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Demonization of the Serbs

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Demonization of the Serbs (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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The article is an extreme WP:POVFORK of articles like Anti-Serb sentiment, Propaganda during the Yugoslav Wars and others. IMO there should be a speedy delete process for extreme POV articles whose WP:LEAD begins with The Demonization of the Serbs or the Satanization of the Serbs (Serbian: Сатанизација Срба) was systematic[1] planned and deliberate demonization of the Serbs was pursued in Western media as a propaganda technique and war strategy during the Yugoslav Wars of the 1990's. --Maleschreiber (talk) 15:30, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Serbia-related deletion discussions. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 15:44, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Perhaps some material from the article could be moved to Anti-Serb sentiment, Propaganda during the Yugoslav Wars or some other article. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 15:46, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I came here intending to push deletion but you have multiple independent sources that discuss the demonization of Serbs during the 1990s. That's specifically separate from a general dislike of Serbs as a people or the general concept of propaganda during the latest Balkan war. I'd have a hard time claiming that the topic itself isn't notable. Merging this content into other articles, with the amount of source material available, is going to run into WP:UNDUE issues. I think we have no choice but to keep it, even if the topic seems to be partisan invective. Chris Troutman (talk) 16:08, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
They don't discuss this subject, they are a collection of sources whose authors consider the treatment of Serbian leadership or Serbia in general in the Yugoslav Wars by western media unfair or just mention the term, but this is not a subject in itself. This is the definition of WP:POVFORK: the presentation of one particular view about a legitimate subject as a subject in itself by assuming that the particular POV - extreme POV in this case - is a neutral mode of presenting a subject, in this case Propaganda in the Yugoslav Wars.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:14, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. This FPIF piece, this from Politico, and this piece in The Guardian all speak directly to this subject. I don't see original research here. The quotes provided in the other citations state that there was demonization, although I think you're making a stretch to say that they don't think the demonization, itself, isn't a subject. Chris Troutman (talk) 14:40, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Chris Troutman (talk) 16:09, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Chris troutman: I am somewhat curious (actually), as I am not sure I understand your argument here. Is there a difference in the application of WP:UNDUE here and in Anti-Serb sentiment?--Calthinus (talk) 21:14, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Calthinus: My point is that the Western media bias against the Serbs in the 1990s would entirely take over the article about propaganda in that war. The article about anti-Serb sentiment is about racial animus in a general sense across history, not the demonization to create the political consensus for various NATO interventions. I agree with Griboski that there should be aname change to this article but neither merge would be appropriate. Chris Troutman (talk) 14:40, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What you're saying presupposes that most Western media coverage about Serbia (not the Serb people) was illegitimate/biased in itself and/or based on fictional events which were used to "create the political consensus for NATO intervention". The belief that negative reporting about the state of Serbia was created to form a consensus about NATO intervention is shared by almost noone outside of Serbia and for the very few non-Serbian authors who espouse it, it usually goes hand in hand with conspiracy theories related Bosnian genocide denial. That article by politico is not related anyhow to the purported subject matter of this article. Also, it's a massive WP:UNDUE to accept the opinion of one Guardian piece as fact, when the points in that piece amount to a massive POV. Clark is a heavily criticized outlier in political commentary: RFERL: Clark has been making a name for himself as a leading apologist for Milosevic, for Serbian war crimes, and more recently for Putin's actions in Ukraine. But this time he has really gone too far. ---Maleschreiber (talk) 14:57, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Chris Troutman (talk) 16:09, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment the closing admin (it should be an admin in this case given the contentious nature of the subject) should be aware that several (but not all) of the editors weighing in here opposing the article deletion have well-established pro-Serb points of view. Their opposition needs to be weighed carefully based on the strength of the arguments presented and on the formation of consensus, per policy. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:49, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The Anti-Serb sentiment article pertains to a general hatred of Serbs based on their identity. This article is about the role the Western media played during the Yugoslav Wars in the 1990s, which some (reputable scholars) have observed as being biased against Serbs or contributing to a demonization of the people as a whole. That is a worthy topic on its own. If the article is to be salvaged, it should be re-written and toned down to make it more NPOV and less conspiratorial, with a different title. Alternatively, its good portions could be merged into other articles. You can't state things like "The Demonization of the Serbs or the Satanization of the Serbs was systematic, planned and deliberate" in Wikipedia's voice as if it were a fact, especially in the lead. --Griboski (talk) 00:55, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment- So, let me clear the air a bit: what you said, basically, is that "demonization of Serbs" is anti-Serbian sentiment only expressed, "specifically", during the war of the 90's?!