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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by W7KyzmJt (talk | contribs) at 00:52, 10 February 2018 (Overturn). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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9 February 2018

Adria Airways destinations

Adria Airways destinations (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I'm starting this DRV following the suggestion made by Spartaz in their closure. The AfD follows the closure of a discussion held at AN, in which the closure of a VP discussion was challenged. All the relevant links are included in this AfD discussion. Jetstreamer Talk 20:28, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Overturn the original decision and keep all these articles. These lists are notable, as they reflect an essential portion of airline operations. These articles also have the potential to include the history of the introduction of services for a number of reasons (political, geographical, economical, etc.).--Jetstreamer Talk 20:28, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn; keep all; as mentioned before airline destinations are the core of an airlines operation and show the scope of coverage. I don't see how the WP:NOTDIR arguement holds water; the Eiffel Tower is in Paris, that's a fact. Air France flies to Paris, that's also a fact (supportable by primary and tertiary references). These lists neither tell you how to book flights, how these destinations are connected, nor provide detailed scheduling information; they are essentially useless for any sort of travel guidance; but do contain an unrivalled source of historical information surrounding how airlines evolve over time. For comparison; destinations are essentially an airlines product. How does this list differ from the lists being deleted?. (As a side note; this could have all been discussed in the AfD rather than closing it and punting it here.) Garretka (talk) 20:42, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and keep all. There are quite a few issues here.
  • The closer's main argument is basically that the VPP discussion establishes a "wider consensus" that these articles should be deleted. As a participant in the original discussion, I was (naively) unaware that it was supposed to establish policy, and thought that it was asking for opinions (so I didn't go around and challenge everyone's argument). Now the "wider consensus" of fewer people than participated in this AFD is used to state they must be deleted. Surely this AFD shows there is not truly consensus on this issue?
  • A policy issue is where deletion of articles should be decided. The standard way to delete articles that do not satisfy the WP:CSD is through discussion at AFD. This discussion, while starting under a bit of a cloud of "no consensus should default to deletion", which isn't covered by any policy I am aware of, should be the main place that decides whether these articles should be kept or deleted. Unlike the Village Pump discussion, where a random subset of editors shows up (or not), AFDs are widely advertised in many neutral places (WP:DELSORT, wikiproject sites etc.) "Some people at the Village Pump think these articles should be deleted" is a very good reason to start an AFD, but it is not a particularly good reason to disregard said AFD and to pretend the Village Pump has priority.
  • There is another underlying policy issue, which is what the limits of WP:NOTDIR are and what type of lists are acceptable. Traditionally, this has been decided on AFD, with many great listcruft purges in the mid-noughties.
  • In the AFD, many of the delete arguments were refuted. Unfortunately some of the arguments driving the VPP discussion were not exposed as being poor (for example, the claim that lists are a burden to maintain -- as they generally are maintained well, somebody thinks to seem it is worth it. There is usually no evidence that people devoting time to fringe topics would contribute to something else if we delete their topics).
  • As a final point, I do not think closing a discussion as "send to DRV" is in any way helpful. —Kusma (t·c) 21:06, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse. This VPP was very clear. Given how many editors have contributed to these articles I imagine there will be a lot of overturn votes (for numerous reasons) - they should be counterbalanced by the numerous no votes at the VPP. I generally think information of this nature isn't encyclopedic, it belongs on the relevant airline websites. Szzuk (talk) 21:27, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Add. The editors at VPP are much more likely to have a neutral stance than those involved in the AfD. Should Afd's follow policy or should policy follow AfD's...Szzuk (talk) 23:15, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The "policy" was specific to the topic, though, which is why we're in this mess to begin with. This isn't a discussion about a new broad policy which affects these articles. SportingFlyer (talk) 00:09, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and keep. AFD is the sole forum for regular deletion discussions on specific articles. When specific articles are targeted for deletion, readers and authors must be given fair warning. The AFD process achieves that through the AFD tag. In contrast, large portions of the community in general, and people working on covering the airline industry in particular, were not aware of the VPP discussion going on. This means that VPP is not a fair forum for discussing specific article deletions, and should be given no weight in the AFD. Sjakkalle (Check!) 21:49, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and keep. The burden is on the person proposing deletion to show that this falls under WP:NOTDIR. I do not believe that has been shown in this instance; the VPP consensus simply seemed to agree it fit WP:NOTDIR without providing any arguments as to why it is more a directory than a valid list. Furthermore:
  • These lists have survived bulk deletion requests at least three times in the past (2007, 2007 again and 2015), and no major policy change happened between the last one in 2015 and now (i.e., no giant purge of WP:NOTDIR articles);
  • These lists are relevant, exhaustive, and verifiable;
  • These lists are only a yes/no of whether an airline flies or has flown to a specific destination. They are not a list of routes or a list of timetables and do not change all that often. When they do change, verifiable third-party news reports are easily found;
  • There does not appear to be any sort of test regarding whether WP:NOTDIR applies in the instance of a list, just "it is not a directory" - but I do not view these as a directory, especially since almost every destination is verifiable;
  • These lists are not WP:TRAVEL as the information does not belong in a travel guide, as shown by the refusal to add them to WikiVoyage or WikiTravel (past deletion log);
  • Even if a deletion is not overturned, several of these lists contain a narrative of destinations and therefore should not be deleted until the narrative text can be fully incorporated into the main article. WP:NOTDIR is being applied to many articles that contain more than just a list of destinations. SportingFlyer (talk) 22:42, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to Keep - Overwhelming consensus to keep. The VPP discussion before this AfD that apprently this close was based on, was WP:CONLIMITED to put it mildly as that discussion was open for over 23 days with only 21 editors giving definitive opinions whilst this AfD was only open for just over 8 days with over 40 editors giving their opinions, a clear demonstration of the VPP being a tiny group of editors coming to their small group conclusion without any regard to community consensus on a wide scale. Remember, the very basis of WP:CONSENSUS, WP:EDITCONSENSUS is when an edit is made and not challenged, that would be implied consensus. These articles have been edited since 2004 with only a few AfDs over the years and all have been ended in definitive "keeps". That is almost a decade and a half of consensus and there is no real evidence consensus has changed. Even the one "endorse" opinion above acknowledges "how many editors have contributed to these articles" confirming the long-standing consensus achieved for over a decade. A VPP buried in the bureaucracy of WP seems to have been an attempt to sneak a conclusion of a limited group of editors by the much larger community consensus of these articles. If someone desires certain articles to be deleted, they need to AfD those specific articles, not by a VPP discussion in which most editors don't even know exists.
  • Endorse. This isn't the venue to rehash arguments about whether these articles should be deleted, as I see some above users doing, presumably summoned from WP:AIRLINES. Whether you agree with the outcome, Spartaz did a fine job of assessing the balance of consensus of a dialogue that took place over multiple discussion boards. AdA&D ★ 23:21, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: re summoned from WT:AIRLINES; may I point out this page receives rarely one view per day. Any notifications to discussion on this page have largely gone unseen to the involved community who may not be aware of VPP or any discussions that may have or are occurring. As pointed out no arguements were presented as to how these lists violate WP:NOTDIR other than "violates WP:NOTDIR"; and no arguements have been presented against those who bring valid points as to how this meets GNG and does not violate NOTDIR. I've spoken my piece, but I feel this whole process has been mishandled from start to finish. Garretka (talk) 23:50, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and keep. I have no interest in rehashing the arguments about whether the articles should be kept or not. I do, however, feel that we should not set a precedents of allowing "Wikipedia policies" to be set at the level of granularity of "this article should be kept," because it allows the usual AfD mechanism to be circumvented by getting consensus for deletion without notifying article contributors.
Furthermore, I feel that the fact that people may be coming to this discussion because of a notification on WP:AIRLINES is irrelevant, given that this clearly falls into WP:APPNOTE: "An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following: The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion. ..." CapitalSasha ~ talk 23:35, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rahul Verma (social activist)

