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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cla68 (talk | contribs) at 16:12, 19 February 2016 (→‎Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2015: comment). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2015

Intelligent design (ID) is the pseudoscientific view 

Please remove the word "pseudoscientific" from the opening sentence because that implies malicious intent on the part of the Intelligent design movement. They are using the same darwinian method as all other science does to propel their ideas within the academic and scientific communities. The only difference is in how one interprets the data or evidence. They are not making up the science, they are reading the same data as everyone else. Who ever edited that opening sentence may have a different philosophical view of the world but intelligent design is far from pseudoscientific, and the editor needs to read the data and evidence before hurling insults and stifling honest research. Secular science and the intelligent design movement both deal with the how. Where they differ is the darwinians stop at the how, where as the intelligent design movement goes one step further and asks WHY. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryan batke (talkcontribs)

 Not done We have had pointless discussions on this long enough Darwinian Ape talk 05:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ryan, current consensus on the talk page for this article is to have the word "pseudoscience" in the lede. If enough people come to this talk page and object, at around the same time, to that word, and therefore change the current consensus, then it can be removed. Consensus (numbers) trumps everything on Wikipedia except WP:BLP. Cla68 (talk) 15:58, 19 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Unless a significant number of those persons were meat puppets, or they failed to cite any relevant policy or sources. Consensus is not just numbers, see WP:NOTDEMOCRACY and Wikipedia:Consensus not numbers. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:04, 19 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sources and policy apply to the article body. Since the lede is a summary and subject to editorial judgement, consensus triumphs. And, accusing another editor of being a "meatpuppet" is a violation of WP:NPA as there is no WP policy prohibiting editors from agreeing with other editors, even if they have a low edit count or activity rate. Again, if the numbers support it, "pseudoscience" in the lede gets nixed. Those are the rules. Cla68 (talk) 16:08, 19 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, there is a way to keep "pseudoscience" from being removed from the lede if people keep trying to remove it without consensus to do so. All you have to do is put this article on your watchlist and check it every 15 minutes so you can revert anyone who tries to do so. You'll need to keep checking your watchlist every 15 minutes for the rest of your life, or for as long Wikipedia is around, to make sure. Otherwise, people might read this article without knowing that ID is a "pseudoscience" and all heck would break loose. Vigilance. Cla68 (talk) 16:12, 19 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Question

Troll bait, hatted in accordance with WP:TPG. . dave souza, talk 18:19, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Is there a proven scientific method that shows, unequivocally, that the universe, the planet earth and the living animal species therein have NOT been created by Intelligent Design? If so, what is it?Davidbena (talk) 22:05, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You have answered your own question there with your fifth and sixth words. Well done! --Pete (talk) 22:20, 27 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have undeleted this section, and suggest folks Talk be to discuss it reasonably re potential edits or else not really WP useful to TALK. In my case I will say I am aware of no cites to speak to this so the due WP:WEIGHT is not a mention. The lack of a published topic is not a reportable section by WP guidelines, it makes no sense to try and have article content talking about where there is nothing ... Markbassett (talk) 14:17, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not only does that make zero sense grammatically, it contradicts WP guidelines per WP:NOTAFORUM .Rwenonah (talk) 14:26, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Rwenonah - restating since you voiced it as not clear: on the thread of whether there had been 'proven scientific method' to show ID wrong I see no obvious discussion in cites so by WP:WEIGHT it is not due a mention. Markbassett (talk) 13:11, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@ Davidbena, your question is both malformed and contrary to talk page guidelines. The answer was perhaps best stated at Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District: "After a searching review of the record and applicable caselaw, we find that while ID arguments may be true, a proposition on which the Court takes no position, ID is not science." . . . dave souza, talk 13:31, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Dave souza, you're wasting your breath, as Davidbena did not make this question in good faith, and is not interested in discussing anything with anyone who does not mirror his own personal sentiments.--Mr Fink (talk) 15:37, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support hatting this section as it does not appear to be an attempt to improve the article nor does it appear to have any chance of becoming productive. Hy Brasil (talk) 16:14, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion by others is inappropriate

Hat off topic posts per WP:TPO
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

