Talk:Bombing of Guernica

I've translated this from the Spanish-language Wikipedia. The only intentional changes I have made are (1) tightening up some wordings and removing some redundancies, (2) removing a few excessively POV phrases, and (3) clarifying a few references that I imagine will be less clear to an English-speaking audience than to Spanish-speakers.

The article is probably still more POV than is generally acceptable for the English-language Wikipedia, but I leave it to someone else to begin work on that. -- Jmabel 04:40, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)

---

I am so frustrated. es:Bombardeo de Guernica had a long edit history and looked great (if a bit POV). Then, after putting about two-and-a-half hours into a translation, I went looking for some relevant English-language external links and came across [1], which appears to have most of the same content. It seems very unlikely the Spanish-language wikipedians had permission to use this, and the parallel content goes way beyond fair use. I've also posted a notice on Wikipedia:Copyvio and its Spanish-language equivalent. -- Jmabel 06:58, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)

Factual Question

The page states :

he also remarks that the official German account of this part of the war, "The War in the North", falsely stated only 7.956 tons of bombs were dropped on Guernica.

That seems just strange as above the tally is 22 tonnes : are these 8 tonnes (7.956 kg) or what ?

Please destroy this when checked, thank you.

Arms factory

We should mention that Guernica held (and holds) arms factories. I don't know if it should go in the Guernica section or the Motivation one. -- Error 01:37, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

We do say, "Among the few buildings spared were the arms factories of Unceta and Company and Talleres de Guernica". We could expand on that. Clearly, the Condor Legion had no interest in destroying the armaments factories in a town they hoped soon to capture. -- Jmabel 03:47, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

What arms factory holds Guernica, Error?Idiazabal 18:27, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

He doesn't say an arms factory holds Guernica, he says (accurately) that Guernica holds an arms factory ("holds" in the sense of containing, perfectly good English usage). As I pointed out, the specifics are in the article: the arms factories are/were Unceta and Company and Talleres de Guernica. They were specifically not bombed. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:32, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

Well, but actually Guernica don't have any arm factory. That's what I was pointing out. Sorry for my English but it's mainly self-learned. Idiazabal 11:14, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Are you using "actually" in the English-language sense (meaning "in fact") or as a literal translation of the Spanish "actualmente" (meaning "at the present time")? I personally don't know if there is currently an arms factory in Guernica, but definitely at the time Unceta and Company and Talleres de Guernica were there and were arms factories. I've seen that statement from sources of very varying politics. I want to make sure you follow what the article says on this: this in no way indicates that the parts of Guernica that were bombed were legitimate military targets. The Condor Legion appear to have deliberately avoided hitting these two facilities because Franco's forces intended to capture and use them. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:04, Oct 30, 2004 (UTC)

Idiazabal is technically wrong but user Error is wrong in the sense of POV. Gernika had one or two short weapons' factories, like many Basque towns (it's a traditional Basque industry). But the factories and the bridge (another self-justfication of fascists for the massacre) were left intact. The German bombers strictly bombed the town center (homes) and left the periphery (industries) intact. --Sugaar 07:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Salas Larrazabal version taken by Cesar Vidal.

About the death toll described in this almost negationist version of Cesar Vidal we should notice that at the end Vidal bases his numbers in Salas Larrazabal version, who was himself air fighter pilot and member later of the Division Azul, the little army sent by Franco to help Hitler in Russia. By itself it should be enought to put it under heavy suspicion.

But besides we can compare the death toll in the Durango bombing, which was recounted by the authorities then and resulted in 265 deads plus wounded. While the area of destruction, the amount of exoplosives and air forces was considerably less than in the Guernica opperation, it is totally impossible that the death toll was minor in Guernica than in Durango.

To take Cesar Vidal version, which is a negationist more of the large serie of negationist versions we've known, is not acceptable in my point of viow. In fact, there can be made a complete chapter with the numerous negationist versions and attempts made by different Spanish governments, starting by the Franco regime and ending with Cesar Vidal and Pio Moa. (Oh, the version about the Bilbao firefighters not being enough diligent was also from Franco's air forces official Salas Larrazabal.) Anyway, thanks Jmabel for your great work. Idiazabal 18:25, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I would welcome other well-cited descriptions of these obviously controversial events, and I'm more than glad to help with translation and cleanup of Spanish-language texts. I would hope that whoever does this is careful in their citation of source material, and is clear where their version comes from, instead of simply writing a different version into the narrative voice of the article and claiming it as "truth".

