Talk:Amiri Baraka

The article as it stands gives something of an anti-Baraka slant. As a signatory to the tract "Poetry Matters!" I have a different perspective, and would argue that it should be mentioned in the article that there are some who have these views. --Daniel C. Boyer 19:10, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I wrote the majority of the article and would have no objection to this. TDC 19:11, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)

On a side note, nothing personal against you, I read the defense of Baraka and all I have to say is that I hope you did not write it, because I havent seen so much bullshit since I worked summers on a dairy farm in Phillips Wisconsin. TDC 19:52, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)

Alas, your knowledge goes to waste if you don't contribute to the Bullshit article (currently lacking nearly any info on bovine feces) or the Phillips, Wisconsin article (nothing but U.S. Census tidbits). - Eric 14:38, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Neutrality

Continuing from the above: In its present form the article lacks neutrality. While it's important to mention the controversies surrounding Baraka, the article should put this into perspective. All the quotes only seem to be there in order to prove that Baraka is anti-semitic while on the other hand there is hardly any information on the nature of his literary works. --a_conz 22:20, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

One issue is the potential over-emphasis of the NJ controversy. To me, the following phrase from the article seems like a crutch for a writer who wants to emphasize that situation and is expressing that desire as a claim that it's the "most widely known" thing about Baraka: "Baraka is today most widely known for the fact that in 2002 the state of New Jersey made him poet laureate, but forced him out of that position..." See also the last paragraph with his remark to the white student, for another example of this: is he really *known* for such comments or is that one anecdotal/isolated moment? -Kala

Why are so many people offended by Baraka's poem. To me it is the voice of America. Many americans wonder the same things that Baraka has addressed in th poem. It angers me that freedom of speech can be intercepted by something as outragous as accusing someone of anti-semitism. The real problem is not with Baraka but with the problems we face as citizens of this ever changing nation. The shame is it seems that poets these days are the only ones who are conscious of what is going on this world. What happened to people boldly speaking out for what is right and what you don't understand. Now all we do is critique those who have the courage to stand up. All these mendacious acquisations are out of control. I give Amiri Baraka his props, because I don't see any type of anti-semitic rhetoric or referneces persay. Give the lyrical master back his poet laureate duty and focus on the bigger vision....getting the bastards out of office.

Basically if you ever question the United States or Israel you run the risk of being labeled 'dangerous' -Noam Chomsky

[edit]

Bibliography

SHABAK

"stated further that "I do believe, as I stated about England, Germany, France, Russia, that the Israeli government, certainly its security force, SHABAK knew about the attack in advance." Baraka still stands by his claim, even though it has been completely debunked." Please provide references, footnotes , about it being completely debunked. I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just asking for references and footnotes. 67.118.118.184 22:45, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC) This article is anti-baraka. Who wrote it that right-wing black listing author, who shouln't be mentioned at all?

Neutrality

Yes, it seems this is an article trying to indite Baraka on changes of anti-Semitism and nothing else.

Have at it then. TDC 05:06, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

New version

I've now tried to write a completely new version of this article - mostly based on the article I've written for German wikipedia and rehashing only very, very few bits from the old article - which, as I've stated above, I consider to be very partisan and derogatory. Some general comments on the new article:

• So far I haven't listed the sources I've used (might incorporate that later). The most important are:
  • William J. Harris's Introduction to the LeRoi Jones / Amiri Baraka Reader, New York, 1991
  • The Wordsworth Companion to English Literature, Ware (GB), 1994
  • The Autobiography of LeRoi Jones/Amiri Baraka, Chicago, 1984
  • Numerous writings by Amiri Baraka
  • The links referred to in the article

Desiderata:

• This is only a start. So far the article's mostly biographic and bibliographic, i.e. literary criticism is missing (differing opinions, references to sources)
• Most of Baraka's worked can be viewed on his homepage. I don't think anything would be wrong with some examples here and there - only I'm afraid his works are still subject to copyright (excerpts, like in the old article, that are polemical and purely quoted to make a political point are definitely not very helpful).
• Baraka, of course, was and remains a controversial figure. Therefore perhaps a special section, sorting out the main controversies and giving a few quotes pro and con, might be helpful.
• A special section on his music criticism (and his influence) would be very desirable.
• In the old article there was a whole section on the recent death of his daughter. I consider that to be purely nosey, unenyclopedic yellow press prattle. But maybe some people would like to differ?
• Finally: Though I'm sort of bilingual criticism/edits concerning language are much appreciated. --Albrecht_Conz 02:25, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I think the article looks good now. A criticism section would be nice, as Baraka has said some less than diplomatic things in his career. TDC 02:42, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Since I'm a complete noob, I wanted to offer this suggestion for discussion before editing a controversial page. I think it's a misleading simplification to say that Baraka "had to give up" his position as Laureate. On July 1, 2003, the New Jersey legislature completely eliminated the office, since there was no existing impeachment policy. Does this unusual circumstance warrant mention? BoredomMan 9:15, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

I gotta say I'm not too happy about Conz 's rewrite.