--౪ Santa ౪99° 02:02, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, I never said that "demonization of Serbs" is a phenomenon unique to the 90s; only that the perceived demonization of Serbs by the media during that time is a notable issue in of itself. --Griboski (talk) 02:52, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep This article refers to something very specific, not general Anti-Serb sentiment. The term refers to the extensive, over-the-top negative coverage of Serbia by the Western Press during the Yugoslav Wars. The term is widely covered by reliable sources, topic is notable. This seems more like just a case of WP:JDL by the nom. Khirurg (talk) 01:06, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as POVFORK and per WP:GNG. Mztourist (talk) 04:02, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete because this is propagandistic article that has no place in wikipedia. From article: "The Serbs were presented as Nazi-like aggressive expansionists who were most responsible for the Yugoslav wars, depicted as particularly genocidal and sometimes referred to as "beasts" and "monsters". This article teaches us that the Serbs were actually flowers (in Yugoslav wars) and that in fact "demonization from western side" is blame for such a perception. Mikola22 (talk) 05:04, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as per comments made by Peacemaker67 and Santasa99. Also, I couldn't find any other article on Wikipedia that deals with demonising one nation. Mhare (talk) 11:19, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Side comment about the sources: Many of them come from Serbian politicians and authors with a particular POV. See: Tomislav Nikolić, Žikica Jovanović, or the SLOBODAN MILOŠEVIĆ INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE Their POV coupled with that of some western authors is the core of this article, which presents a very minor viewpoint of a larger subject (Propaganda in the Yugoslav Wars) in wikivoice as an actual subject with the title "demonization and satanization of the Serbs" and flat-out weird claims like Former Yugoslav minister of foreign affairs Živorad Jovanović estimated that satanization of the Serbs was particularly increased during Rambouillet negotiations. Editors should also be aware that part of the non-Serbian bibliography is used out of context in the article and is unrelated to the purported subject.--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:02, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Devonian Wombat and Peacemaker67 give a good summary of the reasons why this article should be deleted. An article dedicated to the West-Serbia relations and public opinion during the wars or an article focused on how Western media did see Serbia at the time would be acceptable if written in a neutral way, without conspiracies and fringe stuff. If one wants to contribute to that topic, a new article should be created as this one is beyond the limits. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:49, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment (2)- I wouldn't mind, actually, if we keep the article, and start-over from scratch (WP:TNT), this time describing the phenomenon for what it is: a dramatic and costly instance of self-victimization. I am not sure if Peacemaker67 had that in mind when he mentioned WP:TNT in his "Delete" post, but for this idea to come into fruition editors would have to be willing to invest time and energy in writing it anew - it's just an idea.--౪ Santa ౪99° 14:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC) On second thought, this is unnecessary complication, and anything worth writing about the phenomenon of self-victimization in Serbian society can be included in any of the articles close to the subject. Sorry.--౪ Santa ౪99° 14:42, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment OR, despite one's POV wishes, we can include that aspect ALONG with legitimate criticisms (some coming from RS) about the media's portrayal of Serbs during this period. Because I hadn't realized Benn, Chomsky, Herman, Taylor, Black, etc. were all Serbs engaging in self-victimization. --Griboski (talk) 15:39, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Chomsky appears to be questionable by some such as Christopher Hitchens (who was critical of multiple ex-Yugo governments of the time) stating “ My quarrel with Chomsky goes back to the Balkan wars of the 1990s, where he more or less openly represented the "Serbian Socialist Party" (actually the national-socialist and expansionist dictatorship of Slobodan Milosevic) as the victim.” I don’t think anyone is saying Noam Chomsky is Serbian but rather is biased and dismissive of the Milosovic regime. It’s not POV automatically to not support a POV article.OyMosby (talk) 17:13, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My POV remark was regarding the editor's confinement of the entire subject to mere self-victimization (as if it was entirely invited), thus dismissing any legit criticism of the depiction of Serbs in the Western media as put forth by some writers. It wasn't about support for the article. Chomsky's views can certainly be challenged, but his standing as a prominent scholar cannot. Hitchens was left-wing and became more conservative and a warhawk after 9/11. He had his own biases. --Griboski (talk) 18:47, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Really? Hitchens’ criticism of Chomsky and Milošević’s regime tied to “more conservative” and “warhawk era post 9/11”? Not to mention he was very much critical of the right-wing Croatian government and flirtation with Ustashe symbology as well as the right-wing Serbian government and Chetnik friendly aspects in the 90s. Being a prominent scholar does not override issue with bias. Hitchens was critical of both regimes and Chomsky yet I did not find information that depicts Hitchens as biased about the war. Or that his views changed on the 90s. He was to the left and his views did not change on both the Croatian and Serbian governments’ behavior. OyMosby (talk) 19:00, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm only saying that