Given that Vidal is clearly describing war crimes and deliberate tactics of massacre, I take it that by "negationist" you just mean in terms of death toll? Again, I would truly welcome other cited sources on the death toll; on the other hand I'll admit that I would oppose an uncited "but other sources say...", because it is unverifiable. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:44, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

I spoke yet with Blas, buber.net author and Basque descendant himself, about the issue. If you looks in the footnotes there you'll see that Vidal book is totally based in Salas Larrazabal's one, from a book he wrote in 1977 after Franco death. I say negationist in the sense of the large history of negationism that have tried the different Spanish diplomatics, including the 1972 letter in the New York Times. Now obviously they know it is totally impossible to maintain in the old versions: 1.-that the proper Basques burned Guernica, 2.-that it was cause the Bilbao firefighters didn't went, etc. etc. (Although Vidal points anew that of the firefighters.) Then now they follow with the demytification procces, saying that there were no more than 150 deads, which is easily rebatible.

But only a date. Salas Larrazabal was a Francoist official and went to Russia with the Division Azul, the Spanish contribution to Hitler army. Certainly he was a first hand witness, as his testimony is valuable, but while oneself had clear that he was seeing it through a Francoist eyes.

On the other hand, Cesar Vidal (and his friend Pio Moa) is a member of the Fundation National Francisco Franco, as it was clearly noted in the credits of the web site of the fundation. (Although due to the controversy and protest that the implication of the Spanish Ministery of Culture funding, his names were erased from the credits just at the loose of power of Aznar's party.) But his opinnion tendencies are widely known in Spain.

So, I believe that Salas Larrazabal historical description is valuable, as Von Richtoffen's, but pointing out who he was. And of course the death toll part is just but pure negationism, as can be noted not only with a comparation with the previous bombing of Durango, were in a more limited bombing the officially recounted inmediate death toll was 260 (I had to look the concrete toll, wounded and posterior deaths out,) it was totally impossible that a operation made a crowded market day, with persecution of the people flying out, bombings of little villeges on the surroundings and rural houses, and a total destruction of the ville would resulte in a mere 150 death toll. That's negationism.

Perhapps the best way to correct the article would be to write a chapter dedicated to the multiple negationism attemps made by the Spanish governments and diplomacy, being Vidal's one the last. (Pio Moa is even more radical than his friend Vidal.)

Idiazabal 11:45, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

For other points of viow just go to my User:Idiazabal and see there the European Union On-line[2] website's version I've cut and pasted.

Idiazabal 13:49, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Here you have another an educational place with a lot of different citations of the time which also reflects the mainly accepted toll.[3] Idiazabal 20:48, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Having read the relevant chapter in Vidal's book when I wrote the relevant passages of this article, he hardly seems "negationist". He describes what is clearly a war crime, emphasizes that the attack was clearly not aimed at the few legitimate military targets in the area, makes a case that the fact that they did not hit the Gernikako Arbolaor or the Casa de Juntas refutes any excuse that the bombing was merely imprecise, and presents but generally rejects the claim that the firefighters from Bilbao were less than diligent. Furthermore, he places the responsibility as lying at least as high up as either von Richthofen and quite likely with Franco himself.

I'd have no problem at all with us citing numerous sources for their estimates of the number of dead, as long as we do it in a style where it doesn't overwhelm the article. The article as it stands does not cite Vidal on the number of casualties. In fact, at the moment there are no citations on the statement about number of casualties. We simply say,

Estimates range from as few as 120 dead to as many as 10,000, with the consensus standing at about 1,500, mostly old people, women, and children.

I assume that you are not arguing with either the high or low estimate as existing (citations for these would be an improvement) and that your argument is that the consensus number is too low. The Spartacus site you cite (a generally very excellent site, I've used it a lot: its politics are clearly to the left, but I've found it uniformly scrupulous and scholarly) gives the number of dead as 1,685. That's really rather close to the 1,500 the article currently gives as a consensus. However, it's also suspiciously precise for such an obviously unknowable number, suggesting precision beyond any possible accuracy: anything past the two leading digits of an estimate like this is noise. Your own page says "at least 1,650 people (this figure was given by the Basque government)". Again, this is exactly 10% different than what I say is the consensus number. I have no problem adding the statement that the Basque government said that there were at least 1,650 dead. Do you have a citation on this? The link on your user page leads to a French-language page about World War I, which is of no obvious relevance. (I presume you are right about what the Basque government said, but a citation would still make this stronger; it would be especially useful to know when the Basque government said this.)