A section for the other topic of folks deleting others TALK just to remind folks that is contrary to WP:Talk page guidelines at WP:TPOC. If it's stupid y'all don't have to respond. If you want to say Off-topic, fine. If it's off-topic to extensive length the admins are guided to collapse it, not delete it. Markbassett (talk) 13:26, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"It is still common to simply delete gibberish, comments or discussion about the article subject (as opposed to its treatment in the article)", or of course maybe best to hat offtopic rants. . dave souza, talk 13:34, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
dave souza - *sigh* The thread topic here is deletions that were not appropriate to WP guidance, nor something to be ignored for what was trivially handleable within WP guidance and also easily just left lying alone. Only the DELETE seemed in need of any response, to undelete and instead move to more properly close topic. After a second delete it then seemed necessary to post actual TALK to point folks to WP guidance and deletions propriety. To the part of WP:TPOC you are looking at, that seems more about unreadable text but in any case ends "be sure to err on the side of caution." As to the maybe better to hat, well yes but this simply was not a hat collapse and had not even reached the heat or length of such WP:Refactoring talk pages around here. (Examples archive 83 here; and there. So it's a thread post pointing people to 'Deletion by others is inappropriate'. Delete it if it's in ARTICLE -- but not within TALK. Markbassett (talk) 15:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I delete these threads because I've seen and participated in enough of them to understand intimately that the Trolls For Jesus who start them ALWAYS start these threads in deliberate bad faith in order to deliberately antagonize other editors in protest and revenge over how both Science and Wikipedia are evil and stupid and wrong and evil and stupid because the articles at Wikipedia are not so pro-Creationism so as to border on genital suckling. None such threads that I've seen or participated in produced anything of note beyond bannings, blockings and bad feelings all around. And the guidelines at WP:NOTAFORUM, WP:SOAPBOX and WP:DENY all suggest to delete such inappropriate threads from talkpages. Furthermore, for the record, @Markbassett:, I do not delete these threads because I oppose the editors' point of view, I delete them because these threads are either inane rants, or have been made in deliberate bad faith in order to deliberately antagonize other editors. Not a single such thread I've seen or gotten tangled up in have ever produced anything productive whatsoever, especially since these editors refusal to understand even the most basic editing guideline or rudimentary etiquette routinely borders on gross incompetence.--Mr Fink (talk) 15:34, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, honestly, why is it inappropriate to delete a thread started by a Troll For Jesus who has absolutely zero intentions of discussing anything with anyone beyond deliberately antagonizing other editors and or making obscenely inane Ejaculations For Jesus?--Mr Fink (talk) 15:58, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Markbassett is probably right that it's better to let people vent or comment without deleting them. However, a benefit of deleting people's comments from here is that it likely makes them enemies of Wikipedia for life. At least, it's a benefit for those of us in the "hasten the day" camp regarding the future demise of WP who are happy to see people get treated that way. So, I say, delete away gents! I also understand that some of you likely don't interact much with real human beings outside the Internet or, for various reasons, are unable or unwilling to feel empathy for the feelings or opinions of others. If so, please be aware that there are consequences for your actions, some of which may or may not be what you intended. Cla68 (talk) 16:18, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Could you re-explain the benefits of allowing talkpages to be playpens for Trolls For Jesus and Assholes For Jesus? Or at least, bring up some benefit that actually is beneficial, as opposed to cautioning that we should coddle Trolls For Jesus and Assholes For Jesus lest they hate forever for not massaging their egos when they demand us to?--Mr Fink (talk) 16:28, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Mr. Fink. Cla68 (talk) 16:41, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Cla68:, can you please answer my request for clarification about the alleged benefits of coddling trolls who would abuse talkpages, please?--Mr Fink (talk) 16:49, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Cla68:, or should we assume that your sarcastic inane comment is solely intended to insult, if not insult and intimidate those editors who would want to keep trolls from shitting everywhere? I mean, that is why you refuse to clarify what the alleged benefits of coddling trolls who abuse talkpages in the hopes of transforming Wikipedia into anti-science religious propaganda For Jesus, right?--Mr Fink (talk) 17:30, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]