Talk:Velir

Velirs

Velirs are believed to be descendants of Yadu - today the descendants of Yadu are called Yadavas (also Ahirs, Konars, Idaiyar, Gowda, Gollas) However Vellalars think Velirs might have been Vellalars.

Does it mean Yadavas = Vellalars? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.245.16.100 (talk) 18:56, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Hockings

Rajkris, I went thru the book by Hockings (the only new reference you provided in the Vellalar article). The book is not available for viewing on google books, so doing a copy-paste for you (reproducing parts of page numbers you quoted).

Page 303:

The Vellalas live throughout Tamil Nadu. Different subcastes are located in different regions. For example, Mudaliar subcastes are prominent in Tondaimandalam (with

Page 304:

a concentration in Chinglepet), Choliya Pilli and Karkattar in Cholamandalam (concentrated in Thanjavur), Kongu Vellala or Kavundar in Kongumandalam (concentrated in Coimbatore), and Saiva Pillaimar, Karkattar, and Nangudi Vellala in Pandimandalam (concentrated in Madurai and Tirunelveli). In general, the first category of Vellala (who often call themselves vegetarian Vellala) predominate in the paddy-growing river-valley regions. Since the Vellala are heterogeneous and live in multicaste environments, an estimate of the population is difficult. Current censuses do not provide statistics by caste. In some of the British period census reports, caste figures were given for some districts, and the Vellala constituted about 10 percent of the population. However, the criteria for defining Vellala seems to vary and there is no clear basis for interdistrict comparison.

Most Vellala subcastes share broadly similar origin myths that stress their links with the soil as agriculturists (as contrasted with artisans), their origin in the Ganga (Gangetic valley) and migration from northern to southern India during the distant past, and their close relationship with the three ancient Tamil dynasties — Chera, Chola, and Pan dya — in spite of the Vellalas' ineligibility for kingship. There is fairly strong literary and archaeological evidence linking core Vellala subcastes with a group of chieftains called velir., the earliest references are found in the sangam literature (first to third century AD). Until about the fourteenth century AD the velalar were prominent in the Tamil polity, economy, and society, and they have been linked with virtually all the major dynasties.

[…] Depending on the region, the Vellala may be the dominant caste, may share dominance with another caste, or may be a minority. In villages along the river basins, where wet rice cultivation is prominent, the dominant caste is often Vellala (of either category). Within a village, each Vellala subcaste, as indeed every subcaste, tends to live in a separate street. In larger villages and towns, this pattern gets blurred....

Note that Paul Hockings does not provide the literary and archaeological evidences, which link "core Vellala subcastes" with velir. Hockings mentioned Vellalar subcastes, even described their living pattern, yet Hockings does not state which are "core Vellala subcastes". Hockings notes Vellalars are heterogeneous, with varying criteria defining them. Yet instead of providing actual evidence linking them to Velir, he goes on (instead), to refer to sangam literature, assuming Sangam period Velirs and later-day Vellalars are the same. To handle this and other modern historians who merely repeat the Vellalar-Velir connection, made by medieval / modern historians, am pasting content from some sources (not available on google books) so you can also read them.--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 04:57, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

This is your pov. This ref is a proper ref and I will add it. If you don't agree just report it. Note: I never stated that the whole nowadays vellalar come from the Velir.Rajkris (talk) 22:41, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Another ref: Proceedings of the Thirty-First International Congress of Human Sciences in Asia and North Africa, Tokyo-Kyoto, 31st August-7th September 1983, Volume 2, page 1015 [1], "Champakalakshmi: Related comments, I have an explanation for the reason why they became a landed community in Tamilnadu, if we go back to Sangam period, we have large number of Velir clans who were the large landowners. [Ramesh questioned the equation of Vellalas with Velirs, and Champakalakshmi affirmed their relation. Mahadevan supported Champakalakshmi quoting a Nakshinar's commnentry. Jha and Champakalakshmi agreed in recognizing the importance of muvendavelan in chola period".Rajkris (talk) 22:42, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Velirs lesser chiefs under Vendor/Ventar (kings)

The content below has been taken from 3 sources all of which describe the same points.

