User talk:Wikizach

• Archive 1 (26 December 2005 to 2 January 2006):
• Archive 2 (2 January 2006 to 28 February 2006):
• Archive 3 (28 February to July 23 2006):
• Archive 4 (July 23 to September 2 2006):
• Archive 5 (September 2 to November 22 2006):

WikieZach| talk 18:55, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Welcome

Hi! If you have any comments, please write them below this box, thank you! --WikieZach| talk 16:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

Yes, please do help me Wikizach. Here's the link to where it's taking place. I was just about to ask for help, thanks for showing up. | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 11:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello again Wikizach. I just wanted to tell you that I will be leaving for a few days, and I wanted to know if you would take charge of my mediation. If you can't do it, please tell me, and I'll look for someone else. |

Ok, thanks Wikizach. Do you need me to explain how things are going? | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 14:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is where we are discussing the topic. It seems that everyone involved has accused another of something; some have even had RFIs. They are arguing over the materiel in the article and the sources. The article was blocked from editing by User:Shell Kinney in order for mediation to run more smoothly; it worked for a while, but it seems they have abandonded it, and are now arguing on the main talk page. I have asked them to say their opinions on the matter, and they have all done so, exept for Edditor. I was waiting for him to respond in order to continue the mediation. My next step would be to suggest a way to fix the problem, addressing the most important points, and see if they liked it (by vote). Is this a good step? I'll still be helping until about 5:00PM (UTC) tomorrow. | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 15:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

<unofficial>Oh, and thanks for signing your name into my autograph book, as well as adding it to my friends list.</unofficial> :-) | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 15:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I saw the vote being used here. | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 15:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Why template? I don't see any templates there. Is is a mediation word I should know? | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 15:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I was doing (or trying to), but like I said, I have to leave soon. | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 16:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean the vote? | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 16:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I will. | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 16:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll see if I can be there. | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 10:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Mountain Meadows massacre mediation

Excellent! I look forward to your leading us as mediator. Storm Rider ^(talk) 17:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

We recently have seen the participation of Gwen Gale, but he/she appears to already have been burned out and is leaving. Are you going to join in or was Gwen taking filling in for you? Initially, this will take a high degree of effort to enroll Duke53 and Sqrjn in the process. They are very resistant to anything that opposes their POV. However, with effort from a neutral party I think success is possible. Storm Rider ^(talk) 01:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand and expected as much. Of course, with the holiday it was also expected. I was just concerned when I saw Gwen Gale's seemingly to throw her hands. I was also confused thinking possibly the two of you were working together. It is not going anywhere and I am not aware that extending the time period hurts a positive outcome. Cheers. Storm Rider ^(talk) 01:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I just read your comment on the talk page; it may help if the page was aware of who you are and your purpose? If you already provided it or have already talked with the others; I apologize. I think the group will be cooperative and provide an itemized list of issues; however, I do not think it a long one. Please give it a day for responses and if possible provide a description, I am not sure that all of the editors understand the purpose and parameters of the mediation cabal. Storm Rider ^(talk) 01:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for not responding quicker, but I have been very busy with work. I will not be able to respond until tomorrow. Could you please wait for my response? If not, I understand; however, I do think the discussion has already highlighted conflicts. I will talk with you soon. Cheers. Storm Rider ^(talk) 00:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

A poll?

In regard to this edit... I don't think that your approach to reaching consensus, that is by declaring polls and conventions for specific times, is the right way to go about things. Discussion about Esperanza governance is fragmented right now, and it seems like it would be best to determine consensus once those discussions have centralized and run their course. Why give authoritarian-looking orders? -- SCZenz 21:54, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

My idea is that debate should be ended when it stops being productive (e.g. when it starts going in circles), rather than at an arbitrary time. -- SCZenz 01:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Happy Thanksgiving!

Happy Thanksgiving Wikizach! ^{This method of wishing someone a happy thanksgiving has been stolen from Randfan (talk · contribs).} | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 15:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I wish you a happy Thanksgiving! Hope you and your family have a magnificent day! So, what are you thankful for? Hooray! | AndonicO Talk | Sign Here 15:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Happy Turkeyday from AndonicO! Cheers!

happy Turkey Day!!!!!

