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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Muggle1982 (talk | contribs) at 19:59, 15 October 2006. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Debate and Discuss points

Dear Hkelkar PLEASE do not purge the talk page! I here re-inserted my comments on this oage, which Hkelkar erased: I must add my opinion to this debate. I entirely agree with Dhammafriend, that dubbing Ambedkar's Buddhism "neo Buddhism" smacks of discriminatory intent. There are numerous western Buddhist schools that are even more blatant deviations from the 3 ancient schools. Yet these schools included under the category "Buddhism" without any "neo" tag. I have been to Buddhist schools where people even re-introduce the idea of God and "Christ energy", and nobody seems to want to classify that separately. The fact that it is mainly Buddhists on non-Dalit, but Indian descent who attempt to dub Ambedkarite Buddhism as suspect Buddhism, suggests some casteism.

I vote that Dhammafriend contextualise the "neo-Buddhist" tag to include the history of Brahminical hostility to Dalit leadership and innovation in the scriptural-religious sphere and include citations showing how Ambedkar's teaching is certainly closer to the Pali Canon than Vajrayana or Pure Land.

All users if anything is not acceptable then put a point in the discussion page and then correct it. I have corrected few points such as Proper Understanding of Buddhism. For me it not acceptable in Global Context but I think in Indian Context is it right. Fall of Buddhism and Revival of Buddhism are interesting points for world scholars and especially Buddhist scholars. Don't keep any hate in mind before reverting others comments. The Many Scholars are doing research in India about Buddhism and day by day the relations between Hindus and Buddhist are like fighting modes. So this is not the place to fight. Only debate and corrent the statements to keep the article good and informative. Religion is a sensitive issue so be cool Truthlover 17:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Recently the Gujarat Govt. controlled by Hindus has passed a anti-Conversion law. The Jain and Buddhist community leaders are opposing it. Interesting to keep watch on current developments. Truthlover 17:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The user Hkelkar is not coming forward for debate as well as not giving contact details to clarify the issues. Dhammafriend 21:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Mr. HkelkarPlease come forward with your list of points which you find not acceptable

Mr. Kelkar, I would be happy to answer your questions,provide all the information you need if you could come up with a list of issues you are not ready to accept in this article. I havent seen any thing wrong in it Also before asking proofs please be prepare to come forward with proofs for Vedas, Manusmirti A clearly defined defination of Hindus. Since you do not accecpt any links please let us know what kind of proofs you are looking for.

Do not unneccessarily put any article on hold for nothing.Bodhidhamma

The fact is that per Wikipedia:Reliable Sources Partisan religious websites should be used with caution. That means that it should be stated at worst, with qualification. BEar in mind that partisan Hindu, muslim, Sikh etc sources are also treated in the same way on wikipedia. Find SCHOLARLY information to back your claims and maybe we can discuss. By the way, Dhammafriend, you might want to look up Wikipedia:SockpuppetryHkelkar 23:16, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Kelkar. Its upto Wikipedia to decide if the user is using multiple usernames. They can confirm with my IP address as Dammafriend lives in Germany and I live in USA. Since you are asking me to provide Scolarly proofs why dont you follow same rules while writing History Of Hunduism? Why you are deleting my changes without giving any explanation.

9000 years is acceptable to you without any credible evidence? Buddha was Vishnu's Avatara is acceptable to you without any evidence? then why you question this article?

Er those things are stated or implied in the language as "beliefs" not "facts" on wikipedia. Big difference.Hkelkar 13:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
.Hkelkar there are many false claims like Buddha as Avatar of Vishnu do you ask proofs for these things? Can you define who a Hindu is? Don't be a hidden attacker on Indian Buddhist Movement. The user .Bodhidhamma wants to have discussion on your points but you are not coming forward to debate. Don't teach others what to do and not to do because everybody can learn Wikipedia. Its a great source of information Truthlover 16:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The user Hkelkar is not following Wikiepedia Directives for discussions and NPOV

Regarding Indian Buddhist Movement article I have asked the user to come for specific points that are not acceptable. But he is showing his anti-Buddhist mindset ans it not open for any discussions. Wiki Administrators except Brahmin and Shudra Varnas please take note of this. Dhammafriend 16:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I will also report this ethnic characterization as a personal attack.These edits are severely demented.Hkelkar 16:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Please come forward for what kind of attacks are you talking? I have clearly mentioned that the article is about present Buddhist movement in India and current happenings. This year October 2006 millions of people are converting to Buddhism at Nagpur in India. Come and see for the proofs. Dhammafriend 16:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
You have made several ethnic characterizations in my talk page and on this talk page. Until you stop making ethnic and racial attacks on people I refuse to discuss with you. Please stop, for this is detrimental to the purpose of wikipedia. Just because somebody is Jewish, brahmin, Buddhist or Shudra does not mean that he should/should not edit certain articles or participate in discussion. What you have said so far is BLATANTLY racist and hatemongering and action will be taken to that effect.Hkelkar 16:29, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Please come to the specific point. If you say all I write is wrong?? This is too much !! For your kind information we oppose all kind of social discrimination like racism, Hindu-casteism, Hindu-untouchability. As a Buddhist from my heart I believe in Equality, Liberty and Fraternity the basic principles of Buddhism. What racism are you talking? I have not called Black or any such remarks. We have Black, White Buddhists in Europe I am working with such Buddhis people Dhammafriend 16:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


I must add my opinion to this debate. I entirely agree with Dhammafriend, that dubbing Ambedkar's Buddhism "neo Buddhism" smacks of discriminatory intent. There are numerous western Buddhist schools that are even more blatant deviations from the 3 ancient schools. Yet these schools included under the category "Buddhism" without any "neo" tag. I have been to Buddhist schools where people even re-introduce the idea of God and "Christ energy", and nobody seems to want to classify that separately. The fact that it is mainly Buddhists on non-Dalit, but Indian descent who attempt to dub Ambedkarite Buddhism as suspect Buddhism, suggests some casteism.

I vote that Dhammafriend contextualise the "neo-Buddhist" tag to include the history of Brahminical hostility to Dalit leadership and innovation in the scriptural-religious sphere.

The Buddha's teachins are not like the Koran. Ambedkar's teaching is certainly closer to the Pali Canon than Vajrayana or Pure Land.

Claims that I am anti-Buddhist and source for Navayāna

The only textual edits I've made to this page are, redirects from Navayana and Navayāna, inclusions of a reference section, and the definition of navayāna.

Contrary to what Dhammafriend says, I am an American of Indian descent and a Theravāda Buddhist of former Brahmin caste.

Buddhist do not have caste neither they believe any former caste like Brahmin,Bhangi ,Scheduled Caste, OBC caste etc. So don't claim false things. I have Buddhist friends in America who can certainly verify your identity. So if want to discuss you can also meet our Buddhist friends in America so don't try to fool wikipedia community. Who gave you ordination as Buddhist? Do you know the process to become a Buddhist? Dhammafriend 10:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I edited Navayāna into the article because in Buddhism in India : Challenging Brahmanism and Caste by Gail Omvedt (This book is incredibly anti-Caste and is pro-Buddhist) I have read Neo-Buddhism being referred to as Navayana, which is is obviously a non-IAST transliteration of navayāna.

Legal system in India have Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Christens as Religion. So you can not say is 'referred' ? Its strange. When our cencus is done people are referred as their religion Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim etc. So Navayana is baseless term in every legal sense Dhammafriend 10:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

"Ambedkar's Buddhism seemingly differs from that of those who accepted by faith, who 'go for refuge' and accept the canon. This This much is clear from its basis: it does not accept in totality the scriptures of the Theravada, the the Mahayana, or the Vajrayana. The question that is then clearly put forth: is a fourth yana, a Navayana, a kind of modernistic Enlightenment version of the Dhamma really possible within the framework of Buddhism?" (8)

The book blatantly says that Ambedkar DESIGNED what has become known as navayāna. He did not found the Navayana publishing house. I edited in that there is a Navayana publishing house into the article so people would not confuse, navayāna, yāna, and Navayana, the publishing house.

