Talk:T-34

Factual errors in this article, and one notable omission?

143.167.143.33 (talk) 12:23, 22 September 2015 (UTC)The Soviet army was unhappy with the overall layout of the T-34 (later T-34/76) right from the start. The Christie-type (note: NOT Christie, the T-34 could NOT be run on its road wheels) suspension took up excessive internal space, the two-man turret was too cramped and made the tank essentially impossible to fight, the manufacture quality of many of the components varied from excellent to abysmal (for example the radiator). The later T-34/85 introduced a larger three-man turret, but many of the vehicles earlier flaws remained the same. There were several attempts to introduce changes to the basic design, the most notable being the T34M which included a switch to torsion-bar suspension, and the T-43 which introduced heavier armour; however the main impetus was a demand for a larger caliber gun and such programs were terminated.

The one omission I would like to make note of is that surely the T-34 must probably be the most destroyed tank of WW2!

Further I must point out one more error; "Its evolutionary development led directly to the T-54/55 series of tanks, and from there to the T-62, T-72, and T-90 tanks..." is simply not true. The design lineage of the T-34 began with the T-34/76 and ended with the T-34/85. The T-54/55 and T62 trace their ancestry back to the T-34s original replacement, the T-44 which was an entirely new design.

Andy Loates

I must differ with your last point. The T-44 was an obvious follow-on to the T-34-85 and shared quite a few components. The turret design, while 'new', was very close to the T-34-85 turret. The major difference was the transversely-mounted engine (same as the T-34) and transmission, and the torsion-bar suspension, both of which allowed for a lower hull. DMorpheus2 (talk) 19:05, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry but you are quite wrong. The T44 was a clean-sheet design; yes, it had a similar turret to the T34 but it doesn't mean anything. The M8 armoured car, T17 armoured car, and Medium Tank M3 all had very similar, almost identical turrets for their 37mm gun, but they were in no way related designs. You say "The T-44 was an obvious follow-on to the T-34-85 and shared quite a few components"; I say the early M1 Abrams was the obvious follow-on to the M60A3TTS, and shared similar components, including the main tank gun; does that mean the M1 was based on the M60? Would you say the Chieftain was an evolutionary development of the Centurion? No. They were clean-sheet designs, as was the T44, which was longer, wider, lower, and more powerful than the T34, and was, ironically given the Panthers genesis, designed to defeat this German tank.143.167.143.33 (talk) 13:57, 17 February 2016 (UTC)Andy L

Diesel more difficult to brew up then gasoline?

In the lead is claimed: "Its choice of diesel engine power extended its range, and made it more difficult to brew up when it was hit." without source. Diesel was not more difficul to brew up as gasoline. I don't know were that myth coming from. Check that link: Gas Tanks, Fires, and Explosions Kheynom (talk) 04:40, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Please wait for other opinions before making edits. A link is not a proxy for a consensual agreement. A blog is not a WP:RS Kheynom. You know that. Simon Irondome (talk) 04:55, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

In theory Diesel should be a tad harder to ignite than gasoline but once ignited Diesel burns more fiercely than Gasoline. Fuel fumes/vapors are always more dangerous than pure fuel, regardless of the fuel type. I don't think Diesel significantly (or at all) reduced the risk of fire in a tank, only placement and protection of the tanks help here.--Denniss (talk) 11:31, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

OK. A valid report is not a RS, jajaja. Taged as dubious, such claim is still unverifiable. Kheynom (talk) 15:32, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Its marked as a blog. You know what RS says about blogs. Irondome (talk) 15:34, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Seriously? The PIPE makes a claim with no source or whatever, but I need a source to remove that xxxx?? Something is wrong here. Kheynom (talk) 15:38, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

So stick a cite needed tag. And ask where PIPE got the info. There must be RS for it somewhere, or one that says its crap. Either way, if it can't be backed up it should go imo. Irondome (talk) 15:46, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

No, I remove it, unitl a source it placed. It can not be that one can add unfounded claims and got away scott free, while others have to grapple with it. That's not how it works and you know it Simon. Kheynom (talk) 15:51, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

