,
Goods, honor, child or spouse,
Though life be wrenched away,
They cannot win the day;
The Kingdom's ours forever.

Yeah, this is the one that I know. -Maaya まあや 17:07, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm still not sure if we're supposed to put full texts of the hymn in Wikipedia. It seems that the rules discourage it. In any case, I believe this version is still protected by copyright, while the others are not. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 17:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott

Shouldn't this page: Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott be a part of this page? -Maaya まあや 17:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I think I've tidied it up. The spelling is wrong (eine Burg or ein' Burg, but not ein Burg). I've added the Bach categories to this article, and made that article a redirect here. — Gareth Hughes 18:18, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I happened to search 'feste Burg' and it was the first thing that came up, but I was here a few months ago and had looked at this particular article (A Mighty Fortress is Our God) and what surprised to see all the info that I remembered had disappeared. Glad to see that it hadn't, really. -Maaya まあや 23:10, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Composition Date

According to the German Wikipedia page for Ein' feste Burg ist unser Gott, this hymn was written and composed in 1529. This date would convey much more precisely when the hymn was created, and it would not be gathered from deductions about the manner in which hymns were published during this time period.

Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott ist ein Kirchenlied, das 1529 von Martin Luther geschrieben und komponiert wurde. [1] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dwspig2 (talk • contribs).

I'm not sure where the German encyclopedia gets the date. The info in this article comes directly from scholarly commentary in the cited sources. Since there is uncertainty in the literature, we need to reflect it in the article. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 00:37, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Earliest extant version?

The article cites John Julian, according to whom the earliest extant version is Andrew Rauscher's 1531 book; however, here they give an earlier date: "The oldest extant copy of the hymn is found in Form und Ordnung Gaystlicher Gesang und Psalmen, Augsburg, 1529 (Skaar, 1879; Nutzhorn, 1911)." Fact-checking needed. --Tgr 07:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

If a moment presents itself, it's worth checking. I tend to give Julian the benefit of a doubt, since his is the most respected hymn resource in the English language. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 11:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

According to Julian (John Julian, A Dictionary of Hymnology: Setting Forth the Origin and History of Christian Hymns of All Ages and All Nations rev. ed. London: John Murray, 1908, 323 the earliest printing was Klug's Gesang Buch, Wittenberg, 1529. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 18:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Some Suggestions from a Hymnologist

I asked a hymnologist what he thought of the article, he says:

I think most of what needs to be there is there. The Carlyle translation would be a nice addition. The Hedge is required. The history and musicology look good. How about more in the way of religious or theological interpretation? --CTSWyneken^(talk) 19:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

agree about the religious/theological interpretation. One concern I have -- I am afraid that a GA nom would be rejected because of the amount of primary text included. I would suggest moving the public-domain text to wikisource, and linking to it as necessary. Pastordavid 19:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC) (and welcome back)

Thanks! I think the limited time I've got for the near future is going to keep me more in side articles for awhile. On this one, I initially had the same question, but it appears that hymns are treated differently. If a few secs present themselves, I'll check the GA list for other hymn articles and see what I find. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 19:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Other Hymn Articles

I have yet to find a GA class hymn. What I am finding is that just about every hymn article contains the lyrics. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 19:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comparable to Poetry?

I think we may find similar approaches to this subject matter in case of poems. I just did a quick look and found I Wandered Lonely as a Cloud. It links to Wikisource for the text of the poem and discusses issues about it in the article itself. Sounds like a reasonable approach, until we find good GA guidelines, saying otherwise. Awolf002 22:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiSource

I have added three sister projects links to the public domain texts: the original German, the Hedge translation, and the Lutheran Church book translation. Pastordavid 16:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Great! I propose to drop the lengthy quotes under Lyrics and move the WikiSource reference into that section. We could then add some background to the translations in that section. Awolf002 02:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Pastordavid 19:48, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Infobox

Does anyone know if there is an infobox for hymns? If not, should we create one? Pastordavid 17:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. I only found a general song (= modern music industry song) infobox: Template:Song infobox. I would volunteer to create a Template:Hymn infobox derived form this template, if somebody could give me a list of necessary "items", like "first published date" or "metric signature" or whatever is needed. Awolf002 02:17, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I put up a first trial version of a Hymn infobox. Please comment or improve. Awolf002 18:05, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I have moved it to {{Infobox Hymn}} for consistency with other music infoboxes. (The song infobox template was recently moved to {{Infobox Song}}.) --PEJL 17:12, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The Lead

The lead to the article is a little weak. Anyone care to take a stab at improving it? Pastordavid 17:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Please DO NOT REMOVE the Hedge Rendition of the Hymn

I have been using it at my church!

I DO NOT understand your changes.