It is true that there is a publishing house known as Navyana so what? It is not a Buddhist publishing house. It is a book publisher not a religion publisher. So you can't put their name in the Indian Buddhist Movement article because its a religious movement. Dhammafriend 10:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Dhammafriend is wrong in his claims that Buddhism died in India, Buddhism was slayed, not killed. Buddhism still exists in Ladakh, Darjeeling, (and Chittagong in Bangladesh). Dr. Ambedkar recreated a Buddhist population that disappeared from most of India. His religious beliefs differ in certain ways from the ancient school of Theravāda and younger schools of Vajrayāna, Tantrayāna, and Mahāyāna, so hence what he revived was neo-Buddhism, somewhat like how organizations like Hellenion have revived the Greek religion as a form of neo-paganism. Neo-Buddhism translate into Pāli would be navayāna, new vehicle.

Dr. Ambedkar revived Buddhism in India so you can not brand is Old OR Neo! Its Buddhism. People from Europe /USA are converting to their own found Buddhist practices. All are Buddhist so newly converted people are not branded as neo ! Please also visit www.e-b-u.org. In Indian Context Buddhist from Ladakh, Assam, Maharshtra, Karnataka etc. are a fighting unitedly for Buddhist Revival. Do you know All Indian Buddhist Monk Association ? Especially for Mahabodhi Temple Liberation Movement world Buddhist are united. Buddhist monk from Japan Bhante Surai Sasai is doing best in Central Region of India Nagpur to mobiliese masses Dhammafriend 10:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

It is also mentioned in Reconstructing the World: B. R. Ambedkar and Buddhism in India by by Surendra Jondhale & Johannes Beltz. If you search through its index on Amazon you can specifically see that the word Navayāna is repeated multiple times

The Article is about Buddhist Movement in India current status and present developments. So it is not about Dr. Ambedkar for that we have separate article so you can post your views there. Not in this article. About Dr. Gail Omvedt you might have read her books only but our friends have arranged her Lecture in IIT Bombay www.iitb.ac.in and all know her personnaly. Dhammafriend 10:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Thegreyanomaly Thursday, 2006-09-21 T 00:25 UTC

NPOV Buddhist Movement Crossing Hindu Caste Barriers

The article is about present Buddhist religious activities in India. There is no violation of POV. Many people who are branded as Hindus from different castes are converting to Buddhism on their own to escape from Hindu Caste System and Hindu Untouchability. Buddhists accepts everybody irrespective of his Hindu Castes. Anybody wants to check he can visit India especially on October 2006 in Nagpur where thousands of people convert each year. Many news are available to check its truth. Brithish Buddhist, Japanese Buddhists and ShriLankan Buddhists are helping Indian Buddhist to carry out mass conversions. Dhammafriend 18:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Page title

Recently, User:Dhammafriend moved this page from Neo-Buddhism to Indian Buddhist Movement with the explanation, "Movement started by Dr. Ambedkar is known as Modern Buddhist Movement. Dr. Ambedkar rejected many theories of even traditional Buddhists especially the reason of renunciations i.e. myth propagated by Buddhists of 4 sites seen by Prince.". I will agree that, when I wrote the initial version of this page, I wasn't sure if Neo-Buddhism was really the best title, but it has the advantage of being used occasionally outside of Wikipedia. Where does the expression "Indian Buddhist Movement" come from? It's all capitalised, as if it were a proper name; "Indian Buddhist movement" sounds like it could apply to any form of Buddhism in India.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 19:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm also interested to see a source for the name Navayana, which is now listed as the Pali name for this movement.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 19:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
There is no source for the name. It is used a default name used by some so as to distinguish from the ancient schools of buddhism.(mahayana, hinayana). the word has no scriptural support and is certainly not a Pali word. Hence i am deleting the part "or Navayāna Buddhism (Pāli नवयान navayāna, literally "new vehicle")" Indian Buddhist practice is general. It does not confirm to any particular school of thought. Though it can be argued that it bears more resemblance to the theravada school but this is my POV. there is not need to mention it. Dr B R Ambedkars 'Buddha and His Dhamma' is considered final authority on all doctrinal matters by Indian Buddhists --Yeditor 11:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The name Navayana can not be applicable to present Indian Buddhist Movement because it is a non secterian movement. If you see the All Indian Buddhist Monk Organization it represents all Buddhists in India. Especially from Aasam, Maharashtra and Karnataka. Some scholar's like Gail Omvedtt Or Christopher Queen has used the term 'Navyan i.e. new Vehical' just as a new term than Mahayan and Hinyan. Now all Buddhists are united for liberation of Mahabodhi Vihar, Bodhagaya from Brahmin and Shudras (so-called Hindu) control. All Hindus irrespective of their caste and Varna are anti-Buddhist. So they try to absorb Buddhism in their caste ridden Hindu fold. But '22 vows' given by Bodhisattva Dr. Ambedkar is the heart of present Buddhist movement. Dhammafriend 13:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

please add official view

i think that in this article, there shall be a place for the official view of india. i think it to be a indispensible point, in case a NPOV is to be maintained. u can put all views there, but if it lacks the official view, then it surely lacks something.

nids 11:06, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Ms. Nidhi in your Hindu Religion what is the status of women? Please see Women in India and Women In Hinduism. For hundreds of year education for women was banned, they are treated a Ati-Shudra i.e. lower caste than Shudra which is equivalent to Untouchables. Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar through constitutional methods gave you protection. So better you worry about Caste Based Hinduism. The Indian Buddhist from Assam to Maharashtra and from Punjab to Tamil Nadu do understand the anti-Buddhist attitude of Hindus. Now-a-day thousands of people are converting to Buddhism. Visit Nagput this October 2nd 2006. You will find millions of people converting to Buddhism. Dhammafriend 13:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
dont assume the gender of other person just by your choice. I am male FYI. I will shortly answer your other concerns. nids(♂) 01:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Sure, let's say something, but let's not give it undue weight. How much nuance is there in the official position on Buddhism? If I recall correctly, the Indian Constitution defines Hinduism as including Buddhism and Jainism. However, it also seems that Buddhists are measured separately from Hindus in the census.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 00:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

no. u can check 2001 census. buddhists were include in hindus in 2001 census, along with Jains. nids 13:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

All non-Brahmin Hindus are Shudra because this is Kali Yuga as per Hindu religion. The Shudra Hindus are hypocrite. Same case here with Nidhi and other anti-Buddhist HINDUS i.e. Shudra people. Please read the cencus report very well. There are religious cencus. 1. Hindus, 2. Muslims, 3. Christens, 4. Sikhs, 5. Buddhists and 6. Jains. National minority commission has BUDDHIST representative aslo. Bhante Surai Sasai a Japanese Born Indian Buddhist is the leader of Indian Buddhist movemernt. Especially he is fighting for Total Buddhist Control on Mahabodhi Vihar. This sacred site of Buddhists in under control of Shudra Hindus like Mr. Yadav Or Shudra Hindu Mr. Modi. Please check it before commenting. Dhammafriend 13:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, the article currently says, "According to the 2001 census, there are currently 7.95 million Buddhists in India i.e.0.8 % of total population of India, at least 5.83 million of whom are Buddhists in Maharashtra."—Nat Krause(Talk!) 03:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

yes they are counted differently as a sect. so are jains and many other sectarians. but the total hindu population of 900 millions, as told by CIA world facts, include all these sects. Hinduism is not a well defined religioin. it encourages different schools of thoughts and one of them was infact athiestic.

and as a matter of fact buddists who have, so called, converted from hinduism, get all the benefits of scheduled castes, reserved exclusively for lower caste hindus. while those converting to christianity or Islam dont get those benefits, thus emphasising the fact of different religious identities.