There is a lot of unfounded claims creeping in. It happens over time Bogdan, you know we can't be here 24/7, and all eds can get sloppy sometimes. I would like to see a book source either confirming or denying it. Google books. There's probably a million books on there. Irondome (talk) 15:58, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on this Simon. Kheynom (talk) 16:31, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Kheynom's right. If he really thinks this is junk, it should be removed until cited by RS. FWIW, I've seen the claim made, but it appears to be a myth, & it's actually ammo storage that's the bigger cause of the "brew-ups". TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 18:54, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

crap wording thats been there a while

• I think it should be much more sober in tone. "Malignancies"? This is not an article about cancer. annihilation way too dramatic. I propose we reword. Simon Irondome (talk) 19:31, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the word "Malignancies" sounds wrong placed, but as I recall correctly, the 4th and 6th mechanised corps were completely destroyed. So, the wording "The annihilation of the Soviet tank force" might be chosen correctly. Kheynom (talk) 19:49, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Cool. I am going to make an edit now, and tell me what you think. Simon Irondome (talk) 19:53, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Destruction is the same as annihilation so that should be ok. Strategic I think is not the right term. Thats too broad. We are looking for something above tactical but below strategic. Operational fits ok. Also said that the early bugs were not fixed. That ok? Simon Irondome (talk) 20:04, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I checked Zaloga's book as given in the quote. It appears that its exactly the same as we have it here or had. I don't know, its up to you to decide. Zaloga speaks of "tactical and strategic" skills, and that the older tanks in the corps were in poor shapes aswell next to the new T-34. So I would replaced "affected early model T-34's at that time" with "affected Soviet tanks at that time" Or not? Kheynom (talk) 20:21, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Made a longer change to reliability of the Sov armour stock that you may like. I think operational is better, because its not a quote, and I think the IP was copying direct from Z. So this avoids too close paraphrasing which would be copyvio. Irondome (talk) 20:32, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Please, I did not demand such thing, nor do i like it. I meant they were in poor shape because of heavy attrition, not because of poor maintenance. Whatever, I don't know, if you think is correct so, leave it. Kheynom (talk) 20:45, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

• I made the original edit. I would think the reasoning is clear. There was a mixture of unencyclopedic terminology ("malignancy", "infected"), poor scope wording ("annihilation of the Soviet tank force": the tank forces took heavy losses, but were obviously not wiped out completely, even if individual components of that force were), and sloppy terminology ("strategic" is incorrect; the Germans were terrible at strategy, which is why they launched a two-front war and declared war on the US as sugar on top after being beaten the same way the first time around - "operational" is the correct terminology here to refer to the clear German superiority in mass, wide-front combat, as used in modern military writing). The rest was just removing references to other tanks because this is an article on the T-34, not Soviet armour and armoured warfare in general.

Kheynom: do you have any actual problems with the wording besides complaints regarding the IP address (relevant how?) or how long the original material was there for (also irrelevant)? Palindromedairy (talk) 20:48, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Wait, with "I made the original edit." you put the passage in or was that your edit with the IP:2001:56A:F106:6500:D58D:D2FA:F09C:45E8 Do you have something to hide or why hidding behind multiple IP's? Kheynom (talk) 20:57, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the original edit with the alphabet soup IP was by me. I used two accounts because I live a double life as a member of SMERSH, which is why I confessed to being both IPs in public as soon as it became troublesome, thus helping pursue my agenda not at all. Now that you have found me out, please watch for the black helicopters that should be arriving at your location shortly.

Or sometimes I'm at school and can't remember my account password, because Firefox saves that crap. Choose whichever explanation you prefer. Palindromedairy (talk) 21:05, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you are allowed to have multiple accounts or even IP's. I think you should be reported, for abusing it. Kheynom (talk) 21:10, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Good luck with your noble crusade to prevent internet service providers from assigning different IPs to different computers. I shall be on the sidelines, waving a cloth to signify my favour as you tilt with the dreaded Sir Windmill. Palindromedairy (talk) 21:16, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Sure, now its the fault of the provider. If you haven't noticed IP 2001:56A:F106:6500:D58D:D2FA:F09C:45E8 is from Kansas, U.S. while you other provided IP on your user profile: IP 94.232.219.141 is from Poland. Nuff said. Kheynom (talk) 21:23, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I do not live in Kansas, and have not posted from Kansas; I'm not even an American, so i have no idea why that IP reports as being from Kansas (nor do I much care, even if I'm willing to grant you the benefit of the doubt that you managed a proper IP trace). I am currently in Canada. As for Polish edits, I have spent whole summers in Poland on research and language training; the aircraft was invented quite some time ago. Yes, I began editing the T-34 article in Poland. If you are interested in a tiresome digression on the nature of the Polish government in exile during WWII, I can provide that.