Rahul Verma (social activist) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

He is a grass root worker whose work is making significance change in the life of destitute in India. The New York Times recently did a front page story on him, in this article it is clearly visible that he remain media shy for so many years. His work is praised not only in India but around the world. http://www.nytimes.com/images/2017/12/29/nytfrontpage/INYT_frontpage_global.20171229.pdf

One Man’s Stand Against Junk Food as Diabetes Climbs Across India ( online addition) https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/26/health/india-diabetes-junk-food.html Same article was featured as a two page article in printed addition of Gulf times http://gulfnews.com/culture/people/a-father-sues-to-curb-junk-food-as-diabetes-spreads-1.2150937 Here is video featured about his work by CNBC TV 18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZYVav8_r2o HelloDolly89 (talk) 10:12, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • I don't follow the "delete" versus "redirect" choice. User:DGG? It seems a bit of an knee jerk over reaction to an unjustified spinout. I'd have !voted "redirect". I think there is a defensible conclusion that consensus was against leaving a separate article. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:21, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn. The refs in the AfD look strong but appear to have been ignored, at worst it is a searchable term. Szzuk (talk) 19:24, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to "merge", leaving it to editorial discretion how much text to merge. The nomination was extremely weak – it doesn't matter for notability what most sources say, what matters is whether some have substantial coverage. The !deletes seem non-policy-based to me since they all presume at least some mention at Uday Foundation so a redirect (or merge) would be indicated. Finally, it seems rather difficult to argue that a foundation is notable but the person who set it up, named it. and runs it is not notable. However, our guidelines can be read so as to reach that conclusion and so !votes following that line of thought should be respected. Thincat (talk) 20:40, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have only just seen the new references (which aren't relevant to whether the AFD was closed properly). If the DRV nominator had waited longer for a reply the deleting admin might well have suggested creating a new article (or draft). Thincat (talk) 21:32, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Waited longer? Nonsense. The nominator gave me nearly an entire half hour. :) I stand by my decision at the AfD (the "delete" votes largely rested on the sound foundation of WP:NOTINHERETED while the "keeps" included such weak stances as "He deserves to be on Wikipedia" and a simple, unsubstantiated "meets notability requirements"). I saw and continue to see no other way the debate could have been closed. That said, it's been nearly a year so if additional sources have since cropped up and the subject's notability has become better established, I have no objection to trying again. – Juliancolton | Talk 22:31, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to NC overturn to merge as a second choice The policy-based argument for deletion is weak IMO (not notable other than his foundation is like being not notable for anything other than playing baseball). The sources are limited but outstanding. The numbers are split. I'm pretty sure I'd support merging honestly, but I don't think the numbers get us there (even if we treat the deletes as merge !votes, it's only 6 to 4). And again, the front page of the NYT is pretty solid. there is no way this was a delete. Hobit (talk) 23:38, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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