nids 08:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Hindus who are converted to Buddhism could not get any benifits till 1990. But Prime Minister V.P. Singh and [Mandal Commission] gave reservation for Buddhists also for political gains and to get vots of Buddhists. There is nothing wrong. If Hindus are taking reservation then what is wrong if Buddhists take it? First stop the reservation of Hindus then we will stop reservation of Buddhists. The Indian Buddhists don't need it. You can go in court against it. India is a democricy and Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar has given equal right to everybody while framing the Constitution. Even Hindu Ati-Shudra women like Nidhi has equal rights because Buddhism preaches Eqality.Dhammafriend 13:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Get your facts right before you distort them. Dalit Buddha's have always got the benefits of reservation. This is the Only reason that there have been more so-called converts to Buddhism rather than Christianity or Islam. This part was done by Ambedkar himself.nids(♂) 01:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


Low-caste people who convert to Buddhism receive the benefits reserved for low-caste people. That seems normal. If a black man in the U.S. converts to Islam, he is still eligible for affirmative action (to the extent that it is in effect in the first place). What seems unusual to me is that a low-caste Indian who converts to Christianity or Islam loses benefits. I have no idea why these benefits should have anything to do with religion.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 22:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

see this is just to emphasise that there have been atrocities in the past to lower caste hindus. in case of america, they were based on racial discrimination and not on religious. so they must apply to black man, as he is not losing his race, just changing his religion. in case of india, they were based on the caste system of religion. moreover, christianity and islam do not allow caste differences among its pupils. so is buddhism. but in india, since buddhism, (including neo-budhhism) is officially included in Hinduism, (also see Hinduism), so the caste based benefits applies to them. I would love to have ur argument on this topic. but since wikipedia is based on NPOV and basically on facts, i would like u to add the official view on this article, and then we can continue our arguments. waitin for ur action nids 09:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

i shall wait for few more days. either u add about the official view, or i will be adding. if u have any arguments please put them forward. else i shall take it as a green signal from u. nids 07:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

So far, I'm aware of evidence that the Indian constitution, at least in some places, defines Hinduism as including Buddhism. I have yet to see any evidence indicating that this the official position in any other sense, and so I object to including that in the article. As for the constitution, we might as well mention it, but it doesn't seem like a very important fact, especially since Neo-Buddhism didn't even exist when the constitution was written.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 16:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

as for the fact, neo- buddhism was envisioned by ambedkar in 1935 only when he denounced hinduism. as for the matter of officialism, everybody knows that reservations to scheduled castes extend to budhhists and it is also well known that they use it. if there is any record, that u find, wherein neo-buddhist refuse to utilize the benefits reserved to lower caste hinduls only, saying that neo-buddhism is a different religion and it does not allows division on the basis of castes, it is not important.

but since neither u wont find such records nor do they exist, it is important to mention this fact. nids 17:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

i would also request u to read hinduism article once. so that u first understand hinduism. it is not a monomorphic monotheistic religion. it is a evolving process. u can claim that u are an athiest and still an Hindu. it does not denounce worship or followin of great men (like Islam calls worship of sufi saints to be apostasy and so the punishment for them in Islam is just death). if i extend ur view that neo-buddhism is a different religion, than what will u say for Arya Samaj.nids 17:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that reservation is applied to Buddhists and is used by Buddhists. What I want is a source for your interpretation that this shows that Buddhists are officially Hindu.
I read the article on Hinduism per your suggestion. I am aware that the categorisation which makes "Hinduism" one thing and Buddhism something else is arbitrary. However, that doesn't change the fact that this is the way these words are normally used, so to "Buddhism is part of Hinduism" is wrong unless it's qualified. This is especially relevant to this article, because Ambedkar and his followers and successors were so explicit that their goal in embracing Buddhism was to reject Hinduism.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 20:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

i m not asking to write that buddhism is a part of hinduism. even i can say that i worship shiva and i m not a hindu. its a different matter altogether.

what i want in this article is that reservations for Scheduled castes apply to Buddhists who have converted from lower class hindus. and they do not apply when they convert to an abrahmic religion. so just mention this in the article that officially u dont loose hinduism tag from u even if u convert to buddhism. u are basically denouncing some of the practices of hinduism.(say idol worship, or even vishnu and shiva worship). as u must have read that u can be a athiest and still be a hindu. u have the option of not using reservations for u when they apply to u. if this is the case with neo buddhists, it should not be mentioned that they are officially hindu. since it applies and it is used(reservations), it must be mentioned here. nids 09:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

If 'Nidhishsinghal' are so much worried about reservation then change your Hindu caste become a Hindu Chamar OR Hindu-Bhangi and take the benifits of reservation. The Buddhists are not asking to convert you. Instead of changing religion change you caste be a Hindu and take tell the world that you become a Hindu Bhangi. Neither the Christen world nor the Buddhists world cares about your chnage of caste. Buddhists don't need any reservation. Only Hindus fight for it because they are divided into caste and subcastes. Dhammafriend 14:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
We can certainly mention that low-caste people who convert to Buddhism retain their reservations, while they would lose them if they converted to Christianity of Islam. I still don't think this makes them officially Hindu, though.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 16:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

first mention this (ur first part) in the article. and for the second part, i m not saying that they officially become hindu. what i m sayin is that legally they can claim that they are Hindu. i m not saying that they have to call themselves hindu. of course u can have ur own identity, but if some of them want to say that they are buddhist and hindu too, then legally and officially they are right. while this priviledge does not extend to other monomorphic monotheistic religions. u cant claim that u are a muslim and a hindu at the same time, nor u can claim that u r christian and a muslim at the same time. u can only be one of them. got my point


also how can u say that they arent officially hindu, when the reservations apply to them, which are exclusively reserved for lower caste hindus. they ofcourse have the option of not using them, in which case they arent hindus, (officially). but as everyone knows that, almost all of them use the reservations.

moreover, government of india census, (can check 2001 census details), includes them in Hindus, as a subsect. there are many subsects wherein some separatists claim themselves to be different from hindus.(u would like to check Jainism), but majority identify themselves as hindus. as a matter of fact, on some restaurants in europe etc. u can find on menu Hindu Jain food. while some Jain can claim themselves to be separate from Hindus. nids 18:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

and as for Ambedkar part. read his article too(once). he denounced hinduism well into 1935 and even espoused the idea of separate Pakistan. he, infact, merged his political party, (independent labour party) with Muslim league and wrote editorials and all in favour of Pakistan in several papers and magazines. it was, when, he was disparaged by them, he decided not to go to pakistan and embrace islam. his aim was just to disparage hinduism, and nothing else. nids 18:52, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Nids what you wrote above is false propoganda and personal attacks on Babasaheb. The hindu sangh/parivar desperately tries to include both sikhs and buddhists and call them as hindus. This has political reasons. What is important is not any the official view but what the Buddhists and Sikhs consider themselves. The fact is that both these communities would prefer death than being called as parts of hinduism. Thus I ( a buddhist myself) will not allow any such wrong view.