I wish you a very merry Thanksgiving! Hope you and your family have a magnificent day! So, what are you thankful for? Hooray and happy gormandiziŋ! --Randfan please talk talk to me!

Happy Turkeyday! Cheers! :) —Randfan!!

Have a great day! Please respond on my talk page (the red "fan" link in my signature). Cheers! :) —Randfan!!

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Israeli Apartheid

Thank you, thank you , thank you. Thank you very much. The conduct of this POV group is disgraceful.

I'd like to focus on the edits. The liars and POV propagandists will focus on everthing but, expect accusations of the gamut of WP:Alpahbert Soup, etc. as a distraction.Kiyosaki 10:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Am I supposed to reply here?

Hi,

I thought I had already accepted the mediation case, perhaps I was supposed to reply on your talk page? I am fine with you mediating the case.

Thanks,

WLU 13:07, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

Hi Wikizach, I don't think I necessarily need mediation in my case. However I would appreciate any thoughts or observations you might have if you have the time to review things. I am coming to an understanding of how things work at Wikipedia, and I believe that generally the policies are pretty reasonable. However I believe that extensive outreach and education, both inside and outside Wikipedia, are called for. I am trying to determine how I might be able to contribute to, or maybe initiate, this kind of effort. Speaking as a newbie, one's introduction to Wikipedia can be extremely harsh. I see this as a system dynamic and not based on any evil intent. Most people seem to have good intentions at heart.

However it seems there is an inherent adversarial nature that is built into the system. I would like to see a Wikipedia grow based on a dynamic of co-creation rather than debate. Do you agree? How might we achieve this? Now that I wrote this I think I'll put it on my user page as a thought starter. I look forward to your response.Dgray xplane 01:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Esperanza/Admin coaching

Oops! Double-check where you put your request on the Wikipedia:Esperanza/Admin coaching page. I think it's supposed to at the bottom in a new section instead of as a numbered entry. --Brad Beattie ^(talk) 03:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

Hiya, I'm looking for someone with mediator experience to help out in a dispute at a guideline page. Would you be interested in helping? :) --Elonka 21:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Excellent! There are a few pages of discussion thus far... If you'd like to dive in cold, c'mon in to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television). Or, I can give you a nickel summary -- let me know how you'd like to proceed? --Elonka 10:01, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay here are things in a nutshell, as neutrally as I can manage: There is a dispute about how to name television episode articles, which boils down to whether or not some series can choose to use a consistent suffix such as (<seriesname> episode). Some editors think that all episodes of all series should use this format; some think that no episodes should ever use a suffix, unless specifically required for disambiguation purposes; and some editors feel that it makes sense to look at things on a "by series" basis. For example, the Star Trek WikiProject debated this many months ago, and decided on a consistent system (see the subcategories in Category:Star Trek episodes). A few other WikiProjects chose consistent systems as well, so the "consistent" method has been used on thousands of Wikipedia articles, though the majority of television episode articles on Wikipedia choose the "Disambiguate only when needed" method.

A few weeks ago, when one of the "consistent method" projects filed a routine move request to move one of the articles to a suffix, this caught the attention of one of the "disambiguate only when needed" editors, and a dispute started. It's gradually escalated from that one episode page, to the WikiProject level, and now to the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television) page, where the debate has been raging hot and heavy for weeks now, and the guideline page itself has been the victim of edit wars.

The "disambiguate only when needed" camp is adamant that the guideline should be enforced as policy, and any "consistent method" series should be changed. The WikiProject side says that the WikiProjects should be allowed to set their own guidelines, to use what makes the most sense for their series.

A poll was started on October 30 to try and bring in further comment, but since there was not agreement on how the poll was to be worded, the poll's wording was being drastically changed during its run, such that multiple people complained that the things they were "voting" for were changed around, and others said that they weren't going to participate in the poll until it was re-run in a clean manner. However, the (biased) poll ended with a seeming majority for the "disambiguate only when needed" camp, who now of course are refusing to consent to a new poll.