• Social Scientist. v 15, no. 171-72 (Aug-Sept 1987) p. 73. [2], and
• Indian History Congress, (1987). Proceedings - Indian History Congress , p.52.
• Champakalakshmi, Radha (1996). Trade, ideology, and urbanization: South India 300 BC to AD 1300, p.31. Oxford University Press.

Evidence of a broad dual division of society is provided by the references to the Cānrōr or Uyarndōr and the Iḷicinar. The position of dominance was occupied by the chiefs/kings and the landed local elite (Velir, Kilavan or Kilan, talaivan, entai) collectively referred to as Uyarndōr and Cānrōr (the superior ones) while the lower category generally termed as Iḷicinar were engaged in various 'inferior' activities or subsistence production. It is only in the medieval commentaries on Sangam works that references to the superior Velalas (land owning group) and inferior Velala (cultivators) occur together with the Velir chiefs as the dominant land owning groups controlling fairly large areas of agricultural land indicating that stratification based on land distribution and control was believed to have existed even in this early period. The Velir are described in the Sangam works as lesser chiefs, pastoral-cum-agricultural, but next in importance only to the Vendor as a dominant socio-political group and as patrons of the Tamil poets.

--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 05:03, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Two types of Velalas

Content below is quoted from 2 source (both are by same author and quote the same sentences).

• Subrahmanian, N., (1996). Śaṅgam polity: the administration and social life of the Śaṅgam Tamils, p.300.
• Subrahmanian, N., (1993). Social and cultural history of Tamilnad, Volume 1, p.258.

The Velalas, especially the agriculturists, were a very important limb of society. Nachchinarkkiniyar recognizes two types of Velalas; the superior and the inferior. The superior Velalas owned land and directed agricultural operations, while the latter were actually cultivators working on the farm land as labourers personally engaged in tilling, sowing and reaping. The former had the right of marriage with the royal families, and some of them, also known as Velirs, were chieftains of some importance.

--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 05:15, 18 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

References

This is regarding references provided for this sentence:

Extolled in Sangam literature for their charity and truthfulness, they were the ancestors and head of the modern Tamil Veḷḷālar caste.

I went thru cited page(s) for the first three references. They describe the life and times of Velirs. Did not find them saying the Velirs are ancestors of current Vellalar community. The first reference (in the cited pages 52-53) mentions the homophones of Velirs and phonemic relationship of belluru (Kannada), vellalan (Tamil) and vellalar (Malayalam). It does not say Velirs are ancestors of Vellalars. The second reference, "Heritage of Tamils" says only this on the Velir in page 269: "They were called Ulavar. Yerin valnar and Kalamar. Apart from them there was a class of landlords who employed others to work on their fields. They were known as Uluvittanpar. The most important among these landlords were the 'Velir' or the chieftains of the agricultural population". This book does not mention the Vellalars. The third reference, "Political Change and Agrarian Tradition in South India" from page 63 to 67 describes the times of Cholas and Pandyas with a Pandya importing and settling 48,000 good families from Kanchipuram into Pandya land, and further describes the Nankudi Velir who lived in 14 villages Srivaikunham Taluk. The book does say the Velir are ancestors of Vellalars. For the fourth reference "The early history of the Vellar Basin" I was not able to view the cited page 21.

Rajkris, please reproduce sentences verbatim from the given references where the authors say Velirs are ancestors of the current Vellalar community.

Thanks.--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 00:47, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

I will check. Don't worry I have other sources states that & I will add them asap.Rajkris (talk) 21:26, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh please, your response in insipid. Three of four sources do not support your claims. Why are you still using those sources to pass off your claims?? When will you check and when will you add? You can add your sources / content without deleting content I contributed. Note: I deleted only unsubstantiated stuff not supported by references from your contributions. Then again, if this leads to edit wars, arbitration is the only way to deal with this.--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 22:18, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

some refs:

[3] page 142: "Nannan belonged to the highest and prestigeous clan of Velir whose descendants are considered as the present days Vellalas"

[4]: page 36 "Velirs or Vellalas were landed agricultural aristocrats."