The reason why, formerly scheduled caste, converts to Buddhism or Sikhism get reservation is because they relentlessly struggled for this right. There is no mention of 'Hindu' on their caste certificates. There is no such struggle inside the muslim community.The Andhra Pradesh goverment proposed reservations for muslims. But it was struck down by the courts and still there was no reaction by the Muslims. Lately Some voices are being raised in the christian community (John Dayal) for reservations but these have been viewed as a conversion tactic and hence dismissed. You cannot get anything free in India. You need to struggle for it. Your views are the same as those expressed on a POV fork (Neo Buddhism)It has been recommended for deletion and redirect to this page.--Yeditor 11:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

for the ambedkar part, please refer to his article on wikipedia. if u r saying that this article is a POV, plz clarify. it is in this article that it is written that he merged his political party with Muslim league. he espoused the idea of separate pakistan, and he even asked his followers to join the british army during 1942, when Quit India movement was at prime and Congress asked all its supporters to withdraw from the anglican services. he was to go to settle in pakistan, but when he was insulted by them, he decided to settle in india only. i accept that he suffered atrocities as a child and his growing up years, but if u are goin to justify all his acts on that basis than u r justifying palestinian terrorists too, for whatever they do.
and as for the official part, what will u say for Jains. and Arya Samaj. And Aghori Sadhus. all of these inculding neo-Buddhist have been included in the Hindus in the official Census of India 2001. i just want to mention these parts and also that they are eligible for reservations. moreover, even i know many buddhist who are happy to call themselves Hindus, who are u to take that right away from them. there may be some separatists, but nobody is forcing them to be called hindu. its just about their will and their right. while this right does not extend to say a muslim, or a christian that he can claim himself to be hindu at the same time.
i m a hindu, and i like many of buddhs ideas. those ideas have, infact, influenced our Vedanta philosophy.
please tell ur objections. nids 15:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing it out. The misinformation on Dr. Ambedkar was an obvious attempt to villfy Dr Ambedkar by associating him with seperatists. It had no truth. Dr. Ambedkars thoughts ( Highly critical of Jihnna and Muslim league) can be found in his book Pakistan or the Partition of India. I have deleted that part. It was the Hindu Mahasabha Ideologue V. D Savarkar who exhorted indians to join the army and help the british. MK Gandhi also lent support to this move. not Babasaheb. I know all buddhists and sikhs are more than happy to dissassociate themselves from Hindus. The jains also dislike being called hindus. I am not taking away anyones right. On the contrary you seem extremely keen to deny distinct identity to Buddhist and Sikhs for your political reasons. Census matters are for the sake of mere convinience of counting. Census does not and cannot make any statement that Buddhism or Sikhism is a part of Hinduism. Thus there is no official view. --Yeditor 05:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Nids .. Please follow the link to read today’s Headline in India’s, national daily “The Hindu”. The Demand for Reservations for Christians and Muslims is becoming stronger and some state Governments ( Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu) are proposing them though the central government has not yet accepted the demand countrywide. Your argument of including Buddhists as Hindus on the basis of reservations thus falls flat--Yeditor 08:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Nids .. You are not being truthful when you say that Buddhists like to be called as Hindus. I would like to draw your attention to the 22 vows that more than 500,000 Buddhists took when the converted to Buddhism in 1956 in a grand ceremony at Nagpur. They are in this article. You should have at least read the full article before hitting the discussion page with your agenda. They show how vehemently the Buddhists have rejected Hinduism. For your information please read some of them below

1) I shall have no faith in Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh nor shall I worship them. 2) I shall have no faith in Rama and Krishna who are believed to be incarnation of God nor shall I worship them. 3) I shall have no faith in ‘Gauri’, Ganapati and other gods and goddesses of Hindus nor shall I worship them. 4) I do not believe in the incarnation of God. 5) I do not and shall not believe that Lord Buddha was the incarnation of Vishnu. I believe this to be sheer madness and false propaganda. 6) I shall not perform ‘Shraddha’ nor shall I give ‘pind-dan’. 8) I shall not allow any ceremonies to be performed by Brahmins. 19) I renounce Hinduism, which is harmful for humanity and impedes the advancement and development of humanity because it is based on inequality, and adopt Buddhism as my religion.--Yeditor 09:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

first of all, i hate hindu mahasabha and i know that even they lent support to british army for the second world war. i even dont like mahatma gandhi for many of his views, but it is wrong to accuse him that he supported the partition of indians in the war. whatever few literary texts i could read, i do not find any clear evidence of him supporting the war. he infact intesified the quit india movement in 1942. i dont see any reason why you cannot accept that ambedkar asked his followers to support the british army.

it is fact that he merged his independent labour party with the muslim league and espoused the idea of separate pakistan. the book that you are talking about, was written after he decided to settle in India. I think it would not be hard for you to accept that he had to write such book wherein he would ridicule pakistan, since he decided not to settle in pakistan. it wont be easy for him if he continued his same views.

as for the muslim and christian reservations, are you saying that they are demanding reservations on the basis of caste, or are they asking for reservations on the basis of religion. please tell me if they are asking reservations on the basis of caste. in that case it would make my reservation point useless and even ridiculous, (although i always thought that muslims and christians do not allow for caste differences, and support equality).

moreover, are you saying that these buddhists are different sect from traditional ones and anyone who accepts hinduism too, cannot be a part of neo-buddhist identity. i will then not try to harm there distinct identity, and accept that they are totally different from hinduism. but please point out that if you are saying these neo-buddhists are totally different from other buddhists.

also, can i ask you a personal question. since hinduism is not a well defined religion,(even an athiest can be a hindu), those buddhists who identify themselves as hindus too, can they be called hindu buddhas and included officially in hinduism. waiting for your reply. nids 12:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Now Buddhists and Hindus are totally separate religions. Please read 22 vows properly this proves the anti-Hindu stand of present Buddhist generations. Non-Brahmin Hindus especially Shudra Hindus don't accept any theory becasue Hipocricy is their heart. Dhammafriend 14:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


It continues to amaze me how these "self-styled Buddhists" tout ideals of Dhamma, Ahimsa and Shanti (faith, nonviolence and peace) and then go right around and express the most bilious (and, quite frankly, mentally diseased) hate and bile against millions of Hindus who are perfectly happy with their faith and who make no attacks on Buddhism, and, point of fact, REVERE the Buddha as a saint. In Bihar, there are millions of HINDUS who visit the tree of enlightenement to pray to it, and these "Buddhists" attack them. These people pervert the teachings of Buddha and exploit the political situation in India to fester bigotry and hate against Hindus in order to further their ambition.
I'm sorry if this sounds polemical,but these people frighten me more than the Islamic terrorists who bombed trains and murder women and children. It's like those so-called "Buddhists" who applauded Zia-ul-Haq when he ordered the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Hindus in Bangladesh and then went right around "Ahimsa" and publicly declared that Hindus do not deserve the same rights as others because they are "animals who deserve to get slaughtered". I appeal to these chauvinists to keep their views to themselves and not SOIL wikipedia with hate-speech and nonsense. This article has the most WP:OR and WP:NPOV violations that I have seen on wikipedia so far and statements that, if made in countries in Europe (with stringent hate-speech laws) would land them in prison like David Irving.I am NOT a Hindu and have no partisan bias when I say this, but there is no ideological difference between the touters of anti-Hindu hate and Joseph Goebbels, who demanded that millions of my people be shoved into ovens and murdered.Hkelkar 08:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Nids and I

One By one: regarding Gandhi. Most people Indians as well as westerners know Gandhi as the hero of the movie “Gandhi”. If I ask your to refer Dr. Ambedkar’s “Mr. Gandhi and the Emancipation of Untouchables” or “Ranade, Gandhi and Jinnah” , U will reject it as baised, so I am referring you this book“The Gandhi no body knows” by Richard Grenier. Originally written as a critique of the movie “Gandhi”, now this is regarded as Gandhi’s biography. You will be surprised what a loyal soldier of ‘Her Majesty’ Gandhi was.. If you read through the book you will find ample evidence of Gandhi’s unflinching support of every war effort of the British stating from his career in South Africa, Below is an extract

“To present the Gandhi of 1893, a conventional caste Hindu, fresh from caste-ridden India where a Paraiyan could pollute at 64 feet, as the champion of interracial equalitarianism is one of the most brazen hypocrisies I have ever encountered in a serious movie.

The film, moreover, does not give the slightest hint as to Gandhi's attitude toward blacks, and the viewers of 'Gandhi' would naturally suppose that, since the future Great Soul opposed South African discrimination against Indians, he would also oppose South African discrimination against black people. But this is not so. While Gandhi, in South Africa, fought furiously to have Indians recognized as loyal subjects of the British empire, and to have them enjoy the full rights of Englishmen, he had no concern for blacks whatever. In fact, during one of the "Kaffir Wars" he volunteered to organize a brigade of Indians to put down a Zulu rising, and was decorated himself for valor under fire.