The situation is further confused by the fact that some editors participating are only able to post an opinion once every few days, while other editors seem to be on a more 24-hour schedule, and the "fast-posting" editors are frequently drowning out the comments of the slower editors. This has been exacerbated by a great deal of incivility and personal attacks, ranging from name-calling to deleting other editors' posts off the page. Dissenting voices are routinely attacked as being a "lone voice", "sore loser", "whiner," etc. Additional stress has been added by some editors who have (in my opinion prematurely) declared "consensus", and launched into massive moving sprees, where hundreds of articles in what had previously been stable categories are now being moved to a different format.

Repeated attempts to run a new poll have been blocked, and multiple offers of compromise have been rejected. So, it's time to call in a mediator, and see if we can break the logjam. It's my hope that things might be helped considerably by bringing in an informal mediator first, but if that doesn't work, we may have to proceed to more formal mediation or ArbCom.

Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated.  :) --Elonka 12:10, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka has been very good at manipulating summaries of the situation at hand.

The fact of the matter is that no rational reason for exception from said guideline has even been demonstrated in the first place. The vast majority of editors involved in this situation have agreed with the standard case to disambig only when necessary, and all with good and rational reasons to do so.

The poll in question was changed twice by Elonka herself, where I had to revert the poll back (before anyone had voted). I even went step by step to see who who voted under what poll format and found that only three editors might have not been clear on what they voted on. This was later re-enforced by User:Wknight94 going to everyone's talk page and asking them to confirm what opinion they had about the matter. The more and more we looked, the more we saw that there was no major confusion. In addition, we've noted several times that the poll is only one method to find people's opinion on the matter, and that discussion far outweighs the poll itself.

Elonka has also directly and deliberately misrepresented statements made by other editors about their support for "another poll", including myself. (see Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)#Requests for a new poll, for just one example of this).

There have also been two requested moves regarding the naming conventions that are used in this dispute: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)#Moving lost articles, and Talk:Fire + Water (which was before there was a dispute).

The consensus has become clear, but Elonka continues to try to create the illusion that there is anything else to discuss on the matter. It has gotten to the point where both Elonka and another user, User:MatthewFenton, have become down right disruptive, in this matter and others. The naming conventions of episode articles is not what needs mediation, but rather the few editors who are still causing a disruption despite a rational consensus. -- Ned Scott 02:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Concerning the matter of disruption, I would point to User talk:Ned Scott, where polite reminders about civility have been deleted by him with such edit summaries as "rm trolling".[1] [2] See also other civility warnings on the page: [3]. Many other diffs available upon request.  :) --Elonka 03:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka has left several civility messages on editors in the discussion. Most have disagreed with her assessment of their comments. I can find many, many examples of this if you wish. Also note that three of the four users who left me these notes are directly involved in the Lost dispute, and the fourth seemed to tag along for the ride when he was involved in an unrelated discussion with me. These messages are just another attempt by Elonka to discredit those who disagree with her. I have yet to receive any valid examples of incivility, or be "warned" by someone who was not in direct disagreement with what I was saying (i.e., 3rd party, or maybe one of the five administrators who were involved, etc). -- Ned Scott 03:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Glad to have you aboard! Strap in and hang on, it'll be an interesting ride.  :) --Elonka 04:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Recommendations on how to proceed at this point? --Elonka 03:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-12-05 Naming conventions (television). --Elonka 03:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

What should happen now? Should I tell people the link? Or is that something that you want to do? --Elonka 05:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Single-party state mediation

I have, and he's agreed to it. But the other parties must agree too. Only problem is if they reject it, since ArbCom by design does not handle content. – Chacor 22:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

Alright, thanks for the info. I'll see if I can join in the discussion. | AndonicO ^{Talk | Sign Here} 01:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

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removal of comments from Wikipedia:Esperanza/Collaboration of the Month