Pastor B Pena

You are misinterpreting the changes to this article. The text was not removed, but relocated to its proper place at the Wikisource project. Please, use the link in this article to see the Hedge translation. Awolf002 (talk) 14:54, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Song in german

Very nice article. I just want to write, that the song-file in which someone sings the hymn in german is not easy to understand, because the singer seams to be american and not german. So some words are not pronounced like germans do or the word-melody is not right, so that native speakers notice that the singer not understand what he is singing. Maybe it`s better to take another version of the hymn. I know, that the german wikipedia also takes this one, but that does not mean, that it`s perfect ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.143.110.200 (talk) 03:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and the link below the button says that the isometric version is the "more widely known arrangement," a claim which may be POV. Prove it. The Hedge translation is more prevalent in English-language hymnals, particularly in the United States, and its metrical pattern fits naturally with the non-isometric six-note line.

If old Martin's spirit is hovering around us, he is probably amazed to see us debating the details of his hymn. Finding "Ein' feste Burg" in Roman Catholic hymnals this side of Vatican II would probably take him on out.

Richard David Ramsey 00:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Concerning the "Modern English Translation"

I think that if a "Modern English Translation" is offered it should be discussed and worked on here first. Here are some problems I have with the one so recently put into the article:

A mighty fortress is our God,
A strong defense and weapon;(German: Ein' gute Wehr und Waffen, literal: "a good defense and weapon")
He helps us out of all distress,(German: Er hilft uns frei aus aller Not, literal: "he helps us freely out of every need" "all distress" is OK, but the "freely" is lost.)
That has us now afflicted. (German: Die uns jetzt hat betroffen, literal: "that now has befallen us")
The old evil foe,
With power now attacks, (German: Mit Ernst er's jetzt meint, literal: "with seriousness he now intends it")
Great strength and much guile,(German: Groß' Macht und viel List, literal: "great might and much cunning")
His dreadful weapons are, (German: Sein' grausam' Rüstung ist, literal: "his dreadful armament is")
On Earth he has no equal. (German: Auf Erd' ist nicht seins Gleichen, literal: "on earth is not his equal.")

With our powers we will fail, (German: Mit unsrer Macht ist nichts getan, literal: "with our might nothing is done")
We would be soon defeated; (German: Wir sind gar bald verloren, literal: "We are indeed soon lost")
But for us fights the chosen man, (German: Es streit't für uns der rechte Mann, literal: "the right man fights it for us")
Whom God Himself elected.
You ask, who that is? (German: Fragst du, wer der ist? Literal: "you ask, who he is?")
He’s called Jesus Christ,
The armies’ leading Lord, (German: Der Herr Zebaoth, literal: "the Lord of hosts")
There is no other God,
He holds the field forever. (German: Das Feld muss er behalten, literal: "He must hold the field")

And if the world should fill with woe, (German: Und wenn die Welt voll Teufel wär', literal: "Though devils should fill the world" "woe" is an error for "devils")
And would us all devour, (German: Und wollt' uns gar verschlingen, literal: and desire to devour us too")
We would not shake in mortal fear, (German: So fürchten wir uns nicht so sehr, literal: "we are not afraid so much")
Our hopes they can prevail. (German: Es soll uns doch gelingen, literal: "we shall even succeed")
The prince of the world, (German: Der Fürst dieser Welt, literal: "the prince of this world")
As grim as he may be, (German: Wie sau'r er sich stellt, literal: "as sour as he makes himself")
Still does us no ill, (German: Tut er uns doch nicht, literal: "he does nothing to us")
He comes, he is judged, (German: Das macht, er ist gericht't, literal: "it's over, he is judged")
One word and he’ll collapse. (German: Ein Wörtlein kann ihn fällen, literal: "a little word fells him." Luther intends to emphasize that it is a "little word," "Jesus," that causes Satan to fall. The translation: "a little word" should be here.)

The Word it shall forever stand, (German: Das Wort sie sollen lassen stahn, literal: "The Word they shall allow to stand")
And no thanks need be said; (German: Und kein'n Dank dazu haben, literal: "and no thanks have for it")
He stands by us for all our lives (German: Er ist bei uns wohl auf dem Plan, literal: "He is with us, no doubt, upon the plain")
With his great loving gifts. (German: Mit seinem Geist und Gaben, literal: "with his Spirit and gifts.")
Let them take your body, (German: Nehmen sie dein Leib, literal: "should they take your body")
Goods, honor, child, wife:
Send all to the wind, (German: Lass fahren dahin, literal: "let [them] go from here"
They have no worth in this world, (German: Sie haben's kein'n Gewinn: "they have no gain")
The Kingdom is ours forever. (German: Das Reich muss uns doch bleiben, literal: "The kingdom must then remain ours.")

This was the text of this "modern translation" without my challenges above:

MODERN ENGLISH TRANSLATION

Below is a translation in fairly contemporary language, made by the contributor. This is a largely literal rather than a poetic version. The rhyme scheme has not been reproduced, but the prosody of the original has been essentially retained. The nine-line verse divisions are also retained; this is true for the original punctuation as well, with the exception of a few commas added for clarity.

