Talk:Tomoko and Mother in the Bath

An entry from Tomoko and Mother in the Bath appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 7 October, 2006.

Wikipedia

Including the photograph

Might I suggest including a web-resolution copy of the photograph in the article, such as the one at the listed [1] (not the slightly larger resolution version accessible by clicking)? Provided the image was of a low enough resolution not to have a deleterious effect on the commercial value of the original photograph, and that it was being used in an educational context (which this article would fall under), Fair Use would cover the prescence of such a significant photograph (cf. Image:Lange-MigrantMother02.jpg, Image:Nguyen.jpg, and Image:Kent State massacre.jpg.) I understand the (reasonable) objection by the photographer that the work not be displayed, but legally (if perhaps not ethically) Wikipedia could do so. At the very least could a request for permission be sent to the email provided at the site, outlining Wikipedia's non-profit, educational ideals? GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 23:43, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I did consider this. Certainly I think that the image would be acceptable under Fair Use, perhaps using the Template:HistoricPhoto tag. The reason I didn't upload the image was because of the express wish of the family not to republish the photograph. The image is still widely available on other websites, so those who are curious can find it if they want. Indeed, I provided a link at the bottom for that very reason.

In terms of asking permission, I have already e-mailed Aileen Archive to ask permission to use a number of Smith's Minamata images on the Minamata disease page, but I have yet to hear back from them. The Tomoko photograph is not listed on their website and considering the very public withdrawal of the photograph, I don't think permission, even for Fair Use, would be forthcoming. Bobo12345 00:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

While I still believe that the article would benefit from a reference image attached to the lead, I'll wait to see what opinions arrive with the article's appearance on the Main Page. If there's little interest in adding an image, or the general consensus is to respect the photographer's wishes, I'll leave well enough alone. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 13:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I, too, arrived from the Main Page and wondered why it was not included, until I read all the way through the article. I fully support your decision not to include the photograph given the family's wishes and their continued ownership of the copyright, as well as its continued availability elsewhere online.

Might I suggest that a) the introduction of the article make that very clear and b) a detailed written description of the image be included as well? Daniel Case 00:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with its omission here; the job of an encyclopedia is to inform its readers, and this is a very notable photograph. Surely we wouldn't remove the photograph of Phan Thị Kim Phúc if her living relatives decided they no longer wanted it published? I don't suggest that we violate copyright, but as the photograph is extremely historically notable, using a low-resolution reproduction of it alongside academic/historical discussion is clearly fair use---indeed this is nearly exactly the sort of thing fair use was designed for. --Delirium 01:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The image creator's estate took very deliberate steps to discourage publication, including restoring the copyright to the family. Phuc's relatives do not own the copyright; the Uemura family does. Our fair-use terms should consider that.

Yes, the image is widely available. However, I've seen more defensible fair-use images get bounced from articles for less. I'm fine with the link. Daniel Case 04:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Well similarly I arrived from the main page and wondered why it was absent (not really bothering to read the article). While I'm in two minds, I think I'm leaning towards agreeing to exclude it due to the wishes of the family. It is of course the job of an encylopaedia to inform its readers however we still have to strike a balance. I don't think many people deny we could legally use it under fair use. But just because we could legally do something doesn't mean we should do something. Ultimately as with all things in wikipedia it comes down to achieving a consensus among editors and failing that trying to decide which is closest to consensus. Nil Einne 04:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

BTW, although I appreciate the point your trying to make, I think you've failed to appreciate the circumstances of the Phan Thị Kim Phúc cases. For starters this wasn't posed with permission but was a snap of the moment. Secondly, Phan Thị Kim Phúc is still alive and has never asked anyone to withdraw the use of the photo. Should she do so in the future we will of course have to consider this but this seems rather unlikely to happen given her subsiquent work (and ultimately the circumstances are different enough that it wouldn't be surprising if our decision is different). Should she die and her living relatives ask to withdraw use of photo, this would be a rather different case since during her life she was able to fully understand and appreciate the use of the photo and gave no indication she did not want it to be use. As such, the wishes of her living relatives will carry far less weight (taken together with the different circumstances surrounding the photo means the will be little use in considering the two cases together). Nil Einne 04:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I would like to chime in for inclusion. I think family wishes should be ignored unless an encyclopedia-wide policy took this into account--that pictures regretfully published will be removed if someone related to it wishes so. I think this is important for consistency's sake and general NPOV across articles. The fact that it is copyright owners discouraging publication may make a difference but if that is the case then this should be handled as with other cases where there is a decent fair use claim and the copyright holder wishes to not have it published. Possibly a callous response... gren グレン 13:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

why aint the picture included?