his views gradually began shifting during the 90s, partly as a result of the war, changing drastically after 9/11 and that opinions can change for the better or for worse. My point was that every political commentator is capable of being biased. Not that he was right or wrong about his views on Yugoslavia. You can find instances of Hitchens being labeled an Islamophobe for his criticism of Islam for example. The number of people criticizing a source doesn't tell you about the validity of their opinion on a particular stance either. You refute Chomsky as a source but seem to have a grandiose view of Hitchens because he criticized both Serbian and Croatian nationalism. I'm not suggesting Chomsky can't be biased or wrong on an issue, but that doesn't preclude his views from being included in an article as he is a reliably published academic. He is not the only individual cited regarding the demonization of Serbs. So I'm not sure what your point is. This discussion is veering off-topic. If you have a concern about a source, you should take it to the reliable sources noticeboard for review. --Griboski (talk) 21:14, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OyMosby, indeed, Chomsky has come under sustained fire -- from the mainstream left and the mainstream right alike -- for many of his other stances as well, with accusations including Cambodian genocide denial [1] (Santasa99 may take some interest in this one too [2]) and normalizing Hamas, a terrorist group with a genocidal ideoology. He is respected by a minority of the left-wing, and none of the right-wing. His works in philosophy and in linguistics (where he also is the centre of some unrelated controversies) are irrelevant to the serious POV issues with relying on him for anything political. Not that Chomsky is the only fringey intellectual this page relies on; in fact the page's very scope is fundamentally reliant on the POV of a very specific subset of the Western political spectrum, as I'll demonstrate below.--Calthinus (talk) 21:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment POV aside, we have Demonizing the enemy which gives a solid basis for the article name. Considering that the article has some problems, which are solvable, even if gets deleted it gives us a great foundation for another article which would be more NPOV. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 16:17, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That article was created by the same editor and has many of the same problems like this article. If any editor subjected that article to editorial oversight, it would probably get nominated for deletion. The reality is that none of the content here could provide a standalone article because it is an extreme POV viewpoint about a subject turned into a standalone article. If you want to improve something, find a consensus with those involved on Propaganda in the Yugoslav Wars, don't create any more POVFORKs.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:04, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It doesn’t make sense as a separate article to begin with. The article Demonizing the enemy is a general article about demonization. It was raised that there aren’t Demonization of [insert country/ethnicity] articles. anti-blank sentiment articles already exist. Also in relation to the editor’s previous comment, it is “moronic” to label any ethic group or country of millions as “Nazis”. A tactic used by Milosovic as well despite lack of mention in the article in question. It is not “moronic” for their reasons however, as despite the fact that countless Serbs were killed during WWII (and I understand where they are coming from with this), there were Serbs who supported and collaborated with the Nazis as well. Milan Nedić and his Regime. On top of that Chetniks collaboration with Axis forces. A part of history often ignored or left out of discussion. And let’s pretend for arguments sake it never happened, a country that was victim of abuse doesn’t mean it cannot become an abuser in the future or that it negates the actions. That is a logical fallacy. Again I am talking in terms of this rationale. There is no reasonable logic to label a country or people as “Nazis”. Between this kind of talk and the POV article this seems more like PoV pushing on Wikipedia as if it were a blog than an encyclopedia. As the article implies some sort of “misunderstanding“ of the Milosovic regime who is depicted as simply vilified “for some reason”. Also “WP:JDL” is becoming a joke counter argument by some editors at this point. As it can go both ways. OyMosby (talk) 17:13, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If such valuable info can be included elsewhere... how is this page necessary? There is a page like Stereotypes of Jews: Anti-Serb sentiment.--Calthinus (talk) 21:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Maleschreiber has already demonstrated the structural reliance of the page on a set of authors with obvious COI issues (like the prominent Serbian politician, Tomislav Nikolic, known for his role in the right-wing populist[1] SPP... among others). Without them, though, we still end up with a page whose scope is shaped specifically by the views of adherents from a specific ideology that is rejected by the majority of the political spectrum. This includes Noam Chomsky, who I have discussed further above, but the portrayal of far-left/paleoconservative opinions as scholarly consensus is not limited to the use of his works in WIKIVOICE. Example citations include Edward S. Herman who is controversial on the left and on the right for trying to mitigate a then-ongoing genocide in Cambodia [3], Carl Boggs' Imperial Delusions: American Militarism and Endless War, Robert W. Merry's Sands of Empire: Missionary Zeal, American Foreign Policy, and the Hazards of Global Ambition, and Michel Collon. The latter might just be the most dubious of all: his tirades on Israel veered so far into what is deemed anti-Semitic that he was disinvited to the Beirut Francophone Book Fair (you know, Lebanon)[4]. He then sued for defamation, and the court threw out his case as "groundless". He also stands accused of falsifications [5], Hamas normalization, spreading conspiracy theories [6][7][8], genocide denial [9], and unethical "advocating for Bashar al-Assad" [10].