• I think an article about a poet is much more insightful with quotes from his poetry.
• I liked my section headings more than simple year-ranges (meaningful headings give meaning, years are just numbers)
• The section I had added (and spent some time researching/editing/attributing) regarding his daughter was completely obliterated without discussion. I don't think that's in the spirit of Wikipedian consensus. I thought that section really helped balance out an otherwise negatively-slanting article, as well as give usefully relevant information about Baraka (and his family) in recent years.

- Eric 01:24, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Hi Eric, thanks for your reply. As to the points you raise:

• Concerning the quotes from his poetry I agree - to a certain point. Quotes are helpful, that is when they're meant to say something concerning poetry/literature. The old version had quotes only in order to proove that Baraka is antisemitic or homophobic. That's got very little to do with discussing the import of his poetry. As mentioned above, a section discussing the merits (pro and con) of his works is still very much needed. And that's where quotations should come in - not as part of his biography. Biography and art are two spheres to be discussed separately (of course there are interrelations - but that's no reason for confalting the two. You wouldn't want to mention things regarding Einsteins merits as a husband or father in a section concerning his theory of relativity - or the other way round). For the time being anyone interested can follow the link and peruse a very comprehensive collection of Barakas poetry.
• Section headings: That's fair enough and might be useful, though, of course with the many developments that took place in Baraka's life it's rather difficult to subsume certain periods under one political slogan (like "black nationalism" - where does that leave the music criticism of the period?). That's the reason I opted for year ranges.
• Above I mentioned my opinion on the section regarding his daughter. Sure, that's my point of view - and it's open to discussion as also mentioned above. To restate my position, maybe more clearly: I do not think that biographical trivia, especially of a, I'd opine, sensationalist kind, are a helpful contribution in assessing the meaning of a person's life. Just being a victim, a victim by proxy even, isn't a meaningful act or work. It might help, to feel sorry for somebody - but then there's lots of people you can feel sorry for - without understanding much about their life, work or import. I hope that's not too polemical; I just wanted to make my point of view clear. Sure we do need more debate and especially a section regarding the aesthetic, political and otherwise import of Baraka's works. --Albrecht Conz 22:46, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

After some consideration I'm reverting back to Albrecht Conz's version. While it is important to discuss Baraka's anti-semitism, it's also important that this article not be obsessed with it or so have so much space devoted to proving it to the reader. Gamaliel 18:09, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't know anything about how to edit on here, but I'm going to give this a try. It's good to see you are all starting from scratch. Hopefully, we can arrive at some sort of fair portrayal of this man's life. First of all, this is all going to come up so I'm going to cover two important points. His anti-semitism and his homophobia. Most of his anti-semitism stems from the period of his involvement with the Nation of Islam, which was common among the membership. One should check out his essay "Confessions of an ex-anti-semite" before condemming him. In it he apologizes for past anti-semitism and today says that he is simply anti-zionist. In relation to the quotes about israelis filming the towers in his recent poem he says that he doesn't see israel as any more monolithic than America, which is basically an assertion that not all israeli jews are bad people, which should be the sticking point for an accusation of "anti-semitism" by definition. Onward to the accusation of homophobia. CLEARLY some of his poems are homophobic. This can't be denied. However, just as with the anti-semitic accusations, these poems were written in a certain time and place and we can only ascertain from them his views AT THAT TIME (if at all, because art affords a certain poetic license). In 2003, his daughter, a lesbian, and her lover were brutally murdered. At the funeral a friend reported that he said that "yes, his daughter was gay and we need to root out homophobia and evil in the Black community and the world at large. Even beyond their death, just to see those two caskets there in the church showed that here were two women who loved each other.” http://www.gaycitynews.com/gcn234/lesbianhomocides.html I don't know how to put that in the article, but that clearly refutes any future criticism to the effect that he is an ONGOING or PRACTICING homophobe. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.184.234.189 (talk • contribs) .

Of Relevance

I ask, perhaps there should be an apology offered to the author of this article: for Baraka's statements, claims and for the grief these may have caused he or she. For it is quite evident. This article is nearly devoid of scholarship and dripping with misguided sarcasm, negates its intended purpose of libelling the name of a great and American poet. The incorrect usage of grammar and offhand phrasing are typical. The attacks at Baraka's personage are but trivial. Indeed, I ask, is it of relevance to what purports to be a encyclical entry this scathing bias? Is it of relevance this infatuation of white America with black art, in all its vain disdain and utter misinterpretation? To whomever agreed it was justifiable this article be published, I offer you an apology: for the ignorance of a nation and any interruption it may be caused. Andthetranemoves 08:14, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

"Alleged answer" needs a cite

"he allegedly answered one white woman student's question on how whites could help the situation with this response..."