Based on what you've given me, and without the benefit of further references, I'd change the article to say,

Estimates range from as few as 120 dead to as many as 10,000, with the consensus standing close to the 1,650 that the Basque government of the time gave as the miniumum number of dead. The dead appear to have been mostly old people, women, and children.

Jmabel | Talk 00:41, Oct 30, 2004 (UTC)

The Basque government counted that toll, but with the Basque government there were several people, i.e. George Steer, war correspondent and British agent who wrote a book published in 1938, "The tree of Guernika, a study on modern war".

I have no problem with the great work you've made. Only I explained a little bit about Vidal, Salas Larrazabal and the Spanish negationist efforts. Idiazabal 15:25, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I take it, then, that you agree that the small edit I am proposing covers the issue? I would suggest that Vidal and Salas Larrazabal both probably merit articles. You might try writing those in the Spanish-language Wikipedia, and I will gladly translate them. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:40, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)

YES SUPERB ASTONISHING. 10,000 DEAD IN A VILLAGE OF 5000. EXACTLY, HOW VERY OBJECTIVE. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.54.243.250 (talk • contribs) 2 November 2006.

None of the numbers cited even approach 10,000. Stop setting up straw men. - Jmabel | Talk 02:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Who was Salas Larrazabal

Let's see who was that Salas Larrazabal (Captain General when he retired in 1972) from whom Cesar Vidal builds its assertions: Salas Larrazabal. Idiazabal 20:38, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Two excelent articles and some more pictures[4] Idiazabal 15:17, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Market day

What is the citation for newly added statement about some historians doubting it was a market day? The only cited source for the article says it was; if there is a citation for this, it certainly belongs here, but "some historians" is no citation, and if someone can't do better than that, I'm inclined to revert. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:26, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Monday would seem to be market day now, and that is hardly likely to have changed. See: [5] quota

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A year later: someone is clearly contesting this again in the article, again with only weasel words rather than citation.

However there is still debate over this situation. One group argues that there was no market because the Basque government had order markets to stop since it endangered the civilian population and Gudaris to the block the roads. The other group argues that the government had issued the act forbidding markets at a moment when not everyone recieved it on time and still went and that the Gudaris only blocked main roads when the majority of people used rural roads paths. Despite the arguments the compromise decision was that 'it would have been a market day'.

Note that there is no indication of who "one group" and "the other group" are, nor between whom a "compromise decision" has supposedly been made. I believe that if this cannot be cited for, it should be removed. It was added by the same person who removed all casualty estimates over about 300 dead; I have restored the latter. - Jmabel | Talk 05:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

IT WAS CITED OVER AND OVER AGAIN WHICH YOU KEPT REJECTING. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.54.243.250 (talk • contribs) 2 November 2006.

Both were (and are) cited to Larrazabal, but there os no indication of who the "groups" were. That is, at best, very partial citation: citing someone else's weasel words, or writing a weasel-worded version of what your cited source says (I can't know which without seeing the source). Jmabel | Talk 02:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Citations

Can we have citations for the Condor attacks, and payloads? Rich Farmbrough. 19:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Rich, can you be clear on exactly what numbers you are concerned with seeing cited? At least some of this is in the cited César Vidal piece. You may find my edit summaries from June 2004 helpful, because I made some mentions of where I got my material; I'm afraid this was mostly written before we were generally being careful about including citations in articles. - Jmabel | Talk 06:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Endless chain

• Guernica, Lidice, Coventry, Oradour-sur-Glane, Dresden, and now Lebanon, an endless chain! Excelsior, 18:59, 14 August 2006

POV addition

In the section Motivation of the attack:

Because this assault on Guernica contradicted General Emilio Mola's earlier plans for the pursuit of the war in this region, Vidal argues that von Richthofen must have had either approval from Mola or a direct order from Franco himself. Additionally, by default, the entire Condor Legion force was under direct Franco's command. It is almost impossible that the Germans decided to hit such a target on their own. Most of the views about a 'test-bombing' have been created afterwards mainly by the European press based on discussions on the might of the bomber as an absolute weapon. Besides, the ridiculous claims of Franco that it was the 'reds' that burned Guernica, show that he himself tried to justify this act without ever making any insinuation for the Germans even long after the end of the war in Spain.