I'm still waiting to hear how this increasingly Machiavellian scheme of mine to make tone edits to an article on an obsolete Soviet tank is supposed to play out. Especially the part where my public, uncoerced admission of making edits from two different computers somehow aids in my plans to take advantage of multiple accounts for nefarious purposes. Secret multiple identities don't work when they're not ... secret. Palindromedairy (talk) 22:00, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

• It is two different people Kheynom. IP/Palindromedairy has been a MILHIST member since 2013. All's good. No one is pissing about at least. Irondome (talk) 21:29, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

That's no excuse, nor an airtight alibi. Palindromedairy said he made this edit with the IP: 2001:56A:F106:6500:D58D:D2FA:F09C:45E8 from Kansas, while on his user page, he's saying the IP 94.232.219.141 belongs also to him. So a provider can not give a IP from Poland and Kansas at same time. He's using some software to hide his IP or somehting like that. Kheynom (talk) 21:39, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I said yesterday's edit from the crazy-long IP was mine, but you're the one saying it's from Kansas, not me. And as any quick look at the date logs will tell you, the last edit made using the Polish IP was in 2013. Pro-tip: 2013 and 2015 are different years. Palindromedairy (talk) 22:52, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

• For those of you breathlessly following along at home (or perhaps inclined to think Kheynom had a point in his bizarro sockpuppeting charge, or if some random account picks this up again), it turns out that Kheynom was actually a sockpuppet. Palindromedairy (talk) 02:12, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• Well is everyone happy with it now? Irondome (talk) 20:52, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. Thanks. Palindromedairy (talk) 20:56, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Lead Editing

I just changed the lead to clean up some recent edits but also to address a couple of creeping scope issues.

In short, I'm trying to keep the article as focused on the T-34 as possible. Multiple times over its life there have crept in various amounts of info on the Red Army's fighting abilities and Soviet production capabilities, which have in turn been enmeshed in descriptions of the tank so that all three become confusingly entangled. For example, I'd like to keep out details of how many were destroyed in the context of how effective a tank it was. Factual statements of production and losses make perfect sense, but attempting to judge the merits of the tank based on its combat performance cannot be done without drawing in the poor doctrine, lousy training, low morale, poor logistics, inexperience at high levels of command etc etc of the force that fielded it. A well-designed tank remains well-designed even if employed by idiots. I've restated the loss details to reflect this approach, merely stating that many were built and many were destroyed by the Germans, without attempting to draw any wider conclusions. The later sections do a good job of addressing concrete shortcomings with specific details that explain how the Germans were able to destroy so many, but of course that level of detail doesn't belong in a lead.

Similarly, I've separated the fact that the tank was constantly modified as the war went on to make it cheaper/easier to build from the fact that the Soviets fielded far more tanks than the Germans. You simply cannot make this kind of conclusion without mixing apples and oranges: Soviet industry was vastly more efficient than German industry in terms of mass production, and then there are the separate issues of lend-lease and the western bombing campaign against German industry, all of which further muddy the waters. In this light, it would be best to avoid much in the way of implication that the design of the T-34 itself was responsible for the fact that the Soviets had more of them than the Germans had other tanks without direct cites to back it up, as it should be obvious that this is but one unquantifiable factor in the much larger story of comparative Soviet/Nazi production. Palindromedairy (talk) 11:26, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you in principle, a lot of that is OT for the T-34. I'm concerned the simplification creates a misleading impression the tank itself is at fault. It may not be for this page to deal with issues of Red Army doctrine or Sov & German production, but it needs to be dealt with somewhere. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 19:41, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, but I feel the article itself, in the appropriate subsections, already does a fine job of tackling those issues. For example, the Operation Barbarossa section talks about the German discomfort in facing it, the powerful effect it had, and then details why and how so many were destroyed anyways. The T-34/85 section covers the comparing design philosophies of the Germans and Russians as they wrestled over the upgrade question. Palindromedairy (talk) 21:16, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. (I confess, I haven't read the whole page in awhile, so I'm not confident enough to disagree strongly. :) ) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 23:25, 17 December 2015 (UTC)