A mighty fortress is our God,
A strong defense and weapon;
He helps us out of all distress,
That has us now afflicted.
The old evil foe,
With power now attacks,
Great strength and much guile,
His dreadful weapons are,
On Earth he has no equal.

With our powers we will fail,
We would be soon defeated;
But for us fights the chosen man,
Whom God Himself elected.
You ask, who that is?
He’s called Jesus Christ,
The armies’ leading Lord,
There is no other God,
He holds the field forever.

And if the world should fill with woe,
And would us all devour,
We would not shake in mortal fear,
Our hopes they can prevail.
The prince of the world,
As grim as he may be,
Still does us no ill,
He comes, he is judged,
One word and he’ll collapse.

The Word it shall forever stand,
And no thanks need be said;
He stands by us for all our lives
With his great loving gifts.
Let them take your body,
Goods, honor, child, wife:
Send all to the wind,
They have no worth in this world,
The Kingdom is ours forever.

This "modern translation" is not bad, but it has some drawbacks. If we would put a literal translation in this article the one from The Lutheran Hymnal (#262) is the most literal I can imagine. Or we could use the one from volume 53 of the American Edition of Luther's Works:

1 Our God he is a castle strong,
A good mailcoat and weapon;
He sets us free from every wrong
That wickedness would heap on.
The old knavish foe
He means earnest now;
Force and cunning sly
His horrid policy,
On earth there's nothing like him.

2 ’Tis all in vain, do what we can,
Our strength is soon dejected.
But He fights for us, the right man,
By God himself elected.
Ask’st thou who is this?
Jesus Christ it is,
Lord of Hosts alone,
And God but him is none,
So he must win the battle.

3 And did the world with devils swarm,
All gaping to devour us,
We fear not the smallest harm,
Success is yet before us.
This world’s prince accurst,
Let him rage his worst,
No hurt brings about;
His doom it is gone out,
One word can overturn him.

4 The word they shall allow to stand,
Nor any thanks have for it;
He is with us, at our right hand,
With the gifts of his spirit.
If they take our life,
Wealth, name, child and wife—
Let everything go:
They have no profit so;
The kingdom ours remaineth. (LW 53, p. 285)

At least this is an authoritative translation, but we may have copyright problems in putting it into the text of the article.--Drboisclair (talk) 06:53, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

most popular translation?

Concerning the paragraph: "One English version is A mighty fortress is our God, a bulwark never failing and was translated by Frederick H. Hedge in 1853. A more popular English version is by Thomas Carlyle and begins A safe stronghold our God is still."

I don't know where the writer got the idea that Carlyle's translation is more popular. I've sung in various choirs and always the version in the first sentence above. And doesn't the English title of the article imply that people Google for "A mighty fortress" and not "A safe stronghold" ?:

And, by the way, I don't think the Catholic adoption of the hymn is "ironic", but a sign of modern open-mindedness toward Protestant traditions. The Catholic musicians that recommended it must have known perfectly well who Martin Luther was!

CharlesTheBold (talk) 02:05, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that "A more popular English version is by Thomas Carlyle.." needs to be substantiated or removed as POV. 65.96.86.24 (talk) 21:10, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Was it intended to be sung a A cappella?

A while back while doing a quick reading on the A capella article, it said that Martin Luther opposed instruments, so I posted this on the article's talk page, citing this article. The sources saying that he opposed them, i.e. “^ Martin Luther, Mcclintock & Strong's Encyclopedia Volume VI, page 762,” are off-line. When I used them in a Google search, I quickly got this, Bible Topics In The Christian Library, a site that seem to oppose instrumental music, but it had an interesting quote allegedly from Luther: "The organ in the worship of God is an ensign of Baal. The Roman Catholic borrowed it from the Jews." Now while any new information on this page could be used over there, and thus I might or might not be violating some WP rule on spamming–if such was the only reason. However, it might also be used here, assuming it would be alright to cite that while the hymn is often identified with organs and instrumentals, that Luther himself opposed such, assuming of course, if such is true and useful to the article. Thank you.174.137.237.65 (talk) 18:30, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

The Enigma Variations' Covert Theme

In 2014 during a concert in Diveyevo, the composer and conductor Adina Spire performed with the Bezdin Ensemble a simple countermelody solution proposing "A Mighty Fortress" as the hidden melody to Elgar's Enigma Variations. She credits Robert Padgett for this discovery which is presented in his eBook Elgar's Enigmas Exposed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RobertPadgett (talk • contribs) 18:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

To quote Jon Anderson (who was raised a Roman Catholic): "Luther, in time...". :) 83.254.154.164 (talk) 23:57, 8 June 2015 (UTC)