Talk:The Iron Throne (Game of Thrones)

Let's try to keep this article balanced

Obviously the show is going to be divisive because of it's widespread & cultural appeal, and because of strong fan reactions to a major character's story arc last week. I sat up and read about 20 reviews last night, and I am going to try and read more of the sources here when I have time. Several of the ones posted here by "Starship.paint" on May 20, were not actual 'reviews,' but were early 'recaps' and 'blog-style debates,' where random negative quotes appeared to be "cherry picked." The more positive quotes from actual reviews appeared to be glossed over. So, I replaced some recaps / blog-debates with the actual reviews (The New York Times, for example), and added quotes from more reputable sources. Also, the often criticized Rotten Tomatoes (now owned by Warner Brothers), that is frequently, too easily sourced here by less experienced editors, should not be used as a 'singular source' for citing and balancing critical receptions. SportsEdits1 (talk) 02:26, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Restored reviews from Chicago Sun Times, New York Times, TV Guide, A.V. Club. SportsEdits1 (talk) 03:04, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

SportsEdits1 - please add a source when you restore your AV Club review. starship.paint (talk) 07:21, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

While "bittersweet" is a finely balanced word in itself and lots of people are saying it (because lots of people are saying it), I don't think it helps anything here to repeat it four times. I suggest we choose one critic to state the obvious. I don't have a preference, but will probably delete the three that aren't first before anyone who cares picks one (don't worry, there are tons of suitable candidates left in the wild). InedibleHulk (talk) 03:08, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

I just deleted a summary of a review that was based around an arbitrary snippet from the headline. Literally the only part of the article the reviewer didn't write, and the only part we explictly attributed to her. It should go without saying, but be mindful of that. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:33, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

To be fair, maybe she did write it somewhere beyond the two paragraphs people can read without a subscription. Not that these kinds of source are illegal or anything, but given the heaps and heaps of freely-readable stuff on this topic, there's really no urgent need for them. Stick to what's verifiable, especially when others might wonder if the "cherry-picked" words originally meant what the editor used them to say. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:39, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

Before my edit of today, we have 9 reviews: Chicago Sun-Times (+), The Guardian (+), Rolling Stone (+), The Washington Post (+), The New York Times (James Poniewozik is not rated), IGN (+), The A.V. Club (+), Newsday (-), USA Today (-). Rotten Tomatoes rated 6/8 of them as positive, and 1 was not rated. Since the approval rating by critics was around 50%, the balance is extremely off here. Clearly, more negative reviews need to be added. Also, aparat from the Guardian, all the rest of the reviews are from American sources. We need more global views. starship.paint (talk) 05:48, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Here's what we can do. Remove IGN and The New York Times' James Poniewozik for not being top critics on RT. Change the Washington Post's positive review to a negative one by Alyssa Rosenberg (top critic). Add top critic global reviews, both positive, from Australia's The Age and UK's BBC. Add more negative top critic reviews for balance: Canada's Globe and Mail, America's The Atlantic and Detroit Free Press. starship.paint (talk) 06:12, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Result: 6 positive top critics - Chicago Sun-Times, Rolling Stone, The A.V. Club (USA), The Age (Australia), BBC, The Guardian (UK). 6 negative top critics: Newsday, USA Today, Atlantic, Washington Post, Detroit Free Press (USA), Globe and Mail (Canada). starship.paint (talk) 06:14, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

If the "positive" reviews praise more things than the "negative", they should get more space and citations simply for having more to tell us. And vice versa. Be careful not to just add six variations of "the writing felt rushed" or "Peter Dinklage was superb" when one would say as much. There's more to writing than numbers, believe it or not. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:16, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

We'll see when I add them. starship.paint (talk) 06:36, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't know what that means, but it sounds cool and I look forward to finding out. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:49, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

SP, it's nothing personal, but I am just going by what you posted on May 20.[1]. Some of these were recaps, and not official reviews, and you seemed to only pick out negative language, and barely picked out any wordings at all from any of the more reputable reviewers, top critics, or any positive reviews. It seems like you have a bias here WP:BIAS? You are also relying too heavily on Rotten Tomatoes (NBCUniversal, Warner Bros.) for an encyclopedia, which often misrates reviews (ex. Myles McNutt's (A.V. Club) "The Bells" review (B-, 80) counted as "rotten" when should have been "fresh" last week, among others), who have far more internet critics (who go by likes on their pages), rather than established critics. Top critics are more reputable and should carry more weight. This is also English (US) wikipedia. Your count above is also incorrect: The New York Times and The Washington Post reviews you listed as positive, they were in fact, very, very "mixed." SportsEdits1 (talk) 07:21, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

