Talk:Scottish people

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Scottish people article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6: 90 days

This article is written in Scottish English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, travelled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Ethnic groups B‑class High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups articles

B

This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

High

This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:

Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks:

Meta-tasks:
- Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project.
- Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution:
Start an article:
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests

Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks.

Scotland B‑class Top‑importance

	Scotland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Scotland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Scotland and Scotland-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ScotlandWikipedia:WikiProject ScotlandTemplate:WikiProject ScotlandScotland articles
B	This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Celts B‑class High‑importance

	Scottish people is within the scope of WikiProject Celts, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the ancient Celts and the modern day Celtic nations. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article or you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks or take part in the discussion. Please Join, Create, and Assess.CeltsWikipedia:WikiProject CeltsTemplate:WikiProject CeltsCelts articles
B	This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Christianity: Reformed Christianity B‑class Low‑importance

	Christianity portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity articles
B	This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	Reformed Christianity portal This article is supported by WikiProject Reformed Christianity (assessed as Low-importance).

Scottish people was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
December 22, 2007	Good article nominee	Not listed

Archives

Archive 1 (June 2005 – June 2006)
Archive 2 (May–August 2006)
Archive 3 (Aug 2006 – July 2008)
Archive 4 (June 2006 – Aug 2010)
Archive 5 (July 2010 – )

This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by when more than 5 sections are present.

King David - invasion not invitation

The section mentioning King David perpetuates the myth that the Normans were 'invited' into Scotland rather than that they invaded and conquered it. The Wiki pages on King David and his sponsor Henry I tell a very different and far more accurate account. David did not simply 'return from exile' but invaded at the head of a Norman army and rather than 'assume' Kingship took it by force in the face of Scots armed opposition. The ultimate consequence was that a new and now Lowland-based 'Kingdom of Scotland' became in reality Britain's second Anglo-Norman kingdom. Cassandra.

Whether it's by invasion or invitation not really relevant, but should be consistent among articles, but yes absolutely post-Davidian Revolution Scotland undeniably becomes an Anglo-Norman kingdom along more feudal, continental lines. David I occupies a vaguely similar role in the line of Scottish kings as William the Conqueror does in the line of English kings.

Celtic Ethnicity

"The Scottish people (Scots: Scots Fowk; Scottish Gaelic: Albannaich) or Scots, are a nation and Celtic ethnic group"

In what sense are the Scottish people a Celtic ethnic group, exactly? This is a really, really strange opening line. The vast majority of Scots don't speak a Celtic language and haven't for centuries, in some areas by as much as 1500 years. So we're not linguistically or culturally Celtic. As for ethnically Celtic, what exactly is that? What is ethnically Celtic or Germanic or Slavic, exactly when these broad linguistic groups vary internally by genetics so drastically?

The only Celtic Scots would be the ones that speak Gaelic, which is around 1% of them. The remainder would obviously be Germanic. I am aware the Scottish people like to often refer to themselves as Celtic, but if they started commonly referring to themselves as a Slavic ethnic group would they be one? Of course they wouldn't.

Slipped in in this edit. It isn't meaningful. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:35, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it's not really a huge deal, but I think we should stay away from... folk traditions? On an encyclopedia. It's fine to mention in the article for example somewhere that the Scots identify with their Celtic past, as they clearly do, and that they retain aspects and elements of this in their modern culture and identity, Austrians and Galicians do this with their Celtic past too for example, but to make a sort of objective statement like this in the opening line as if it is grounded in any kind of fact or academic classification, I just think it always sets a very bad precedent.

You know what is quite hilarious is that Austria and Galicia were denied acceptance into the Celtic League on the grounds that they were "not Celtic enough", despite Austria containing the original homeland of the Celtic peoples/languages.

Misleading

This entire article is fairly misleading, is it not? The idea that the Scottish were some defined ethnic group with a language who then absorbed others isn't quite the case. The Scottish historically were exclusively Gaels, speakers of the Gaelic tongue and they conquered territories with Norse and English peoples. They managed to Gaelicize the Norse over centuries (and before this the Picts) but the English were never Gaelicized and instead ended up becoming the majority ethnic group in Scotland over centuries.

For most of its recent historical period, about the 1100s onwards, Scotland was bitterly divided around 50/50 between English Lowlanders (who had existed as a powerful minority in southeast Scotland since around the 500s and grown from there) and Irish Highlander people (who ironically followed a very similar path as the English beginning as a powerful minority in western Scotland and spreading out from there), who were only really held together by a Norman/French elite ruling class.