Encyclopedia of world cultures, Volume 3 By David Levinson page 304[5], [6]: "There is fairly strong literary and archeological evidence linking core Vellala subcastes with a group chieftains called Velir,...".Rajkris (talk) 22:32, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Mahadevan source

This is regarding Iravatham Mahadevan source used in the introductory sentence:

The Vēḷir ([வேளிர்] Error: {{Lang-xx}}: text has italic markup (help)) were a royal house of minor dynastic kings and aristocratic chieftains in Tamilakam in the early historic period of South India.

Iravatham Mahadevan is again used as a source for this sentence in the History section:

According to Tamil tradition & scholars, the Velirs came to south from the city of Dwarka in north India under the leadership of the Vedic sage Agastya just after the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilization and might belong to the Yadu Kshatriya clan. However, it is noted that they were described as Aryan immigrants from northern part of India who might be a part of earlier Kuru Kingdom civilization that flourished in North India.

Rajkris, as pointed out to you earlier on my talk page, the paper by Iravatham Mahadevan does not refer to the current Vellalar community. The terms Ventar-Velir-Velalar were used for land-owning classes or chieftains, that's all. Hope that is not too hard to understand even now. It is not correct to use Mahadevan's quote partially. Change the sentence to the full quote: "The Ventar-Velir-Velalar groups constituted the ruling and land-owning classes in the Tamil country since the beginning of recorded history and betray no trace whatever of an Indo-Aryan linguistic ancestry". If you wish to prove the current Vellalar community descended from the Velir, there is a lot more research you need to do, in order to provide appropriate citations.

You have used the intro source (Mahadevan's paper) as a reference in history section again, to say they "might belong to Yadu Kshatriya clan". That is incorrect. Read the page you cited again (page 16). The term Kshatriya is not used. So delete the word "Kshatriya" and quote properly from the source. Read carefully what Mahadevan says (on page 16) says "..it is more plausible to assume that the Yadavas were the Aryanised descendants of an original non-Aryan people than to consider the Tamil Velir to have descended from the Indo-Aryan speaking Yadavas. As M. Raghavaiyangar (2004: 27), has pointed out vel, means ‘one who performs a sacrifice’ (namely a ‘priest’). The Agastya legend itself can be re-interpreted as non-Aryan and Dravidian even in origin and pertaining to the Indus Civilisation."

--Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 01:30, 17 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Velirs

The Velirs of recorded history had their most famous king in Nannan or Nandan, who was also the greatest king of the Mushika or Kolathiri or Chirakkal Royal Family, for both the Nannans are one and the same. The Nannan referred to in the only recorded Sangam Period of Tamil literature of 400 BC (?1600 BC?) to 400 AD was the then Velir King and had his capital at Ezhimala which was the capital of the Mushika Family for several centuries. Could anybody add links to articles that throws more light on the Velirs and the Mushika being the same or at least related to each other? I am adding links that I think are pertinent in the Main article.

Velirs are Vellalars

Sources: 1. Tamil Studies: Essays on the History of the Tamil People, Language, Religion, and Literature By Muttusvami Srinivasa Aiyangar 2. Heritage of the Tamils: Education and Vocation - Page 269 by Shanmuga Velayutham Subramanian, Ca. Vē Cuppiramaṇiyan̲, Vē. Irā Mātavan̲ - Education - 1986 - 506 pages 3. Racical Synthesis in Hindu Culture - Page 156. 4. The Early History of the Vellar Basin, with Special Reference to the ... - Page 21 by M. Arokiaswami - Vellalas - 1954 - 166 pages 5. Peoples of India - Page 29 by William Harlen Gilbert - Ethnology - 1944 - 86 pages

Irungkovel, Ma-Vel Ewi are all vellalars "The Tamils Eighteen Hundred Years Ago By V. Kanakasabhai".

Redirecting page to Vellalars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mayank12 (talk • contribs) 17:06, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Velirs are chiefs of Vellalars

Hey,

Velirs are the chiefs of the Vellalars. Review the references below.