For, yes, Gandhi (Sergeant Major Gandhi) was awarded Victoria's coveted War Medal. Throughout most of his life Gandhi had the most inordinate admiration for British soldiers, their sense of duty, their discipline and stoicism in defeat (a trait he emulated himself). He marveled that they retreated with heads high, like victors. There was even a time in his life when Gandhi, hardly to be distinguished >from Kipling's Gunga Din, wanted nothing much as to be a Soldier of the Queen. Since this is not in keeping with the "spirit" of Gandhi, as decided by Pandit Nehru and Indira Gandhi, it is naturally omitted from he movie."--Yeditor 13:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


"The Gandhi nobody knows" is an extremely racist rant cooked up by Grenier. It is full of factual errors ("Khilafat" is a mispronounciation of "Caliphate"?? Come on) and tantamounted to a hate-filled attack against all Indians (Westerners simply put all Indians as "Hindus", whether they are Hindu,Sikh, Muslim, Buddhist, or even Jewish). I seriously doubt that Grenier would even perceive a difference between Hindus and Buddhists. He'd just lump them all into "subhuman brown people", for all his hate and bile. He even went as far as saying that Islam was a "Western Religion" (odd, since today Neoconservatives argue the exact opposite and advocate bombing Muslim countries back to the stone age). The article has been thoroughly refuted by the publication below:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian/msg/38b451bdbfbefb61?

Titled :

"Why Gandhi drives the Neoconservatives Crazy".

Read it and be enlightened. In fact, the rebuttal is from the same neoconservative magazine from where Grenier published. Grenier was a neoconservative fanatic and would hate Buddhists EVEN more than he hated Hindus (since classical Buddhism preached nonviolence, and neoconservatives are extremely violent people and wish for war everywhere). Hkelkar 18:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

first of all, many of my questions have remained unanswered. please read my above post and answer them.

i know that Gandhi was a chamcha of britishers,(just like Nehru) and i can cite further examples which even you do not know. i know he was awarded the victorian cross for being loyal to british. and as i already told you that i hate gandhi for many of his views. what i did not know was that he supported the discrimination to the black majority of south africa. i will read this part for myself. and from authentic sources.

but are you denying that he intensified the quit india movement of 1942. are you also denying that he, at least in last years of his life, worked for the upliftment of untouchables and even given them the name harijans.

and why are you not accepting the truth about ambedkar merging his independent labour party with muslim league. there are editorials that refer to his support for separate pakistan and even separate dalitistan. this is even referred now a days, when the lower caste political leaders support caste based reservations on the basis of his comments of receding the demand of separate dalitistan in return for 15% quota. nids 01:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Could someone please explain the relevance of Ambedkar merging his party with the Muslim League? What do we learn from this?—Nat Krause(Talk!) 17:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Dr. Ambedkar never merged his party with Muslim Leaue. To understand his views about Muslims please read [Partition of India OR Pakistan]. In this book Dr. Ambedkar clearly mentions that Muslim State is danger and Hindu State is very dangerous. Because both the religions are based on blind beliefs. The Buddhist movement in India is becoming stronger to anti-Buddhist Shudra Hindus are writing false things. The Non-Brahmin Hindus are Shudra Hindus. These Shudra Hindus are the enemies of Buddhism. Dhammafriend 14:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

actually there is no relevance of this in the particular article. it was brought up for it was said that the views i want to represent here are similar to gandhi and hindu mahasabha, so i explained the truth about ambedkar too.nids 19:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Reservations for christians and muslims

I can tell you for a fact that the demand for reservations by these communities has been under that argument that even after they have changed their religion, their caste tag refuses to go and they still suffer discrimination at the hand of Hindus in public services (education, Jobs etc) because of their historical hindu caste . ( as all christians and muslims of were lower castes). I will search adequate references of John Dayal (head of Catholic association) who is championing the cause of reservations for christians and post it here for you. --Yeditor 14:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

you are wrong if you say, that only the lower castes converted to islam and christianity. i know many rajputs and other upper classes (including brahmins) who converted to islam and christianity. if they are denied reservations and only the lower caste converts to islam and christianity get the reservations, only in that case does it make my above point on reservation ridiculous and useless.

are you also saying that upper class hindus discriminated with lower class muslims and christians and supported the upper class converts.

as of now, no upper class buddhist convert gets reservation benefits. u only get reservation benefits if you were a scheduled caste before conversion.

nids 01:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear Nidhi, I think you are pretty much worried about reservation so I request you that don't change your religion. Change your caste. Become a proud Hindu Chamar Or proud Hindu Bhangi and take the benifits of reservation also tell the same thing to all your Hindu i.e. Shudra friends the simplest way to be a Hindu and also to get benifits of reservation. Dhammafriend 14:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I am talking in percentages.. When i say all, I mean most. lets not split hair. I dont have so much time to engage in a debate on everything under the sun. So please limit your discussion to the part you want to edit. Regarding buddhists, Before the mass conversion Buddhism was as good as dead in India. It was practiced in a very very insignificant number of people that to in very remote and inaccessible parts of the country like Ladhakh or few north eastern states. Thus it can be safely said that all the buddhists are so called Neo-Buddhists. there are hardly any "upper class" buddhists. a few arun shouries here and there do not count. Moreover the above demand for reservation is as made by John Dayal. I am only quoting him. --Yeditor 08:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

i also want to stick to the point. it does not matter what arun shourie says, but are u dissallowing a upper class hindu to convert to buddhism. moreover you said that there are going to be reservations for muslims and christians. i just wanted to know that will they be based on caste discriminations or religious ones. if and only if they are based on caste differences, does than it make my point useless. nids 16:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


Anybody can convert to Buddhism. But for Hindus 22 vows given by Bodhisattva Dr. Ambedkar are compulsory because they come from a caste ridden, degraded religious and very degraded spiritual background. Hindu Brahmin, Hindu Bhangi, Hindu Bania Or Hindu Chamar all are welcome in Buddhist fold. The Indian Buddhist are broad minded and always accept everybody. Today Buddhism in India is the fastest growing religion. Please read Riddles in Hinduism written by Bodhisattva Ambedkar to know the real truth of Hindu religion. Dhammafriend 14:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
So you do admit that Ambedkarite pseudo-Buddhists make special reservations for Hindus, which, in on itself, is a racist attitude held by the Ambedkarites.Hkelkar 16:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Thegreyanomaly and all anti-Buddhist people

User Thegreyanomaly the article "Indian Buddhist Movement" is about Religious movement which is growing in India slowly since last 50 years. If you are anti-Buddhist we certainly don't have any objection about your religion. You can be a Brahmin-Hindu if you are a priest by profession in any temple otherwise you are a Shudra-Hindu because all non-priest i.e. non-Brahmins are SHUDRA in Hindu Religion. In Kali Yuga Hindus have only two Varna as per the religious philosophy of Hindus. If you are from India then you might be knowing that Buddhism in India was totally killed. Some blame Brahmins Or some blame Muslims for that, it is a vast topic of study. I don't want to blame anybody. Hindu Castiesm, Hindu Untouchability and Caste based Graded Inequality became very strong after fall of Buddhism in Indian sub-continent and before British came to India. Education to all non-Brahmins was banned and the rigid Hindu Religious laws made by Brahmins like Manusmriti, VishnuSmriti and other DharmaShastras became the laws to govern the non-Muslim society.

British gave education for all and broke the anti-Human Hindu Laws. After Independence Dr. Ambedkar revived Buddhism in India. He also established "Buddhist Society of India" certainly NOT Navayana Society! So there is no meaning branding the movement as Navayana. Because the founder of India's Buddhist Revival Movement which is certainly against Hindu Casteism and injustice that Hindus are doing since hundreds of years called his movement as Buddhist Movement. Also Dr. Ambedkar said that 'He will convert whole India back to Buddhism' but he was killed just within 6 weeks after his conversion to Buddhism. Some people blamed Brahmins for his death. It is not sure how he died. I dont want to blame anybody. So you can discuss current Buddhist Developments in the article "Indian Buddhist Movement". About Hindu Caste and related things you better write to Hindu Articles Or Caste Related to Articles. If Navayana is a anto-caste publication then you should put that link in Caste Related article.