Around the 1400s the English in Scotland just decided to adopt the term Scottish for themselves and their language, basically, thenceforth referring to the Scottish as Irish or Gaelic exclusively. To paint this image of some all embracing Scottish ethnic identity is inaccurate, Medieval Scotland would have been more akin to Belgium or Switzerland with a political state/identity containing 2 distinct ethnic groups, and later a third minority group with the Norse from Shetland and Orkney while they still spoke it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 14:39, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The idea" you attribute appears to be your own. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:36, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Are you suggesting Gaels and English within Scotland did see each other as kinsman? As one people and ethnic group? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 16:47, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Are you going to disappear again now you've been rebuked? What's that the 4th discussion you've left hanging open failing to come up with any response or defense for your stance on the issue? Do you want to tell me why James VI of Scotland, who was ethnically English, wished to eradicate Gaelic culture/language in Scotland and even entertained ideas of genocide to achieve it if they were all truly one harmonious ethnic group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 16:51, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am suggesting that you are reading things into the article that are not there. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:03, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize, Mutt, you are totally right as well the article does actually go into the ethnic divides within historical Scotland quite a deal. I just find the article in general misleading as the idea that all these groups are equally "Scottish" is confusing. They're all geographically Scottish, sure, they were all politically Scottish when Scotland existed as a sovereign state. But to be ethnically Scottish was always the Gaelic ethnolinguistic group, which of course nowadays only accounts for 1% of the population at best.

It goes into a much wider issue with Wikipedia when labeling people like Henry Morton Stanley as Welsh, I guess. Or Thomas the Rhymer as Scottish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 17:27, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnic Group

The article doesn't really touch on what constitutes the people of Scotland as a distinct ethnic group. For example in the articles of most other ethnic groups (Dutch, Greeks, Germans etc.) it will touch on how they are a people united by speaking the language associated with them and to a lesser extent by some shared cultural features (although like most ethnic groups culture varies by region and is less of a binding force than language and perhaps blood).

Does anyone have any sources for what the people of Scotland consider to constitute as ethnic Scottish? Is it just being born in an area of land or what? If it is, isn't this just a regional identity or more of a civic national identity (which is a strange concept itself seeing as Scotland is currently a region of a highly centralized state) as opposed to an actual ethnic identity? It seems to be a problem afflicting the articles on 'ethnic groups' pertaining to the British Isles in general. Where groups traditionally based around the speaking of a language (be it Gaelic/Irish, Welsh/British or otherwise) are still trying to retain, or in some cases resurrect, a distinct ethnic identity without speaking that language. As opposed to what many objective outsiders might just see as a regional identity of a larger ethnic group they have been subsumed into over time.

It's a strange issue and maybe bears some mentioning on these articles. After all nobody talks about being Pictish today do they? Picts disappeared as an ethnic group when they began speaking Irish/Gaelic, even though their genetics lived on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.216.40 (talk) 09:51, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Changes to the lead - March 2020

This edit: diff has an edsum that says see talk as to why the ref is removed. I am a little confused by the fact that an IP editor made the change here first, which JJNito197 (talk · contribs) reverted and then reapplied with the above edsum. Not sure if they are thereby claiming the IP edit or not. Yet I don't see a talk section so I created one. I usually prefer unnecessary citations in the lead to be removed, but it seems to me that this ref could be used somewhere on the page to establish that the Scottish People can be called Celtic. Also I am not sure that Celtic should be removed from the lead. Options are (1) leave it as it is (2) revert that edit (3) put something in the main instead and perhaps just put the word "Celtic" back in the lead.

I also reverted the removal of "nation" and the addition of the words "originating from Scotland" from the lead as the page is not just about an ethnic group indigenous to Scotland. Addition of "nation" was a good edit. It is about the Scottish People as a nation too. "Originating from" is not really quite right either as the page makes clear. Migration is always part of the human story. -- Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:15, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The term "Celtic" keeps getting inserted here and usually gets weeded out fairly swiftly but it seems to have been slipped in again at some point; see Talk:Scottish_people#Celtic_Ethnicity above (FWIW, the other participant in that thread is now indefinitely blocked, in large part for trying to force the term "Germanic" at various articles). To say "celtic" is only part of the picture at best and is not particularly meaningful or helpful here for a number of reasons. "Nation" is correct and should be retained. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:39, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

...the latest addition of the term was here, on the 21st. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:46, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, good thanks. In that case I appear to have reverted it to the status quo, which is good. Yes, "Celtic" is definitely not all of the story. Best to discuss it in the main rather than assert it in the lead. Thanks again. -- Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:11, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Genetics

Any particular reason this section is missing from the article? Should I get started on creating such a section or is it going to devolve into constant removals and edit warring? For some reason something tells me attempts to add genetic information about the people that live in Scotland is going to be a highly charged, controversial issue. So I don't want to get started if it's just going to be trashed immediately.