Everything in this paragraph is a recent addition and (except for the first sentence of the addition) strikes me as uncited claims and POV argument: "It is almost impossible… Most of the views… ridiculous claims… show that he himself tried to justify…". If this can be turned into something cited from reliable sources in the next few days, fine. Otherwise, it should be removed as against policy. (Understand, I don't disagree with what it says, but my agreeing with an opinion does not make it encyclopedic.) - Jmabel | Talk 19:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

In fact that's what most historians (all non-fascist ones) think. I don't have time to gather sources now but it's not POV. It's just unsourced by the moment. (Note I'm not the author: I have not even edited this article a single time). --Sugaar 07:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

It's a shame!!!

An article that only proposes a franquist version of the bombing? No more than 300 casualties? The official number of the basque government was, and still is, 1654! Just read these two well documented articles (both, at least, cite its sources!) :

• La destrucción de Guernica, Herbert R. Southworth (Ruedo Ibérico, Paris, 1975).
• La destrucción de Guernica, Gérard Brey (Tiempo de Historia nº 29, avril 1977).

82.231.18.179 15:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It was the result of a recent anonymous edit. We have long had the official number in the article, someone removed it. - Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

LOOK IT IS QUITE SIMPLE. IT IS NOT A FRANQUIST VERSION. STOP BEING SUBJECTIVE, THAT IS THE OFFICIAL NUMBER. LARRAZABAL'S GUERNICA STATES 250 AND I DURAN'S AIR WAR IN THE SPANISH CIVIL STATES 300. STOP ADDRESSING IT AS FRANQUIST VERSION BECAUSE IT IS NOT. THE FRANQUIST VERSION STATES IT WAS BETWEEN 12 AND 20 AND THAT IT WAS CAUSED BY THE REPUBLICANS. TOO WELL DOCUMENTED, FROM 1975 AND 1977, THOSE DOCUMENTS ARE OUT OF DATE!!! USE THE SOURCES FROM 1995 - PRESENT. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.54.243.250 (talk • contribs) 2 November 2006.

There is no one unique Franquist version. Their estimates at the time of the attack were in the 250-300 range. The low two-digit numbers you allude to merit mention as examples of propaganda, but no more. They are obviously as ridiculous as the straw-man 10,000 you introduced above. If you can find an actual source for the ridiculous high estimate, then it would also merit mention as (presumably leftist) propaganda. - Jmabel | Talk 02:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

10,000 IS A BULLSHIT NUMBER. IT WAS SARCHASM. NO WONDER MORE PEOPLE REALISE THAT WIKIPEDIA IS BS.

My apologies, then, for presuming even a shred of good faith on your part. I'll try not to make that mistake in the future. - Jmabel | Talk 06:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

It has now been added to the article again, anonymously, possibly by the same person: "The most recent study, made by several academics, have estimated the deaths between 250 and 300. Figure espoused by academic centres and governments." I'm not going to tix the bad grammar and the sentence fragment; I will point out that "espoused by academic centres and governments" without naming a single academic centre or government is a supreme example of weasel wording. I have my doubts, because when someone edits like this (the latest edit that added this also removed the statement that the Nationalists appear to have made no effort to count the victims, which I have now restored) it does not encourage me to believe a word of what they say, and I don't have access to the source in question. - Jmabel | Talk 00:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I presume (and correct me if I'm wrong) that this Larrazabal is related to the "Francoist official" Larrazabal who "went to Russia with the Division Azul", alluded to above. If this is true (1) it isn't obvious why we should separate his estimates from others that are characterized as coming from the Francoist side and (2) it certainly seems odd to give him the uncontested last word, supported only by weasely remarks. - Jmabel | Talk 00:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I will add: it is possible that all of this is correct. However, the fact that the (presumably one) person who is advocating it is doing so by repeating the same minimal things over and over and saying nasty things about the other editors, myself included. This is no way to make a case for anything. - Jmabel | Talk 00:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposal: Move to "Bombing of Gernika".

This would be in accordance with the native name (Basque) and the official name, which is Gernika. "Guernica" is a Spanish spelling and it's only adequate in the case of the "Guernica" artwork of Picasso, that has it as official name. It could be arguably justified when speaking in Spanish but even in that language, the native spelling of Basque toponyms (specially when they are official, as it is the case) is gaining ground systematically.