Take care when removing comments from "nonmembers". One of the biggest beefs that people have with us at Esperenza is that we are exclusive and isolationist, and EVERY part of wikipedia is supposed to be open to EVERY user, registered or not. If we want to improve Esperanza's image among its critics, removing valid comments by "nonmembers" will not help. --Jayron32 04:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

straw poll

Might I suggest you specify strict eligibility requirements? Polls are open invitations to sockpuppets and otherwise irrelevent allies. Moreover, as I noted on the talk page, I'd like you consider avoiding a poll altogether, since it would be unscientific: Encyclopedic verifiability is not measurable through polling. Gwen Gale 19:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Understood, only as a status tool, where previously unheard from users get no weight... and the poll itself has no sway on content, sounds ok. Gwen Gale 16:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Which is to say, the poll would only be a measure of lingering dispute or whatever. Gwen Gale 09:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that contributing questions to this poll really accomplishes anything ... everybody is already aware of the main participants' opinions on this matter. The only other purpose of the poll will be to allow new, seldom-seen (or never-seen) editors make their opinions known. What time today is the poll going to be posted? I will be away from my computer most of tomorrow and would like for my vote to count in it. Duke53 | ^Talk 00:53, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Am I confused, or did you announce that it would be up today? Duke53 | ^Talk 02:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

"If you have any question you wished to be asked, please send me a message on my talk page. The poll will start tomorrow (25 hours) WikieZach| talk 22:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)" What exactly did you mean when you posted the above statement ? Duke53 | ^Talk 09:21, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

"i made a mistake". WikieZach| talk 13:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC). Perhaps more than one mistake; why did you invite visor ? It almost appears that you are waiting to get a 'green light' from someone before you submit the straw poll. Duke53 | ^Talk 20:38, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Like Gwen and Duke, I don't really see how a straw poll will help us move toward consensus. But in response to your request for questions I'll suggest the following: 1) Should the word "kidnap" be used? 2) Should the NPOV criteria be applicable to verified quotes to include them in the article? (That is, if a quote is introduced that supports one POV, to keep neutrality a quote supporting the alternative POV would need to be given similar prominence.) 3) Should the article avoid using material that the original, published source describes as based on legend, oral tradition, or otherwise of doubtful reliability? BRMo 02:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I have not chimed in until now I was not near the computer much yesterday. I think aside from the arguments that have been discussed adnauseum the poll should ask: Specifically, what is and is not appropriate for content for the article (i.e. what is the scope of the article). Then what is the minimum standard of verifiability. I think once those two things are established, hopefully, some of the stuff like "kidnap" and "rape" would be more of a no-brainer because we could show they do or to not meet the established criteria. Also the article is cluttered with stuff thrown in to either vindicate or make the people of SE look like idiots but is in itsself irrelevent to mountain meadows. With this we could have a standard of what should be removed.

For example, the article currently states that Washington City was considering a statue of John D. Lee. This have nothing do do with mountain meadows (although it would be appropriate for an article on John D. Lee). Also from the way it was written it is obvious it is done to show POV. For example the article does not even mention that JD Lee was a founding father of Washington city, and that is why they considered the statue. City officials were fully aware it would be a controversial action because of mountain meadows. But again why is this even in the article in the first place? Davemeistermoab 22:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Medcabal-thumb wrestling

yeah, the thumb wrestling one seems pretty open-and-shut. I know we're not supposed to take sides, but it clearly looks like an NPOV violation, although I'm interested to hear what you think. As for the homosexuality one, I don't know...its a civil pdispute, but a volatile issue. This is a powderkeg. Let me know wha you thought of my intro there. With LGBT issues, it can be difficult to reach a consensus. Antimatter 01:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think I need your help with the thumb wrestling article...it's a little harder than I figured. I can't seem to initiate any sort of civil dialogue between the two parties, they're arguing over some trivial technicalities, despite my best efforts, they don't even seem to like any of my compromise offers. Any ideas? Antimatter---talk--- 02:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

just to tell you...

User at 125.23.142.19 added some vandalism to "talk:requested articles/natural sciences". Can you deal with him/her? (Have already correct the vandalism, but need someone to break it to him gently!)User:Orngjce223User_talk:Orngjce223

Mountain Meadows

I don't really consider myself part of the current dispute, however, I've commented as I've done academic research in this area, and am an intersted party and want common sense to be represented. I am amazed that the folks involved don't really understand the topic (on both sides). I've tried to guage the understanding of folks, but people in that have so many "pet" words and phrases they feel they need to communicate that they are blinded. I think that it is fairly obvious who is doing research in published journals and primary sources, and who is using message boards as their research methods (on both sides). They can't even figure out the geography and timeline. My suggestion is to require those involved, in some way, to read at least two of the sources - such as the Final Confession of John D. Lee [4] (definitely critical of the church, but also fair). To me the big issue seems to be:

• Should we use of the word "kidnapped," (or other loaded words)?
• Should we use long quotes (even if they push POV (on both sides) and duplicate inforamtion?
• Should we allow non-published/original research (I've left mine out, except in disucssion page discussions)?
• Should we lead the reader to conclusions or drawing conclusions where no evidence exists (rape, and other folklore)
• Will the three of the editors on both sides (mormon and non-mormon) of the arguemnt continue refuse to work together or have any sort of compromise (Duke, Sjrin and Storm Rider)? Incidentally, I find that sort of behavior unacceptable to the wikipedia process.

Just my thoughts. -Visorstuff 00:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Likewise, I don't consider myself part of any dispute. So long as citations are used to reference the source of disputed details and undue weight to any particular PoV is avoided I don't think it'd be too hard to edit a helpful, encyclopedic article. A suggested straw poll question:

• Are you willing to collaborate in an editing project tentatively named Mountain Meadows Massacre Editing Cabel (or whatever) with the stated goal of doing whatever it takes (editorially speaking) to put this article into a form whereby it would be very likely to be chosen as a featured article? Gwen Gale 15:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

on IRC now

I see you're online. I'm currently also on #wikipedia-esperanza on irc.freenode.net . Kim Bruning 17:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

re email

I got it. I'll post it soon on WT:EA.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 21:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Mediation cabal case.

Hi,

Regarding the dispute between myself and Mystar, could I ask if it was not continued because Mystar failed to engage, or did I miss out on on a step I should have taken?

Thanks,

WLU 22:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I do realize that it's been closed, I was more curious why? I'm mostly concerned that it might have died because I missed a step. WLU

Thanks very much, I appreciate the follow-up.

WLU 00:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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Re: RFM

Hi. I edited the "issue" statement [5] for clarification, but it was reverted by User:Regebro. I hope you can step in and merge the changes. Again, it is mainly for clarification and accuracy. Thanks. --Vsion 17:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Your input is requested

Your input would be appreciated at this Request for Comments. Kelly Martin (talk) 18:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

IRC

Come yell at me on irc for vandalising your vote page ;-) Kim Bruning 00:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Page moves and admin notifications

Rather than notifying multiple administrators via their talk pages, as you have been doing,[6] [7] [8] please post your complaint about the user and their page moves to WP:ANI. Please include diffs to any relevant information. This way, several admins can discuss the situation in one place and decide together what action (if any) should be taken. Thanks very much, Johntex\^talk 02:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

There is an ongoing thread at WP:ANI#Requesting block for non-consensus page moves. Additional voices, especially of people who are not actively involved in the dispute, would be very helpful. --Elonka 03:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for Mediation

A Request for Mediation to which you are a party was not accepted and has been delisted. You can find more information on the mediation subpage, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television). For the Mediation Committee, Essjay (Talk) This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to perform case management. If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.

This message delivered: 04:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Block request

I note that you have been asking several admins on their talk page if they would block a certain user for page moving. However, this issue is already under discussion on WP:ANI, which should get you the admin attention you need. Also, contrary to your claim, the MedCom has specifically said (on ANI) they do not endorse blocking this user. Since you are supposed to be mediating this very issue, I find this behavior inappropriate, and I would ask you to retrect your request. Thank you for your time. (Radiant) 15:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Per the revelation(s) at Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-12-05 Naming conventions (television)#Refusal to participate due to the mediator's actions, you should probably consider recusing yourself from that discussion. ^demon (talk · contribs) at least maintained some level of neutrality in his actions. I fear yours has become hopelessly compromised as far as this case goes. Two have already refused to participate now (including one striking his entire statement) and I'm not real comfortable continuing in this state either. Please consider it. Thanks. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Admin coaching

Apparently I've been assigned to you as your admin coach. -- Steel 17:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Mainly how to do adminly maintenance tasks and what people look for in RfAs. -- Steel 15:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for Mediation

A Request for Mediation to which you are a party has been accepted. You can find more information on the mediation subpage, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Single-party state. For the Mediation Committee, Essjay (Talk) This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to open new mediation cases. If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.

This message delivered: 04:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC).