Jump to content

Talk:Acupuncture

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2001:56a:75b7:9b00:441:a41b:9784:50f1 (talk) at 03:52, 7 October 2016 (→‎JzG's revert: comment). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Vital article

GERAC trials

The GERAC trials should be incorporated into this article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_acupuncture_trials ).

Chinese research on TCM

Alexbrn recently reverted my edit to this page in which I added this review as a source for the statement "A 2016 systematic review and meta-analysis found that certain modes of acupuncture were effective for postoperative pain." Alexbrn argued in his edit summary that "Plos One & Chinese" are "not reliable for such bold claims". [1] I disagree, as PLoS one is a respected open-access journal, not a predatory one, and it has an impact factor. Also, the authors of this review are affiliated with Taiwanese universities, and according to the BBC, Taiwan "has for all practical purposes been independent since 1950," so it's not part of China. Thus I think that concerns about Chinese research on acupuncture being biased doesn't apply here. Everymorning (talk) 20:17, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I read the review, and looked over the 13 studies they included. These are all tiny studies, with inconsistent controls, inconsistent methods, and half of them have no or improper blinding. It's a crap review of crap studies and should not be included. Someguy1221 (talk) 21:51, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

::This comment doesnt constitute a reason to remove the review per WP:OR. Everymorning (talk) 23:20, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OR restricts which content can be included in an article. It does not restrict how decisions are made on the talk page. In fact, it would be impossible to have a discussion about the reliability of a source or significance of a viewpoint without injecting some kind of opinion or original research. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:28, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) It's not clear why you mention WP:OR which is a policy regarding article content. WP:OR is not intended to stop editors from thinking, and there is a whole noticeboard (WP:RSN) where people offer opinions on the quality of sources. Articles should not contain every comment ever published on a topic. Johnuniq (talk) 23:30, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies, I should have known better than to cite OR incorrectly. However, in terms of the reliability of any source, there should be little doubt that peer-reviewed systematic review/meta-analysis > Wikipedia editor's opinion. If you think it is an unreliable source, you should cite a policy pertaining to the size of the studies in a meta-analysis that says they have to be big enough (or whatever your reason(s) is/are). Everymorning (talk) 00:16, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
WP:COMMONSENSE, WP:IAR. If a paper is obvious shit, we shouldn't let it occupy space in an article because we're standing on principle. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:36, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Or WP:REDFLAG. Exceptional claims need mutiple high quality sources (not one suspect one). Any claim that acupuncture is effective is just such an exceptional claim. Alexbrn (talk) 02:44, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

While Acupuncture is certainly not recognized as an effective practice universally, and personally I don't believe it to be a reliable medical intervention of any sort; said study cited by user:Everymorning was published in a reliable peer-reviewed journal. Thus, we must report it accordingly, despite personal opinions about the study.Trustinskepticsm (talk) 01:19, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In fact PLoS One has a bit of a reputation for harbouring cranky research (Beall calls it a "a lonely and un-selective digital repository more than a scholarly publication"[2]), and we know that studies on TCM out of China are suspect (Taiwan is independent of the PRC but it is China). So no, this is not a reliable source for assertions about biomedicine. Alexbrn (talk) 01:59, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We should be very careful not to be conducting a second peer-review of our own: "Editors should not perform a detailed academic peer review. Do not reject a high-quality type of study due to personal objections to the study's inclusion criteria, references, funding sources, or conclusions." as per WP:MEDASSESS. Cheers! 19:45, 24 September 2016 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jayaguru-Shishya (talk • contribs)

It's not a question of "personal" objections, but of accepted knowledge that this is not a good source for such a bold claim, as has been much discussed in the past. Be reminded that discretionary sanctions apply here. Alexbrn (talk) 19:52, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Who is the "we" that "know" Chinese research on TCM is suspect? I'll remind YOU that discretionary sanctions are in place here, since you are giving special dispensation to your personal assessment of research based on author's ethnicity or country of origin. "Accepted knowledge" - thats not how science works, you don't get to assume what accepted knowledge is.Herbxue (talk) 15:55, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The country of origin issue for TCM was originally discussed here, where the result was that it would not be discussed in MEDRS itself but would be codified in the MEDRS FAQ. A subsequent attempt to override this by amending MEDRS was ultimately rejected via the RfC here. Sunrise (talk) 18:12, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, let's not "go again" on this matter. Alexbrn (talk) 20:23, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately we have to because we are interpreting the outcome differently - the rfc was closed because the consensus as I read it was "no one would ever reject a source based on ethnicity or country of origin, so there is no need to explicitly state you can't do that" whereas you appear to read the outcome to mean "go ahead and reject sources based on country of origin".Herbxue (talk) 20:53, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to re-open the matter, this is not the place. However I think doing that would be disruptive. Alexbrn (talk) 21:24, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnicity/nationality issues aside, I think this thread is being unfair on PLoS ONE. There have been a couple of high-profile incidents of "cranky research" slipping though peer-review, but this is true of many journals including Nature and Science. Beall' opinions on PLoS ONE are at the harsher end of the spectrum. PLoS ONE has published plenty of perfectly acceptable research articles, many of which are cited elsewhere on Wikipedia. This meta-review (which I haven't read yet) has passed peer-review, it isn't WP:PRIMARY research and it is published in a high-profile journal (albeit one with a wonky business model) that is included in any academic database you care to mention and has an impact factor, yada yada, etc. If PLoS ONE "having a reputation" is enough to exclude this source, then are we going to purge the rest of Wikipedia? PLoS ONE accepts post-publication comments on articles and in the six months since publication nobody has thought to criticise the methods of this paper by posting a comment. I don't think doubts over the journal are sufficient to exclude this. Let's discuss this sensibly and not shut down the debate. PS: Acupuncture is claptrap (just so you know where I stand) Famousdog (c) 07:16, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Did I get this correct? Alexbrn reverted the addition of the article once[3], and soon after reverted it once more[4]. After that, he notified me of the 'discretionary sanctions imposed upon the article, although he just edit warred himself? I expect a self-revert, and that we can continue the discussion here at the Talk Page. I am not really familiar with the reasons why Alexbrn wants to reject this article. Cool down guys and discuss, cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 12:37, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing to discuss. Neutrality is a non-negotiable pillar of Wikipedia and we ain't toppling it to boost acupuncture. This has been discussed to death and community consensus is wide and clear. Check back at Wt:MED if in doubt. Alexbrn (talk) 12:39, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Neutrality in this case would be following MEDRS. Now, if you want to reject the source based on what someguy1221 said above, then fine, we can discuss the actual quality of the source. But your reasons for rejecting this source are not legit.Herbxue (talk) 17:01, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Jayaguru-Shishya, this is not a high-quality source. The WP:REDFLAG policy provides guidance on what to omit, and that ties into WP:WEIGHT and WP:FALSEBALANCE. Remember that Wikipedia is not neutral. Manul ~ talk 18:25, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Acupuncture. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

checkY An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:51, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reviews

In order to qualify as reliable a review needs to do two things:

  1. Be published outside China by authors not associated with Chinese institutions, and draw mainly on studies which meet the same criteria. It is well documented by now that the Chinese have a massive problem with research. Not only are virtually all their acupuncture studies positive ([5]), but in fact large numbers of Chinese studies on reality-based medicine are actually fraudulent ([6]). At this point any Chinese-dominated work on acupuncture, and arguably any biomedical topic, should be ignored on Wikipedia. If the finding is robust then a paper free from the Chinese problem will become available.
  2. Exclude, or at least explicitly separate, electroacupuncture. We know by now that it does not matter where you put needles, or whether you actually insert them or not, and we know that there is no evidence for the existence of qi or meridians. However, we also know that electrical stimulation of nerves has a definite effect. Mixing electroacupuncture with acupuncture is thus extremely misleading, since electroacupuncture is merely a mechanism for delivering electrical nerve stimulation and is probably indistinguishable from TENS other than in its higher chance of causing infection.

We've had the conversation about Chinese studies before, and I think the problem of mixing electroacupuncture with normal needling has also been mentioned before. Guy (Help!) 15:37, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

JzG's revert

JzG recently reverted my addition of this meta-analysis, arguing in his edit summary that it was "Yet another crappy Chinese study" and that "the paper freely admits the studies are junk." Neither of these seems to be true AFAICT: for example, as I noted in my edit reverting JzG's revert, contrary to his claim that this meta-analysis is somehow "Chinese", the authors are affiliated with 2 different South Korean universities. Also, the abstract (I don't have access to the full text) does not say that the included studies are "junk", only that "there were high levels of heterogeneity in several of the measured parameters" and that more well-designed studies are needed. This can be addressed by including a mention of the limitations of the meta-analysis (which I included). JzG's argument for removing this source seems to rely on a flagrant misrepresentation of it, which is why I restored it. Everymorning (talk) 00:57, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That meta-analysis is a case-study in doing a bad meta-analysis. If you look at their data, it's plain as day that the larger the study and the better the control, the smaller the effect was, trending toward sham acupuncture being equal to acupuncture. If you eliminate the tiny studies, the poorly controlled studies, and the studies with high risk of bias, there is no effect at all for acupuncture. This is precisely the sort of gimmick that the good folks at SBM have been complaining about for years. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:30, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Are we now in some sort of alternative reality where the opinion of a Wikipedia editor is considered superior to that of the editors of the Laryngoscope? Is there a policy guideline to support your argument, or are you just trying to dress up your opinion as fact? Perhaps you should submit a letter to the editor of the journal, or publish your own meta-analysis, if you know so much about how to do it right. Everymorning (talk) 03:45, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Someguy1221, you are suggesting that the source should be excluded because it included small studies that you feel invalidate the statistical outcomes. However, MEDRS specifically says "The best evidence for treatment efficacy is mainly from meta-analyses of randomized controlled trials (RCTs)." AND Do not reject a high-quality type of study (e.g., a meta-analysis) ... because of personal objections to the inclusion criteria, references, funding sources, or conclusions" Are there any policy-based reasons for exclusion? or are there any equally high-quality sources that directly contradict the conclusions of this proposed new source? 2001:56A:75B7:9B00:441:A41B:9784:50F1 (talk) 03:52, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Acupuncture&oldid=742997344"