Talk:Karen Dotrice

English or British?

There is some discussion about which is correct. While I can't seem at present to track down her current home, I recall reading somewhere that, while she was born on Channel Islands in the UK, she has made her home in England since she was very young. For the moment, I'm keeping "English" because of a quote from Dotrice: "I think [Walt Disney] really liked English kids. He was tickled pink by the accent and the etiquette. And when I was being very English and polite, he would look proudly at this little charge who had such good manners." [1] Any help so that we can get this one correct would be appreciated. RadioKirk talk to me 19:51, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not wholly sure that you can base the statement "calls herself 'English' rather than 'British'" on the above quote. To me, what the quote implies is that Walt Disney liked English kids. Without wanting to make broad generalisations (but I'll go ahead anyway), most people from outside the UK couldn't tell you the relationship between England and Guernsey. British English is the foremost language in both; there is no discernible difference in accent in the way there might be between an English person and a Scottish person, for example (again, making generalisations). So, to all intents and purposes, someone from Guernsey would quite easily fit Disney's mould for 'English', despite the fact that they would not, in fact, be English. So just because Dotrice relates how she may have appealed to Disney due to her 'English-ness', that doesn't mean that she herself would regard herself as English.

Of course, having lived in England most of her life, she may well think of herself as English. I just don't feel that that assumption can be made based on the quote about Disney.--Benwilson528 09:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a debate about a non-issue. Much of the momentum for it comes from an editor who doesn't seem to know much about the subject, but doesn't like to be edited by those who do. The salient points are as follows. It's normal to attribute nationality in the introduction to biographical articles. KD was born in the Channel Islands. The Channel Islands are British, but not part of the United Kingdom. Those born there are British Citizens, just like those born in England or anywhere else in the United Kingdom. So it's not vandalism (as recently claimed) to describe KD in the intro as a British actress. Nor is there any evidence that sense of nationality within the UK is a documented issue for KD, or anyone else outside of this discussion. It's a non-issue in the outside world. Forget it and move on. Countersubject 14:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not a matter of like or dislike; it's a matter of trying to do that which I believed was correct (and, that was not the vandalism to which I was referring). Nevertheless, I'll defer to those who claim "to know much about the subject". :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 14:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

That's just not good enough. If you don't know much about a subject - and your edits show that in this case you don't - and you're not prepared to do even the minimum of legwork required to become better informed, then you shouldn't indulge in this kind of edit war. As an Admin you should know better, and should set a better example.:-) Countersubject 14:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The opening query in this very section demonstrates only part of the legwork I did on the subject, which I found quite lacking. Please read WP:AGF with all possible dispatch; you also need desperately to learn the difference between an edit war and a good-faith reversion. Edit: Please also note that each of my edits was also intended to remove vandalism; if your issue is the clarity of using "and" rather than "/" in my edit summaries, I'l try to remember that when I'm working quickly to fight legitimate vandals... RadioKirk (u|t|c) 14:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

i would say she is british--Chickenfeed9 18:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Opening paragraph #3 states "Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.)" This argues powerfully—if not inarguably—that English is correct. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 19:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Now a Featured Article :D

Updated: My sincere thanks to Marknew (talk) for the recognition as a Good Article, and to Raul654 (talk) for subsequent Featured Article honors. This article didn't even exist before 12 December 2005, and these honors could not have been achieved without the hard work of and/or persistent motivation from JoaoRicardo (talk), AndyZ (talk), Mikkerpikker (talk), Rossrs (talk), Monicasdude (talk), Wackymacs (talk) and Johnleemk (talk). Thanks as well to Banes (talk), Azathar (talk), Gflores (talk), Staxringold (talk) and Extraordinary Machine (talk) for their fac votes. I (and others, no doubt) will continue to improve on this article where possible. RadioKirk talk to me 18:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the Good Article tag now that Featured Article status has been achieved; all Featured Articles are good articles, so we don't need a separate Good Article box. Well done for achieving FA status in such a (comparatively) short period of time! --Marknew 10:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, and thanks again to everyone who helped! RadioKirk talk to me 13:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

linking years

I noticed a lot of the years are linked. This guideline suggests not to link individual years. However, some people disagree with it, so I'm asking first if the article should keep the links. Honestly, I don't think a lot of the links are that helpful and just add clutter. Comments? Gflores ^Talk 17:37, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

In most cases, I've tried to link to pages that people might be interested in following, such as [[1978 in television|1978]], as opposed to simply linking the year. Otherwise, I've followed what I've seen in other articles: The first instance is linked, the rest are not. Personally, neither choice would bother me. (Edit: Unless relevant to the article, the links are gone.) RadioKirk talk to me 17:57, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Filmography wrong way round

the filmography is upside down on this article, should be in chronological order (see all the style guides). please reverse it, or this article will be removed from FA list. Zzzzz 11:09, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Done - this article shall remain Featured for many years to come! --Marknew 11:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

cool. Zzzzz 12:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Piping links for nationality

Hi, I notice that you have been piping nationality links to the "X people" articles, eg. [[Scottish people|Scottish]]. Having worked on thousands of biog articles, primarily European and North American (but also a fair few Antipodean), I can say without hesitation that the overwhelming consensus is to pipe thus:

• [[Scotland|Scottish]]
• [[France|French]]
• [[United States|American]]
• [[Mexico|Mexican]]
• [[Sweden|Swedish]]

If this is doubted in any way, perhaps we could consult the good folks at Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography? (Apart from anything else, those "X people" articles are utterly, utterly appalling rubbish in my experience: full of POV, edit warring, AFD's and many other such delights: probably because they tend to focus on pseudo-ethnicity theories, rather than civil society, which is the strength of the country articles.) --Mais oui! 10:09, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought this was discussed months ago; anyway, if there are problems with the "x people" articles, we should fix those articles, rather than pipe a link to an article which does not illuminate the intent of the text. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 04:04, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Edit: Is there a link to this "overwhelming consensus" and, perhaps, why the issue wasn't mentioned during this article's FAC? RadioKirk (u|t|c)

---

That happened after i tried following your advice with other articles - it's very frustrating PMA 04:51, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Hm... interesting... RadioKirk (u|t|c) 04:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Channel Islands, UK?

The Channel Islands aren't part of the UK. To quote the article on the Channel Islands:

The Channel Islands fall into two separate self-governing Bailiwicks.
Both the Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Bailiwick of Jersey are British
crown dependencies, but neither is part of the United Kingdom.

--Patteroast 01:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Wiki cannot cite itself; if you have a published, reliable source, feel free to note it in your edit summary if you remove the data. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 01:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I have just edited this, as per the Encyclopaedia Britannica article: "The islands are dependencies of the British crown (and not strictly part of the United Kingdom)". Iain 01:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll let it stand, but is there a link that I don't have to pay for, in accordance with WP:CITE and WP:V? :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 01:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Will HM Government do? :-) http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page823.asp --Marknew 13:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Brittania is being cited here as a reputable secondary source. Many such have to be be paid for (e.g. textbooks and journals). However, if the subject isn't one you know much about and you would like to access a source for free, try the CIA world factbook article on Guernsey, which includes the following: The islands were the only British soil occupied by German troops in World War II. Guernsey is a British crown dependency, but is not part of the UK.. Countersubject 13:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Those both are perfect. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 18:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Lead in

I dunno if this has been brought up before, but the lead in section seems extremely short, by featured article standards (see Katie Holmes, James T. Aubrey, Jr., etc. at Wikipedia:Featured articles). Is there anything else at all that can be added, even if it's just repeated info? Right now, it looks a little weak. Axem Titanium 02:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The current lead actually resulted from the WP:FA process. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 03:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, per the Main Page, I added a line. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 03:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

IPA

Dotrice (dō-'trēs) This needs to be changed to IPA. --Kjoonlee 05:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Feel free; I never got around to looking it up. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 05:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Problem is, I can't be sure what dō-'trēs should sound like, because I only know IPA. ;) --Kjoonlee 06:12, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the macron means to pronounce the vowel like the letter itself... /dəʊˈtriːs/ ([dəʊˈtʰɹiːs] ?) or something, methinks -- Amorette 06:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

A good guess, but I think it would be better if there were an audio/video recording on the web somewhere that can be used to verify the transcription. --Kjoonlee 09:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not know how "Dotrice" is pronounced, but I have only ever heard /dəˈtriːs/. Pronunciation of the first syllable with a long o looks like an Americanised pronunciation to me — surely, as the actress is British (in as much as she was born in the British Isles), a UK English pronunciation should be given, unless, of course, the first syllable is indeed pronounced with a long o. If this is the case, the UK English vowel would indeed be /əʊ/ and /dəʊˈtriːs/ would be appropriate (/dəʊˈtʰɹiːs/ is more accurate, but unnecessarily precise). Making this change. — Paul G 10:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, /dəʊ/ is quite British already, as Americans tend to pronounce that as /doʊ/ instead... but anyway, I think /dəʊ/ is a more carefully articulated version than /də/ and it doesn't have to sound long (cf. a word such as "domain") -- Amorette 17:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

But how can we be sure /dəʊˈtriːs/ is valid? Speculation would count as OR/unverifiable info and would have to be removed per WP:NOR and WP:V. --Kjoonlee 11:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

It's doh-TREESE; she says so herself in the audio commentary on the cited DVD. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 13:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is an audio file I lifted from the audio commentary. As soon as someone acknowledges the pronunciation, please reply so I can remove this link. :) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 18:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Betty

I have just realised there is a glaring mistake in the article....it was her sister Michelle who played Betty in "Some Mother's Do Ave Em" and not Karen. Can you fix this, please?Luckyles 11:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Edit: Apparently, it's been removed... RadioKirk (u|t|c) 13:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism in television section

There appears to be some "jive" in one of the later sentences. I don't know what the original should be; perhaps an Admin can do a rollback?LessHeard vanU 13:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone has seriously vandalised this article.

"In 1984, Dotrice retired from show business to focus on motherhood; she has fifty three children from twenty two marriages. She was named a awesome mom with all her fifty three kids and twenty two marriages in 2004."

I mean, come people, be serious. NOT funny.