In India legal system we have Hindus, Muslims, Christens and BUDDHIST as different religion. Expecially our 2001 cencus gives more details about different religions population. We dont have any 'Navayana Buddhist' in whole India neither it is recognized legally anywhere. Officially we have around 1% Buddhists in India. This population unofficially can be 4% also because thousands of people are converting to Buddhism. But lets take official figures.

Caste is a problem of Hindus certainly not the problem of Buddhists. Be a contributor to wikipedia but don't just try to vandalise different articles. Dhammafriend 10:03, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Caste is as much a problem for Muslims (Ashraf/Ajlaf/Sayyid/Mojahir) and christians (upper caste priests/lower caste parishoners) as it is for Hindus see Indian Caste System for sourced edits to that effect (remember sources? Those things that peoper editors do?).Hkelkar 16:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Those Brahmin and Shudra so called Hindus converted to Islam has carried the Caste to even Muslims and polluted Islam with Hindu Casteism. The basic problem is in Varnas preached by Veda and DharmaShastra. But why are dragging Muslims here? The current debate is only about present status of Indian Buddhist Movement. We do not care casteism of Shudra Or Muslims. plese concentrate on Buddhist Issue dont mix with other issuse OK. Can you tell me which Varna Hinud are you?? Dhammafriend

Warning

This article is, as it stands, complete hatemongering nonsense. It is full of unsourced rubbish and weasel words. I am warning all parties that if they persist in using wikipedia as a soapbox to express false views and tout hate-speech I will bring admins into this matter and file a full request for arbitration. Please cooperate to build an objective and useful article that presents the facts without POV.Hkelkar 07:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


Above is false propoganda, This warning applies to you. Stop pushing Bhramin Pov. Yeditor 14:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

This warning applies to you. Stop being incivil and making racial slurs against people or you will be reported.Hkelkar
Buddhist Movement is strongest religious movement in India so the anti-Buddhist people especially caste Hindu Brahmins and their fellow Shudra Varna Hindu brothers always oppose any unbiased truth telling articles. It is my open challenge to the world community to come to India and see how different people from various castes e.g. Dalits, Nomadic Tribes, Bhangi and even Brahmin are converting to Buddhism to end caste system. The charges by all non-priest by profession i.e. Shudra Hindus are absolute false. It is my request to Arbitation Committee to look in the all the articles by Caste Brahmin and Shudra Hindus. Those wants to check the present status please come to India I'll arrange meetings and will give you live proofs also. I am a Buddhist and working among India's poorest masses like Untouchables. Our religious friends from Japan,ShriLanka, Taiwan and England are actively involved in Buddhist Movement in India. Dhammafriend 17:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Hkelkar please be specific to the points you want to change. Buddhism is the stongest religious movement in India. This year is the 2550th anniversary of Buddha and 50th anniversary of religious conversion day of Dr. Ambedkar. So please visit October 2006 toNagpur in India and see how thousands of people from several castes are converting to Buddhism with 22 vows. This shown the Dr. Ambedkar's castelesss movement is successful and Indians is once again converting to Buddhism also 22 vows make the anti-Brahmin and anti-Hindu stance very much clear. So don't feel bad about success of Buddhism in India. Don't be anti-Buddhist because world Buddhist are coming together. Buddhist from Japan, England, Taiwan, ShriLanka are propagating Buddhism in India. These people are helping to strengthened the Buddhist movement started by Dr. Ambedkar on 14th October 2006. This article discusses the present Buddhist religious activities in Indian Buddhism and its revival. So be a positive contributor if not then at least don’t show your anti-Buddhist sentiments. It is difficult for a Shudra Varna Hindu like you to understand the current Buddhist movement and how the Buddhist world is helping Indian Buddhist. Better understand your own Hindu Religion; especially Veda,Geeta, Varna and Hindu Caste system. preached by Hindu religious scripture. Also know that all those so-called Hindus who are not priests by current profession are Shudra by Varna i.e. VarnaShram Dhamra. So please understand all religions comparatively with all positive and negative aspects to create a religious harmony Dhammafriend 18:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Hkelkar i believe is Jewish. It hardly matters to him. Instead of unsourced, illogical, and imaginative rants about "Brahminism", why not find some actual sources from real writers/ historians to back this up. Buddhism declined because they couldn't argue with Adi Shankara, he crushed them in his debates, and because peace is not the best way to fight the Muslim conquest of the Indian subcontinent.Bakaman Bakatalk 01:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Don't try to divert the attenstion by making false claims. Why are you branding Hkelkar as Jew? It is Hkelkar who will tell his identity. If he is Jew then why is branding Buddhist movement in India as anti-Hindu again and again? Dhammafriend 10:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually I am Jewish, and am now going to report these ethnic characterizations as personal attacks.Hkelkar 16:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Or and weasel:New discussion