Needs a cite. Or possibly should be removed. -- 201.51.166.124 21:08, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

worst what?

"in 2006, controversial right-wing author and lecturer David Horowitz ranked Baraka 27th worst in his book The Professors: The 101 Most Dangerous Academics in America." 27th worst what exactly? Paul B 15:36, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I clarified the language of the sentence, although it seems clear from the book title that it refers to his role as professor or scholar. --chemica 01:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the great problem is that according to the book's article, Horowitz did not rank the professors. The list was created in alphabetical order by the institution with which the professor is associated. --chemica 01:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Date Inconsistencies/Style Revision Needed

The Biography section gives inconsistent dates for Baraka's name change, presents dates in non-chronological order, etc. Further, the article refers to Baraka alternatively as Jones or Baraka, confusion ensues. Lobstersandbox 22:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

We need contribution discussing what this man actually did!

I agree with all the complaints about this article. It is slanderous and disgusting and clearly focuses on the few instances of Amiri Baraka's work that some people consider unacceptable. Regardless that these complaints are obviously rooted in a misunderstanding of poetry, of black nationalism, of the social and political histories of black people and radicals in particular their complaints do deserve a place because some people consider them notable, but for god's sake let's also mention the rest of what he did.

"Baraka stands with Wheatley, Douglass, Dunbar, Hughes, Hurston, Wright and Ellison as one of the eight figures... who have significantly affected the course of African-American literary culture." - Arnold Rampersad

The life of a man is always an evolution, let us change the phrasing of this article to frame his life properly: his committment to growth and change, to freedom, justice and pride, rather than the standing article which accuses him of committment to anti-semitism and hate.

And who are these supposed left-wing radicals that are suspect of his committment to Marxism? Who said that they get to decide what Marxism means? This at the very least needs clarification. But right now I'm going to remove it.

Neutrality!

This article is complete POV, but for Baraka! The article systematically white-washes, excuses and discounts his most biggoted outbursts. Unless someone objects. I'm putting a NPOV warning, and I'll take the time in the next couple of days to enumerate the specific problems I identify in this article. --Ori Livneh (talk..contribs) 22:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Nobody should allow the pro-Baraka crowd to spew apologisms and jutifications, as it had done before my just-now re-edits, any more than the anti-Baraka crowd should be permitted to unceasingly criticize with no conception of the impressive writing I am sure Baraka has done (and let me just add that Hitler, too, wrote and spoke very impressively -- take from that allusion what you will).

This article (and I've written some of it) is still very superficial and many things are missing - especially regarding his works and his impact (cultrally as well as politically). Of course Baraka has been, and is, a controversial figure, yet rants as the above are not at all helpful, especially as they seem to come from people who seem to know little to nothing about him. I might be wrong, of course. But if you know more and want to contribute it would be helpful if you named your sources, went to specifics etc. The way it is now, it is nothing but a jaundiced rant. Which is why I am going to remove the NPOV tag for the time being. --Albrecht Conz 23:34, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Verify quote?

I heard an allegation that a LeRoi or LeRoy Jones wrote: “Rape the white girls. Rape their fathers. Cut the mother’s throats." Is this the same person? Does anyone know if he really wrote or said that? If so, I was wondering if it should be mentioned.

Boris B 14:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC) (I forgot to sign again!)

There are lots of allegations etc. going around about all kinds of things. In case you actually heard that it would be helpful if you'd not just come up with an allegation but with a source for it. --Albrecht Conz 23:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Please read Alice Walker, You Can't Keep a Good Woman Down (Harcourt Brace Jovanovich 1981) , and in particular, the short story "Advancing Luna - And Ida B. Wells" in its entirety. --Gaby w 07:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

"In case you actually heard that it would be helpful if you'd not just come up with an allegation but with a source for it." I asked a very reasonable question. Google gives 615 hits for the search ""rape the white girls" Baraka" (including the inner quotation marks) and 1070 for ""rape the white girls" Jones." Browsing those links the answer to my first question is obvious; I tend to use Wikipedia as my first resort but I suppose Google will have to do. The answer to my second question, should this be mentioned, remains open. Boris B 05:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Baraka never gave up Laureate post

The following sentence is inaccurate: "In 2002, the state of New Jersey made him poet laureate—a position he had to give up in 2003, surrounding controversy having to do with his 9/11 poem Somebody Blew Up America [2]." What happenened was the then then Governer McGreevy tried to remove Baraka from the post, only to discover that there was no legal way to do so. So he then abolished the NJ Poet Laureate title.

Baraka never relinquished the post - in fact he refused to do so.