@SportsEdits1: - that was a review from India. This is the English language Wikipedia, not the United States Wikipedia. We don't have only American reviews here, there are many countries that speak English too. Rotten Tomatoes listed some reviews as fresh (positive) and rotten (negative). I'm merely following what they say. starship.paint (talk) 07:28, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Chicago Sun-Times, Rolling Stone, The A.V. Club (USA), The Age (Australia), BBC, The Guardian (UK) Newsday, USA Today, The Atlantic, Washington Post, Detroit Free Press (USA), Globe and Mail (Canada). Still biased? If you think the A.V Club is negative, you're free to find a positive one. starship.paint (talk) 07:30, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

The A.V. Club one was uncited and tagged, so I deleted it. Nothing for or against it, just needed a citation. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:49, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

@SportsEdits1: - please add one positive review for balance (seems like 5:6 now) starship.paint (talk) 07:54, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

@SP, my mistake about English wiki, that was meant to be struck. "The Bells" reception section also needs more balanced improvement. More balanced edits, but I would like to see you use more of the actual quotes, than breaking them down so much. It almost "sounds like" the reader is being mislead. One can always add a source if one gets left off by mistake than just removing the whole quote. Too many people ripping down sourced content on this article. But question: how did you justify removing The New York Times review? SportsEdits1 (talk) 07:56, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

No, no. No artificial balance. Thank you. See the subsection below. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 09:47, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

@SportsEdits1: - well The New York Times one wasn't listed in RT so I have no indication if that person is a top critic. Do you want to restore it? Since there is a space now, we could. RE: The Bells... that's a separate issue for that talk page. starship.paint (talk) 08:07, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't see why we can't have nice things. Even if they come from someone primarily butthurt about not getting the story he wants, praise for cinematography and scoring is still valid criticism, I think. Are we splitting everyone up into two camps for counting's sake and don't want to blur any lines? InedibleHulk (talk) 08:10, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

If that article was primarily positive, or evenly mixed, we could have nice things. He said 2 nice things and 12 troublesome ones, then we mention the 2 nice ones? starship.paint (talk) 08:13, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

I mentioned two nice ones. You mentioned however many of the troublesome ones you apparently wanted to. That is balance. Without it, how is anyone supposed to learn this episode contained a cool shot and some interesting ambience? Without watching it or surfing the web, I mean. How an individual source for an article is biased shouldn't influence the leanings of the whole article (or section). We're only meant to mirror their facts. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:27, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

@SP, sorry, wasn't trying to get down on you, or anyone. It sounds much better. I originally added A.V. Club with IGN because those are two top "internet critics." I may take out Newsday? Also, if you use other articles as a template, a lot of controversial media subjects are organized with the positive review, mixed reviews, then negative reviews, respectively clumped together. SportsEdits1 (talk) 08:37, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

@SportsEdits1: - please please cite your AV Club. Thanks. starship.paint (talk) 09:01, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: Ok. Do you think The Age, Globe and Mail, or The Atlantic should stay? Which one is more reputable? SportsEdits1 (talk)

@SportsEdits1: - Why can't all of them stay? Age is Australian and top critic on RT, Globe and Mail is Canadian and top critic on RT. Atlantic is top critic on RT and is a prestigious publication. starship.paint (talk) 09:07, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

@InedibleHulk: - the old WaPo review, now back in the article, says "swelling imagery". starship.paint (talk) 09:18, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Not sure why you're telling me this. Is this supposed to adequately convey the cool dragon shot or interesting soundtrack choice? If so, it doesn't come close. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:32, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

• @SportsEdits1: - based on the text at present, I'm counting 7 positive reviews and 6 negative ones. 1 positive one should be on the chopping block then? Rolling Stone? Or.... I could add Slate, as a negative review. 7/7 or 6/6? [2] top review on RT. starship.paint (talk) 09:20, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

If "eh" counts as positive, I suggest chopping the Detroit Free Press review. If she doesn't care enough to form an opinion, we shouldn't care to share her apathy and indifference. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:41, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

I've done so many edits I've probably exceeded 3RR, so I won't be reverting this. But what's grrrr as an edit summary SportsEdits1?? If anyone finds out where I've exceeded 3RR, ping me. I'll self-revert in my next edit to Wikipedia (if I'm offline, I'm offline). I totally agree with InedibleHulk on this, a synopsis (after showing us a nightmare for eight seasons, ''Game of Thrones'' finally dares to dream of spring) is not a review ("quiet, and quietly lovely, affair"). starship.paint (talk) 09:39, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