• Vel-Pari, Ma-Vel-Ewi are all Vellalars.--->Tamils Eighteen Hundred Years Ago [7]

• "Vellalar of the Tamil Country (descendants of the Velir)"---->Journal of Tamil Studies By International Association of Tamil Research [8]

• Tamil Studies: Essays on the History of the Tamil People, Language, Religion, and Literature By Muttusvami Srinivasa Aiyangar

• Heritage of the Tamils: Education and Vocation - Page 269 by Shanmuga Velayutham Subramanian, Ca. Vē Cuppiramaṇiyan̲, Vē. Irā Mātavan̲ - Education - 1986 - 506 pages

• Racical Synthesis in Hindu Culture - Page 156. (Velir or Vellalar tribes)--->[9].

• The Early History of the Vellar Basin, with Special Reference to the ... - Page 21 by M. Arokiaswami

There are more references if you're not convinced. But I'm going with the academic scholars. Mayank12 (talk) 22:55, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for arguing with citations but dont delete articles before you reach WP:Consensus, I will counter your arguments with time. No need to panic and get into a revert war. This article nees to saty because thsi the talk page wehere talk about keeping it or redirecting happnens, not in any persons user talk page. Thanks Taprobanus (talk) 14:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Another by Ramachandra Dikshitar

"The Velir or Velala tribes"--->Studies in Tamil Literature and History

By V. R. Ramachandra Dikshitar[10].

Mayank12 (talk) 22:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I have now gone through number of references, that Velalar are Velir is just one point of view. You may not like i, I have cite that syas Velalas are actually slaves of Velir kings. Other views are that they are from Belgaum or Velkramam in Karnataka or Calukaya origin, claimed Yadava origin or simply the nmae is derived from Vel meaning to win over and just a generic name for petty cheifs. So I think this option that Velir=Velalar is just one opinion not the only opinion out there. I will with time now improve the Velir aticle with proper citations and I have no intensions of wasting my time with caste realated articlse as they deteriote as soon as they are written. Taprobanus (talk) 22:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Dirks: Velir as a medieval Vellalar title

I have a copy of The Hollow Crown by Dirks on my desk right now. Nowhere on page 149 does it support our present statement that "Vēḷir became a title inherited by Veḷḷālar chiefs of the medieval period". Has someone got the page number wrong? - Sitush (talk) 08:27, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Here is what is said by the author page 149 [11]: "Stein (1980) disputes Arokiaswami's claims that the Irukkuvels were Vellalars on the basis of later dominance of Kallars and Maravars in the whole area, but the congruence of Irukkuvel titles (velir, velar, muventavelar) with titles used by the Vellalars of the area today and the coincidence of the dates of Irukkuvel dominance with the time sequences implied in the many origin stories, copper plates and palm leaf manuscripts all of which attribute initial settlement and leadership in Konatu to Vellalars may suggest otherwise."

Based on this ref, what can tell is: nowadays Vellalars use the same titles as the Irukkuvel who lived in the area during Vellalar dominance. This suggest that the Irrukuvel were Vellalars. Fyi, the Irukkuvels are one the famous Velir clans [12], they were among the top of the Tamil nobility, just below the Tamil kings.Rajkris (talk) 22:04, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you've quoted the same passage that I read in my copy of the book. You'll note that it is speculative and that it says "... titles used by the Vellalars of the area today" (my bolding). Today is not the medieval period & we all know that Indian social groups just love to take on titles of yesteryear in order to boost their position. - Sitush (talk) 13:16, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes very true but the author does mention other arguments and tell that all of them may suggest that Irukkuvels Velirs chieftains belonged to the Vellalar caste.