The 22 vows is unsourced and, as it is written now, is basically pure hatemongering. I give one last warning before I will report this to arbitration. Several other claims are unsourced.
Several weasel words in this article subtly trying to tout racist anti-Hindu dialectic.Hkelkar 16:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
The 22 vows may or may not be "hatemongering", but they are a quote from Ambedkar, which means that we are simply reporting it. As for the weasel words, can you give some examples?—Nat Krause(Talk!) 16:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
First of all cite a source for the 22 vows. The claim that the 22 vows make his anti-Hindu racism "clear" is uncited and POV. Several weasel words are below:
"These leaders argue that the actual numbers are considerably higher"?????? actual, probably etc etc. What the hell are these?Hkelkar 16:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Lets take only official and legal data from www.censusindia.net OK? Whatever legal sources accpet the Indian Buddhist population lets accept. So this point is also clear. Anything else? Dhammafriend 17:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
That still does not address the weasel words in this article.Hkelkar 17:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
"However, it remains to be seen whether this move will be able to successfully reinvigorate the Indian Buddhist movement.". "remains to be seen"????? By whom??? Who says so? The editor?Hkelkar 16:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't really understand your points. The word "probably" does not appear in this article. The word "actual" is not a weasel word. Is "However, it remains to be seen ..." intended as an example of weasel wording? I agree that it is not an example of exemplary encyclopedia writing; that said, however, it is entirely neutral and I don't see what makes it contentious.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 17:27, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
At best, it's OR because it does not cite the person or persons who "remain to see" anything.Hkelkar 09:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
The issue of 22 Vows was sorted out on Dr. Ambedkar article's discussion.please read there. So finally it was moved from Ambedkar article to this article. So why again same discussion? Dhammafriend 17:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
It's still unsourced here. I am not concerned with the Amdedkar article here. I am only concerned with this article and it's obvious hate-speech.Hkelkar 17:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Hkelkar, do you disagree that Ambedkar said these things? If not, we can provide a good citation in an orderly fashion, but there is no need to argue about it on the talk page. And, frankly, your continued references to "obvious hate-speech" in this article make you seem more than a little tendentious and border on trolling.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 17:27, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I want sources to that effect. Since wikipedia is not a reliable source for wikipedia, I want third party sources.
Do you assert or suspect that it is untrue?—Nat Krause(Talk!) 17:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
My assertions are unimportant. I want satisfaction of WP:Reliable Sources.Hkelkar 18:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Hkelkar and Nat Krause this year October 2006 is a 50th anniversary of Dr. Ambedkar's conversion to Buddhism. And WOLRD BUDDHIST Conferece is arranged in Nagpur. If kelkar Or all anti-Buddhist people who are unaware of the Present Indian Buddhist Movement can come and understand the status. Please visit www.jambudvipa.org for further details. Our British Buddhist Friends, FWBO www.fwbo.org and www.tbmsg.org has arranged the International meet. so Questions raised by Kelkar can be easily sorted out. Just to be anti-Buddhist is a mind set of Brahmin-Shudra Hindus. Also visit www.buddhistchannel.tv for current news and updates. Dhammafriend
Wikipedia is a place for proper and preferably scholarly edits. It is not a soapbox for linkspamming and religious proselytizing.Please take yourt preachings to a blog or a forum somewhere. You're annoying people here.Hkelkar 09:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Look, the fact remains that the editor who has been slanting this article seems to have an agenda of defaming Hindus. As long as the Indian so-called "Buddhist" movement is discussed on its own merits (as oposed to lashing out at Hindus) then it's fine. As it stands, I belive that it's hate-speech.I'm sorry if you find this "tendentious", but I would welcome any reasonable discussion on this matter, instead of Dhammafriends "tendentious" edits and polemical attacks on this talk page.Hkelkar 17:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Fine, let's have a neutral and non-tendentious article. What do the 22 vows have to do with this?—Nat Krause(Talk!) 17:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Where is the source for these 22 vows? Is it necessary to mention all of them here? I think it's necessary only to mention key vows and point the reader to the reference for the sake of brevity.Hkelkar 18:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Indian so-called "Buddhist" movement is popular?? On which planet? If it's do damn popular why do Buddhists form an insignificant fraction of the population per all reliable and verifiable statistics???Hkelkar
How significant is your command of the English language, that you have chosen to start critiquing other people's choice of wording? www.m-w.com describes popular as meaning "of or relating to the general public"; what this means is, a movement that is not restricted to a few intellectuals.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 17:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
The wording here is out of context. It indicates that Buddhism is a majority movement (popular in the more er "popular" meaning). I feel that this should be expanded to specifying the context in which the word "popular" is used to remove ambiguities.Hkelkar 17:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
"Buddha and Dhamma" is a Buddhist "Bible"? Who says so? Do Buddhists in Japan agree? Do Buddhists in Laos agree? Are Laotian Buddhists even aware of the existence of this so-called "Buddhist Bible"???Hkelkar 17:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you on this point.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 17:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
The Article is rlated to only Indian Buddhist and present Indian Buddhist Movement. Why are you dragging Japan, China here? Dhammafriend
Because you claim that it is the "Bible" (oh dear Gawds) for Buddhists ie ALL Buddhists ie even buddhists in other countries which is completely false and, quite frankly, gibberish.
"Proper Understanding of Buddhism"??? As detailed by Ambedkar??? Yeah,right! So the millions of Buddhists in China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Indonesia etc who haven't even heard of this Ambedkar guy do not have a proper understanding of Buddhism, is that it? Ridiculous!Hkelkar 17:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Good point. I took out that whole section.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 17:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
anti-Buddhist hate is too much in Brahmin Shudra Hindu minds. Dhammafriend
You don't seem to be too short on anti-Hindu propaganda either.Hkelkar 09:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
In fact, all this laughable content that was put there by a truly "tendentious" editor serves to demonstrate the cultish nature of this so-called Indian Buddhist movement.Like any cult, they deny the truth about Buddhism being a primarily non-Indian religion and try to establish writings by obscure writers (to most Buddhists in the world) as some sort of canon. This is exactly the kind of attitude held by the Mormons or the Scientologists.Hkelkar 18:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Mr.Hkelkar you are not the first anti-Buddhit person on this planet. the Indian Buddhist Movement is very strong and fastest growing religous movement on planet known as Earth. The country is India i.e. Bharat. For Statistical details over the period of last 50 yers please visit Census India site. I think all your question have got the answers ! The Language used by u like which planet etc.. shows you are full hate towards Buddhist so debate is a civilised manner. Nat Krause has initiated the talks in a good manner so you be also talk in a good manner. I do undertand Vanas Hindu Religion, Caste System, DharmaShastras and Hindu Religious lasws etc very well.Dhammafriend
I HAVE HAD ENOUGH!! Despite repeated warnings and a word from an admin you continue to attack me, calling me "anti-Buddhist", "Brahman", "Shudra" and what not. I am reporting this user again as warning him has clearly served no purpose.Hkelkar 09:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Contrary to your trollish rants here I am not an anti-Buddhist, nor an anti-Hindu, anti-Semite, anti-Muslim, anti-Christian, or anti-Scientologist, anti-Mormon, anti-Feminist, anti-Homosexual, anti-Martian, anti-Bahaii, anti-Zoroastrian, or anti-anyone. I TOO respect all human beings and all peoples of all faiths, cultures, and creeds. What I have trouble respecting are people who waste other people's valuable time and attack and characterize the ethnicity of users when they can;t make any coherent arguments. Particularly disturbing is that the said ethnicities or religious affiliations have absolutely no bearing on their edits on wikipedia. Please stop this RIGHT NOW.Hkelkar 09:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Please do not SHOUT, it is uncivil and doesn't make your point any clearer. Thank you. Mar de Sin Talk to me! 18:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if I got angry. It's just very difficult for me to tolerate obnoxious prosetylizing and virulent racism that comes from missionaries of any religion, and wikipedia is no place for such things anyways.Hkelkar 20:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

My Sources

I have cited sources that show that scholars have called Ambedkarite Buddhism navayāna. Dhammafriend refuses to believe that Ambedkarite Buddhism could be branded
It is true that Dr. Ambedkar played a very important role in reviving Buddhism in India so we respect him a lot and the Buddhist world also very much interested in his interpretation of Buddhism for a social cause. It is only a one part of mass Buddist Movement in India. All have come together. So people from Tamil Nadu like Sakya Group by Iyothee Thass, Dharmananda Kosambi, Ambedkar, Banglore Mahabodi Society by Acharya BuddhaRakkhita all compramises a true Indian Buddhist Movement. So we can't brand current movement as only and only movement of Ambedkar. Even British Buddhist who are settled in India have dedicated their life for development of Buddhism in India. Please visit http://www.tbmsg.orgDhammafriend
Dr. Ambedkar revived Buddhism in India so you can not brand is Old OR Neo! Its Buddhism. People from Europe /USA are converting to their own found Buddhist practices. All are Buddhist so newly converted people are not branded as neo ! Please also visit www.e-b-u.org. In Indian Context Buddhist from Ladakh, Assam, Maharshtra, Karnataka etc. are a fighting unitedly for Buddhist Revival. Do you know All Indian Buddhist Monk Association ? Especially for Mahabodhi Temple Liberation Movement world Buddhist are united. Buddhist monk from Japan Bhante Surai Sasai is doing best in Central Region of India Nagpur to mobiliese masses Dhammafriend 10:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
the fact is all Buddhism is branded something or the other and scholars have branded Ambedkarite Buddhism as navayāna. Ambedkarite Buddhism is the only Buddhist movement in India. Buddhists from Ladakh, Assam, or Darjeeling are ancestral Buddhist populations that did not get extinguished, hence, the "Indian Buddhist Movement" should only be applicable to Ambedkarite Buddhism, which has been called navayāna
Dhammafriend is stubborn and keeps reverting the article and removing statement "or Navayāna Buddhism (Pāli नवयान navayāna, literally "new vehicle")". May I put this back in, along with my citation.
Thegreyanomaly 02:20, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I originally posted this on Tom Harrison's talk page, but he said he needs a third opinion.
Gail Omvedt has called in Navayana in her book Buddhism in India: Challenging Brahminism and Caste and I've ssen it in the index of Reconstructing the World: B. R. Ambedkar and Buddhism in India by Surendra Jondhale and Johannes Beltz
Buddhist in India is a homogeneous society. I have told many times see the ALL INDIA BUDDHIST MONKs Organiation and MAHABODHI VIAHAR you will get that all are together. Also see MAHABODHI TEMPLE LIBERATION MOVEMENT and current upadates. Dhammafriend
Its known that Ambedkarite Buddhism does vary from the main 'ancient' sects, hence, it itself should be a sect and the last time I checked it is mainly Ambedkarite Buddhism that can be called an Indian Buddhist movement and scholars have called this Buddhism, Navayāna
Thegreyanomaly 19:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