• @InedibleHulk:@Starship.paint: You two need to chill. *lol* Thanks everyone though. I'll change it, but if the critics choose the words "bittersweet" that's their prerogative... but that is also reference from George R.R. Martin. He stated years ago that he was planning to make his ending (in the last book "A Dream of Spring") "bittersweet." Also, there is nothing in stone to say the reviews have to be numerically perfect. And again, I we shouldn't use RT as a primary source for consensus. SportsEdits1 (talk) 09:44, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Of course he said it years ago. The attribution, like the word, has been used to death since. A thousand writers can make the same "clever" allusion, and it still won't bear repeating a thousand times. The first paragraph got to it first, that's good enough for people who wondered if he was lying to know he wasn't. Find me something in life that isn't bittersweet, though. It's not particular to or defining of this episode, just often associated with it. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:58, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

@SportsEdits1: - if we’re not using RT as a guide for what the critics are saying, then what shall we use? Shall I add 10 negative reviews based on some arbitrary view in my mind? starship.paint (talk)

False balance

SportsEdits1, you need to stop adding false balance to this article. Our reception sections are not for you to artificially balance because you don't like the reception, including the Rotten Tomatoes rating. With this edit, we can see Dcfc1988 removing the following WP:Editorializing piece from you: " 'The Iron Throne' received mainly favorable to semi-favorable initial reviews from top critics. Early fan reception, and the response from internet critics were mixed." That piece was not sourced in the least. And I don't know why you thought your "as predicted before the finale's airing, the initial reactions to the final episode were divisive" piece sourced to this source was appropriate. With this edit, we can see Templeowls17 reverting you, stating, "undoing previous editor; cited a desire for 'balance' but reception sections are not meant to be balanced. They are meant to be informative, and this user simply shifted negative reviews to the last paragraph and created 4 positive paragraphs. Hardly reflective of an episode that is currently 48% on RT." Templeowls17 is absolutely correct. And I was going to revert you once I logged back on, but I was glad to see that Templeowls17 had reverted you. WP:Due weight is about giving most of our weight to what the majority of reliable sources state on a topic. It's not about what being neutral means in common discourse. And review aggregators like Rotten Tomatoes can help assess critical consensus. But looking for sources that specifically report on the reception to this episode are better. For example, there are some reliable sources that state that this episode received mixed reviews. You mentioned Starship.paint adding recaps? And? Those recaps are also reviewing the episode, offering opinions on how things played out.

You speak of the Rotten Tomatoes top critics or maybe some other top critics based on your personal opinion; do see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Film#Critical response, especially the "Rotten Tomatoes Top Critics" section. Yes, this is not a film article, but what MOS:FILM states about the Rotten Tomatoes top critics is still valid. Going by what is stated there, I don't see why you are prioritizing the Rotten Tomatoes top critics or any top critics. For example, that MOS:FILM section states, " 'Top Critics' scores are inconsistent with the aims of aggregator scores on Wikipedia. The purpose behind using aggregators is to provide readers with an overview of how a film was critically received, and focusing on an exclusive subset of the available criticism may not reflect the prevalent view. 'Top Critics' scores may not be notable. The general 'All Critics' score is more widely reported than the 'Top Critics' score, and is the statistic for which Rotten Tomatoes is generally notable."

I am tempted to revert back to Starship.paint's original setup, right before your edits to the section. Reverting to the WP:Status quo while editors discuss and achieve WP:Consensus on this matter is fine. But I'll leave it as is for now. Instead, I'm going to go ahead and alert Talk:Game of Thrones, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film to this matter for further input. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 09:47, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Umm, the four of us (including Starship.paint) just "worked together" for the last 3 hours to improve this article, using "talk." This works better than simply "hammering policy" I find. False Balance? I simply used the word balance as an expression to keep things more "objective," and hopefully to curtail any edit-warring. Apparently, there has been a lot of backlash between fans over a character arc. Many of the official reviews had not been published yet three days ago. And "templeowls17" did "rush to judgement" reverting, in fact, and removed several sources as stated (New York Times, A.V. Club, Washington Post, etc.) without using talk, article history, and making little contributions. Seems like we got it handled already. SportsEdits1 (talk) 10:46, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Wording in some of the plot summary

Hi there!

I rarely edit on Wikipedia so I wanted to bring this to the talk page first before making any edits. I'm sorry if this is the wrong thing to talk about here or if I'm being too nitpicky!

I noticed a few changes in summary wording from yesterday to today and I wondered if it wouldn't be correct to characterize Jon's killing of Daenerys as 'reluctant' because he didn't want to do it and tried to convince her off of her plans until he saw she was resolved? Likewise, I wonder if the phrasing "stabbing her to death" is best because it makes it sound like she was stabbed multiple times instead of once to the heart.