My concern is that the article previously contened a sentence telling that the Velirs were the ancestors and/or head of the Vellalar caste. This has now been removed whereas number of shcolars consider that there is a (some kind of) connections between the Velir chieftains & and the Vellalar caste. Currently there is no scholars who deny this connection. A few of them assert that the etymological connection between Velir & Vellalar is unconvincing but they recognize that the Vellalar are probably the descendants of the Velir.Rajkris (talk) 22:31, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

In that case, we need to say this using sources that say it. Dirks doesn't: he speculates and doesn't make the statement that we claim he makes. - Sitush (talk) 22:36, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Ok fine, I'll do that.Rajkris (talk) 22:51, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Misuse of footnotes

I've just removed three footnotes from the lead section. We do not include commentary in articles, period, and at least one of these amounts to synthesis/original research. If there is doubt about something then make that doubt explicit in the article (with sources), raise it here on the talk page or insert an inline note using the format <!-- your comment here -->. Another alternative is the {{clarify}} template, although I doubt that would be appropriate in the present situation. - Sitush (talk) 08:35, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Alright Sitush. Since you are involved now, I'd rather raise issues in the talk page instead of nowiki format. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 06:55, 21 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Journal of Tamil Studies

The Journal of Tamil Studies is not often cited in papers hosted at JSTOR but I have no reason (yet!) to consider it unreliable. A lot of such journals are in fact unreliable - for example, the rubbish produced under various pseudo-official auspices in Odisha & much of what is written by the one-man band that calls itself the Tamil Arts Academy - but this one may be ok.

There are numerous references to it in our article but they are poor - no author name, no article title etc. Can anyone provide me with a copy of the article(s) that are cited as "International Institute of Tamil Studies, 1970. Journal of Tamil Studies, Volume 2", please? Pages include 185 & 220, so I think we need to see the entire range. - Sitush (talk) 08:44, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

What I can say is this article (from IITS, 1970, Journal of Tamil Studies) seem to have original contents and have not been reproduced by any other academical sources till now.Rajkris (talk) 22:11, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it matters whether or not the article itself has been cited. If it is published by a reliable peer-reviewed academic journal then that is sufficient. However, I would like to get a feel for the thing and, of course, ensure that its contents are not being taken out of context. - Sitush (talk) 13:17, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

My concern with this article is (if I don't make mistake) it is telling that Pandya kings are linked to the Maravar and/or Kallar which is the not the case. Maravar, Kallars served as soldiers the different tamil royal dynasties as well as the Vellalar gentry (see dircks book).Rajkris (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Hello Sitush, Yes this journal is not available at JSTOR. As for reliability, I too cannot say for or against it. In case you want to delete content from it, its fine by me. It is tough to see and get the entire range of page numbers using google books. At the most I can see a few lines in snippet view. Then when I type in the preceding few lines with double quotes in google books, it will show me the next few lines. That way I can get maximum of 3 paragraphs from a single page; which I copy and paste. However, I will try my best to get a physical copy of the book. Bests. --Mayasutra [= No ||| Illusion =] (talk) 06:51, 21 December 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Velir/Vellalar connection

This is my proposition for this part:

Vēḷir became a title used by nowadays Veḷḷālar. Strong literary and archeological evidence links core Vellalar subcastes with the Velir chieftains.

Ref 9: page 149 [13]: "Stein (1980) disputes Arokiaswami's claims that the Irukkuvels were Vellalars on the basis of later dominance of Kallars and Maravars in the whole area, but the congruence of Irukkuvel titles (velir, velar, muventavelar) with titles used by the Vellalars of the area today and the coincidence of the dates of Irukkuvel dominance with the time sequences implied in the many origin stories, copper plates and palm leaf manuscripts all of which attribute initial settlement and leadership in Konatu to Vellalars may suggest otherwise."

Ref 10: Encyclopedia of World Cultures page 304 [14]: "There is fairly strong literary and archaeological evidence linking core Vellala subcastes with a group of chieftains called velir."

Ref 11: Proceedings of the Thirty-First International Congress of Human Sciences in Asia and North Africa, Tokyo-Kyoto, 31st August-7th September 1983, Volume 2, page 1015 [15]: "Champakalakshmi: Related comments, I have an explanation for the reason why they became a landed community in Tamilnadu, if we go back to Sangam period, we have large number of Velir clans who were the large landowners. [Ramesh questioned the equation of Vellalas with Velirs, and Champakalakshmi affirmed their relation. Mahadevan supported Champakalakshmi quoting a Nakshinar's commnentry. Jha and Champakalakshmi agreed in recognizing the importance of muvendavelan in chola period".