Hopefully in the Basque Wkiproject we will soon discuss general guidelines for standarization. But so far, as I understand it, the policy is: (1) English name when available (example: Biscay), (2) official name when it exists (example: Vitoria-Gasteiz), (3) native local name when the other two don't apply. --Sugaar 08:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a case where there is a well-known name in English that trumps local usage. It probably doesn't with reference to the town, but it does with reference to the bombing. I'd venture that most educated native English speakers if they just see the word "Guernica" will think of the bombing (or the Picasso painting). "Gernika" is more likely to conjure the town itself (although fewer people will recognize it at all). But as long as there is a redirect either way, it is probably not a big deal. - Jmabel | Talk 17:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The Picasso's painting has that name: "Guernica" but the town has a different official spelling. For example it's been seen in Basque the claim "Guernica Gernikara" meaning the Guernica to Gernika (asking Picasso's painting to be in the Gernika Biltzar House, instead of Madrid). I think the Spanish spelling should be kept for the painting but not here, as it is contradictory with geographical names used elsewhere in Wikipedia.

The painting is after all, a powerful symbol but also an anecdote.

For those using the old-fashioned (and politically meaningful) Spanish spelling, there will always be a redirect. --Sugaar 08:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, as long as there is a redirect, it is no big deal. - Jmabel | Talk 03:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm doing it then. --Sugaar 14:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Confuse use of the term "Nationalist"

The term is ambiguous: it can refer to the Basque Nationalists (on the republican side) or be a soft term for the Fascist side (who called themselves "nationals", but not nationalists). I sugest that it is replaced by unambiguous term "fascist". --Sugaar 08:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Fascist is a poor choice for a neutral term, especially at this early date, because many on that side were not fascists. We've been through this argument in a lot of articles. Writing on my own, not for Wikipedia, I might deploy this word rhetorically, but it is definitely a POV word in this context. - Jmabel | Talk 03:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly. The term fascist was then specially used for the Italian version of it but has since then become a catch-all term for all simmilar political movements, specially those of the same period and geographical area. The regime that was deposed by Hitler in Austria in 1938 was fascist (not nazi though) and the same is said of many other European regimes copied from the Mussolinian model.

In fact, the term was alreay used by many people in that period that found the need to describe all those simmilar regimes under a single term. Fascism and fascist have been the term of choice of most historians and other people since then and has only been aregued against by nitty-picky apologists of Francoism and some equally nitty-picky fascists that like to emphasize the little differences between those so simmilar movements.

Constitutive of the Spanish fascism (National Movement, as was called later) were Falangists (closest to original fascism, few but very militant), right-wing Carlists (only in Navarre actually, fused with Falange in FET-JONS) and the bulk: conservatives that moved en masse to this fascist idelogy when it was constituted. A former conservative that supports a fascist regime and is affiliated to a fascist party cannot be considered anymore just a conservative, as this term implies somehow being in favor of democracy. So the real choice is between using generalistic fascism or using a more specifict term like (self-given) national-catholicism (which emphasizes the main diffeence between Fracoist regime and other more laicist fascist regimes: Christian fundamentalism). --Sugaar 14:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Rivers

"Rivers Mundaca and Oca" was changed to the Uradibai stuary. I'd guess that "stuary" means to say "estuary", but even so, the change is a bit confusing, can someone explain? - Jmabel | Talk 01:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

That was me. I was just changing redirects when I saw that and realized it was wrong:

There's no "Mundaka river": the firth/estuary of Mundaka or Gernika is that: an estuary, not any freshwater river. Probably the original editor was Spanish speaker and confused terms, as river and firth are very simmilar in Spanish (río and ría). Maybe even the source used "río" (river) instead of "ría" (estuary).

The river Oka does exist but is a short river that is part of the Urdaibai basin. Neither the estuary (Mundaka/Gernika estuary) nor the river (Oka river) have an entry in Wikipedia, but Urdaibai (a biosphere reserve) has. That's why I made the change that way.

I thought to keep both names but found it really not helpful. To avoid disputes between Mundaka and Gernika for the name, the estuary and the whole basin is often called Urdaibai ("boars' river" probably), and that's the oficial name of the reserve.

You monitor everything, really.

Now that you know the reasons, correct it as you wish, but, please, do not wirte again "Mundaka river" becuase that's a factual inaccuracy. --Sugaar 05:21, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Naah, I don't monitor everything, but I monitor a lot; I figure that one of the best things I can do here is to make sure that unexplained changes to articles are improvements rather than liabilities; it's amazing how many are the latter. - Jmabel | Talk 01:33, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree: there are a lot of "disprovements", either well intentionate or just plain POV-pushing.

--Sugaar 06:05, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Unified Spelling

Should unify throughout this article the spelling of the town; either Gernika or Guernica.