I'm sorry if this is not the proper place to put this or if it's not the right thing to discuss on a talk page. I was hesitant to make an edit on such a high profile article. Thank you for considering this!

Anatashala (talk) 06:08, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

See how your reluctance made you not do it? That's why "reluctantly" doesn't work for Jon Snow, who did it right on time. He was "conflicted", "troubled" or "guilty" about it, but didn't hesitate. As soon as she felt trusted, loved and had her eyes closed, bam! Right in the ticker. One shot is normally all it takes in mercy killings, executions or assassinations. The paragraph doesn't make Jon sound like he's enraged, sadistic or nuts going into this, so I didn't think readers would be confused. It used to say "stabbing and killing her", which could equally sound like 75 times if you're so inclined to believe that.

But yeah, I'm not attached to my wording. As long as the facts stay true. Might be helpful to note his side of the pre-kiss debate, if we want to get your idea of reluctance across. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:29, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much for replying!! Your response made me laugh!

I see what you mean! But that's because I'm a scaredy-cat ;) I would argue 'reluctant' is still applicable to his action of killing her because people reluctantly do things quite often. I've reluctantly gone to the blood lab, even though I didn't want to because needles suck. I've reluctantly agreed to surgery, but I still had to do it.

Or if not, would there be another word you'd agree to? As for the kiss, I don't know if that was reluctant as it seemed genuine because, per Kit Harington, he loves her. But anyway, thank you so much for responding!

Anatashala (talk) 06:41, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

There's "begrudgingly", but it's long and full of Gs. I'd use it "cautiously". That might work, too, and is aesthetically less fugly. The kiss was realer than he's given all season, at least in the story. Didn't mean to suggest otherwise, just meant we could get the begrudging caution over if we mentioned what he'd suggested before (forgiveness, consideration of others' values, not firing on future human shields). InedibleHulk (talk) 06:55, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

Could also devote a paragraph to the scene between Jon and Tyrion. He did more than warn him, he's pretty much the mastermind. Duty beats love, love beats duty, yadda yadda. Nothing too wordy, but enough to convey the semblance of an internal struggle, second-guessing or whatever it's called. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:00, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

Oh, you're right! He's the one who was like, "Do it, just suck it up and do it or she's going to murder everyone." Should I give it a try? I'll try to summarize that in a few sentences. If it gets too wordy, please feel free to edit it down.

And yes, I see what you're getting at! I do like one of your former suggestions, 'conflicted', and wrote a draft of the paragraph with a few changes. How is this for the Dany/Jon paragraph? Is it too much?

In the throne room, Jon confronts Daenerys, who justifies her burning of children by blaming Cersei for using them as human shields. She will not forgive Tyrion or the Lannister prisoners, arguing that their executions — and the liberation campaign — are necessary to establish her vision of a good world. Jon tries to convince Daenerys off of this campaign but Daenerys is resolved, convinced only she and Jon are capable of determining what is good. He reaffirms his eternal fealty to her and they kiss, during which a conflicted Jon stabs and kills her. He weeps over her body when Drogon arrives. Drogon melts the Iron Throne and carries Daenerys's body away. Jon is arrested.

Anatashala (talk) 07:03, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't love the part where he tries to "convince her off of" it. I'd say "tries to dissuade her" (using pronouns to save space). Essentially fine, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:53, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

Great! I'll exchange that phrasing for yours. I wrote a paragraph for the Jon/Tyrion scene. I'll add that in but if it's too wordy, not accurate enough, please edit as you see fit! :)

Anatashala (talk) 07:58, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Anatashala - I thought the guideline was 400 words for a TV episode plot. It's now 489 from like 402. starship.paint (talk) 08:10, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't know there was a hard and fast limit. As seen in the discussion above, I was adding changes to one of the paragraphs and adding a paragraph for the Tyrion/Jon scene. I apologize.

Anatashala (talk) 08:14, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

It's alright. It's at MOS:TVPLOT Episode articles should have a prose plot summary of no more than 400 words. I'll work on cutting the sections starship.paint (talk) 08:21, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Aim for wordiness, not whole facts! InedibleHulk (talk) 08:24, May 23, 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Starship.paint and InedibleHulk for your help and guidance!

Anatashala (talk) 08:28, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

@Anatashala: - I've done my best to trim it, Hulk's done some as well, it's 422 now. starship.paint (talk) 08:59, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Starship.paint I very, very much appreciate your efforts both to include my thoughts and keep to the plot summary limitation! Thank you to you and InedibleHulk! Anatashala (talk) 09:03, 23 May 2019 (UTC)