Rajkris (talk) 22:27, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Source requests

Please can someone provide copies of the following sources that have recently been added to the article. I am concerned about unintentional misrepresentation due to Rajkris not reading around the pages that are cited and relying on snippet views. (Sorry, Rajkris, but you have a long history of doing this & I'll likely be challenging anything and everything that I cannot see - the alternative is simply to remove the stuff as being seemingly dependent on snippet views). Thanks.

• Venkatasubramanian, T. K. (1986). Political Change and Agrarian Tradition in South India. Delhi: Mittal Publications. pp. 63–67.
• Sastri, K. A. Nilakanta (1955). The Colas. Madras University historical series. Vol. 9. University of Madras. p. 49.
• Hockings, Paul (1992). Encyclopedia of world cultures. p. 304.
• Yamamoto, Tatsurō (31st August-7th September 1983). Proceedings of the Thirty-First International Congress of Human Sciences in Asia and North Africa, Tokyo-Kyoto, Volume 2. p. 1015. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

- Sitush (talk) 10:28, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Concerning Hockings, Mayasutra provided the content (but I could not check myself):

The Vellalas live throughout Tamil Nadu. Different subcastes are located in different regions. For example, Mudaliar subcastes are prominent in Tondaimandalam (with

Page 304:

a concentration in Chinglepet), Choliya Pilli and Karkattar in Cholamandalam (concentrated in Thanjavur), Kongu Vellala or Kavundar in Kongumandalam (concentrated in Coimbatore), and Saiva Pillaimar, Karkattar, and Nangudi Vellala in Pandimandalam (concentrated in Madurai and Tirunelveli). In general, the first category of Vellala (who often call themselves vegetarian Vellala) predominate in the paddy-growing river-valley regions. Since the Vellala are heterogeneous and live in multicaste environments, an estimate of the population is difficult. Current censuses do not provide statistics by caste. In some of the British period census reports, caste figures were given for some districts, and the Vellala constituted about 10 percent of the population. However, the criteria for defining Vellala seems to vary and there is no clear basis for interdistrict comparison.

Most Vellala subcastes share broadly similar origin myths that stress their links with the soil as agriculturists (as contrasted with artisans), their origin in the Ganga (Gangetic valley) and migration from northern to southern India during the distant past, and their close relationship with the three ancient Tamil dynasties — Chera, Chola, and Pan dya — in spite of the Vellalas' ineligibility for kingship. There is fairly strong literary and archaeological evidence linking core Vellala subcastes with a group of chieftains called velir., the earliest references are found in the sangam literature (first to third century AD). Until about the fourteenth century

AD the velalar were prominent in the Tamil polity, economy, and society, and they have been linked with virtually all the major dynasties.

[…] Depending on the region, the Vellala may be the dominant caste, may share dominance with another caste, or may be a minority. In villages along the river basins, where wet rice cultivation is prominent, the dominant caste is often Vellala (of either category). Within a village, each Vellala subcaste, as indeed every subcaste, tends to live in a separate street. In larger villages and towns, this pattern gets blurred....

Concerning Yamamoto, I only have this snaphot: [16].

Rajkris (talk) 00:27, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Ouch. It doesn't look good, does it? I'll see if I can find more, otherwise this lot are likely to have to go, except maybe stuff related to Hockings. - Sitush (talk) 17:41, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

It is a snippet view but it contains the paragraph which deals with Velir/Vellalar connection. Here is another, but again a snippet view:

Boundary Walls: Caste and Women in a Tamil Community by Kamala Ganesh, 1993 [17] page 49: "However, it is possible to identify in selected areas, core Vellala groups with a fairly continous & traceable history: a broad consensus link these groups with Velir: powerful chieftains of the Sangam period (1st - 3rd century AD)." Rajkris (talk) 23:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)