The claims made in the caste-barrier section are all unsourced and, quite frankly, read like the proselytization of a preacher (Dhamma-thumper?).Provide cited sources to establish reliable statistics, or the section also gets axed.Hkelkar 20:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Thegreyanomaly and Mr.Hkelkar I dont know which Varnas you belong to, might be Shudra Varnas because only preist in temples are Brahmin rests are Shudras as per Vedic and Hindu religion. But we know that Brahmin and Shudra i.e. so called Hindus both are staunch anti-Buddhist people. So for your information I am a Buddhist Missionary currently in GERMANY. The Buddhist world has taken serious interest in Indian Buddhist Movement. I have told you many times that check the Indian Census, National Minority Commission of India reports but you people are not ready to believe even the proper resourced material. See how Buddhist population aand Indian Buddhist Movement is growing fast. These are Indian Govt. Resources so you MUST believe the legal statistics provided by India. I have greater and practicle experiece in working Slums Of India propagating Buddhism. Our British Buddhsit Friends as well people from Japan, Like Bhante Nagarjun Surai Sasai are helping us in India. Visit http://ncm.nic.in/ and http://www.censusindia.net/ http://www.fwbo.org http://www.tbmsg.orgDhammafriend
For a Buddhist you sure engage in spreading a lot of anti-Hindu misinformation. Stop linkspamming.Hkelkar 10:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Kelkar, Why do you expect him to provide statistic. Could you please provide me exact dates of when Vedas were written? when Manusmriti was written. Or just tell me what really "Hindu" means? How do you define "Hindu". I will provide all the information you need.Bodhidhamma

Dhammafriend and Truthlover

Dhammafriend (and Truthlover) has completely reverted [Indian Buddhist Movement[|this page]] to how it was prior to his/their ban. He/They did not only remove the navayana concept, which he/they question but also all the citations that cleared up citation neccessity's. I have reverted the page to how it was prior. Thegreyanomaly 23:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

It is also important to note that "they" reverted the 'official-style' referencing back to their informal previous citations, they also removed claims of dubious assertions and etc. the proof is [[1]], [[2]], [[3]] Thegreyanomaly 23:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Sir,

In what authority you are declaring that Indian Budhhist movement is Navayana? Do you have any approvals/references from the Indian Budhhist council/Society. ? The new name should be declared/approved only by those who practice buddhism/those who are from that region/those who are an authority in that religion from that region. Not any "tom-dick and harry"(My apologies if you find this word inappopriate, but i dont find any other word) can come and declare anything about our Indian Buddhist movement. If the Buddhists society decides that they should be called by that name then only it should be accepted.

If I proclaim the religion you follow as something else would you accept that?. Think realistically and in an appropriate way. Try putting yourself in others shoes and think how you are hurting other's feelings.? If you do not know how to respect other person's view you have no authority to write any buddhist article. Respect and love are the foundation stones of this religion. Please revert those changes back at it is vandalism of the property. If you have POV please discuss here and accordingly we will update this page. Ref: (Wikipedia's policy) If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it.--Bodhidhamma 00:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Dhammafriend/Truthlover/Bodhidhamma, you did not respect my religion, Theravada Buddhism. You continually call me anti-Buddhist because I recognize the fact that when I was born I was a Hindu Brahmin. Now why should I recognize your offense from Navayana. The Title navayāna was declared by Ambedkarite scholars and the last time I checked the Ambedkarites were the only growing Buddhist population in India. To an extent, I understand your plight with the term navayāna, but when you edit it out you do not have the right to remove claims of dubious sources, without provided a url as a source, nor do you have the right to deformalize the reference system placed on a page. Simply linking to an url is not proper. One must put it as a reference with the whole superscripted number as a link deal
Thegreyanomaly 01:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Mr Thegreyanomaly This was my first reply to you. I dont find anything disrepctful in it. If you really understand buddhism you must have read somewhere knowledge should be based upon perception, inference and valid testimony.(This is from Sankhya FYI) Not cooked stories or street side gossip.
If you are theravada buddhist, then you should have respected others views. becuase that is the basic foundation of buddhism Love and respect.
Please search on this page and find when I have called you anti-buddhist. I am trying to follow wikipedia's procedures and policies. becuase people take excuse of any such language/technical errors to divert the attention from real discussion.
Again, If you are Theravada Buddhist and do not belong to Indian Buddhist society, what authority you have to claim that the Ambedkarite movement is a navayana? Did any one from Ambedkarite community accept it? If I give you other name suppose "Tom" which is not acceptable to you, what would be your reaction.
Please think and answer insted of diverting the talk from the real topic.--Bodhidhamma 02:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

You are absolutely right that Buddhism at it's core is about love and respect and, above all else, the root principle of ahimsa. Then explain to me why Indian Neo-Buddhists raided Hindu temples in Karnataka a few years ago, vandalized deities and bludgeoned the priests to death?

Explain to me why, when the Taleban came to power in Afghanistan and demolished statues of the Buddha by explosive, not a peep was heard from the Ambedkarites and many Ambedkarites cheered with the Muslims at Malegaon when they expressed support for the terrorist Taleban?

Explain to me why the Islamist anti-Hindu hate-book "Hinduon ki Haqeeqat", written and distributed by Islamist terror outfit Lashkar-e-Quahhar is endorsed by many Neo-Buddhists.

Hkelkar 02:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

HKelkar, Please focus on the topic we are discussing. Do not bring irrelevant issues here. This talk page is for Indian Buddist movement. We can make lots of accusations on each others. Which would lead us nowhere. Stick to one point before you start/jump another point. I am not responding to accusations/concerns because I do not want to divert our attention from the issues we are disucssing here. --Bodhidhamma 17:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Bodhidhamma, art thou not Dhammafriend/Truthlover? -Thegreyanomaly 22:59, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


Claims by Thegreyanomaly and Hkelkar

The user Hkelkar claims he is 'Jewish'. The user Thegreyanomaly claims he is ex-Brahmin and Thervada Buddhist. But both are not coming forward to discuss the present real Indian Buddhist Movement. I have invited them for personnal discussion manytime but both are running aways. To clear your views about Buddhist Movement in India I can arrange meetings and discussions through our Buddhist organizarional members in USA, Europe and India. I am a Buddhist Missionary and working for Buddha Dhamma propagation in India. These days I am travelling and working for Dhamma Mission in Germany. So be bold to come forward and discuss the Indian Buddhist Movement. This October 2006 at Nagpur, India thousands of people wil be converting to Buddhism in India to escape Brahmin-Shudra Hindu Casteism. Dhammafriend 14:03, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

For some reason the Dalai Lama seems more Hindutva than convert seeker [4]. I wonder why?Bakaman Bakatalk 03:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Naturally the terrorist propaganda machine milligazette truncated the article. Here is the original full article with background and further events:

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/south/01/25/india.lama/index.html

Hkelkar 04:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

In fact, based on this we can stop WP:AGF with milligazette.Hkelkar 04:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Another ref of the dalai lama condemning activities of people like Dhammafriend/Bodhidhamma (self-admittedly Buddhist "Missionaries"):

http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/2003/10/9_5.html

Hkelkar 04:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

In the Reference section, there is a link to an unsourced POV article from voi.org, which appears to be a site more familiar with Hinduism than Buddhism. This article is not an appropriate reference because its neutrality is highly questionable.

It illustrated the Viewpoint of some scholars regarding neo-Buddhism so can be linked as a partisan viewpoint. Per WP:RS it can be qualified.Hkelkar 12:24, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Let the Hindu views also come forward about the Indian Buddhist Movement. So reference to VOI does not make any problem to the Buddhist article. Ambedkaritebuddhist 10:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Wiki guidelines suggest that a strict adherence to facts rather than opinions is best. Therefore, the opinion, especially from an obviously non-neutral source like voi violates this guideline. If it is included, then it would also be seemly to include a complete contextualization of voi, and the author's documented support to acts of violence against religious minorities.

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