To be clear, I am not saying we can never cite people with fringe views, what I am saying is that we cannot have a page whose scope is shaped by their views, I am illustrating how it is the very definition of WP:POVFORK. That's not an NPOV issue that can be solved by improving the page, because any discussion of the actions of the Serbian government that triggered the alleged "satanization" is either omitted or at best crammed into a small background subsection (the scope would lead to predictable accusations of WP:COATRACK were any balance to be added). This page is exactly like what a page Demonization of Hamas would look like if it were created (using, no surprise, likely the same authors). --Calthinus (talk) 21:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It is very disturbing to compare the fundamentalist militant organization and one whole ethnic group. I understood that the article just describes such examples... how is this page necessary? There is a page like Stereotypes of Jews: Anti-Serb sentiment. But there are also Antisemitism and Stereotypes of Jews pages. Ok, it's not necessary, but the content should be incorporated into other articles. I said keep or/and merge.--WEBDuB (talk) 21:50, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think they are trying to compare them to Milosovic’s regime not the Serb ethnic group itself. As the article mainly deals with Serbia as a country and the government. So making this as an example of what “the article just describes” would be incorrect. Again I agree with merging relevant and RS contents to relevant pages as you said earlier. In proper npov as well. Not almost depicting anyone as bigoted for criticism of a regime’s actions as attacking an ethnic group that regime is said to serve. Which is what the article comes across like now. Something used throughout history by countries and governments to deflect criticism or history. And hence problematic when Wikipedia will appear to be used as a tool to carry such actions forth.OyMosby (talk) 22:25, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
WEBDuB Indeed the proper comparison is between the Hamas regime and Milosevic regime. You've stumbled on the fact that indeed my comparison was inadequate. The proper comparison might indeed be a page that portrays criticism of Hamas as racism against Palestinians which is even more WP:POVFORK. Stereotypes of Jews is a subset of Anti-Semitism with a significant bibliography. An analogous page for Serbs, sources-willing, would not make the POV allegation that a specific period of media coverage was in fact a massive racist conspiracy spanning from German to American media and PR firms, but instead could discuss derogatory stereotypes of Serbs. For example, I would absolutely support a page that called out anyone who claimed that Serbs are somehow uniquely prone to genocide -- the whole world has seen that Germans elected Nazis but now have a stable democracy that is at the forefront of defending human rights, and prominent Holocaust scholars have called out blaming Nazism on some sort of German essence is flat out anti-German racism. But this is not that page. This is a POVFORK that could nearly be considered an attack page.--Calthinus (talk) 22:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Again, ethnic slurs and attacks would go an “anti-blank sentiment” page as is already the way such pages function. I believe the Anti-German Sentiment page does just that for demonizing ethnic groups on the actions of those within the ethnic group. OyMosby (talk) 22:47, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
For me the key is sourcing of the framing. Sourcing establishes Stereotypes of Jews as a notable article. If WEBDuB is right and there is non-fringe RS that establish such for a specific sort of "demonization" of Serbs, then sure. But that's an "if". Another big difference is that there is much scholarship on anti-Semitism. --Calthinus (talk) 23:17, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I would propose a couple of options. One, creating a general article about what most of this article is alluding to, but written in a NPOV style. Something like Western media coverage of the Yugoslav Wars. It could give a general overview of the subject, major events and include a section on criticism coming from certain intellectuals/public figures on portrayal of Serbs along with counter-opinions from scholars like Ramet and Hoare challenging this view. The other would be to simply add a "Western media" section in the Propaganda during the Yugoslav Wars page. --Griboski (talk) 22:20, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The second option seems best. As it’s how all participants involved in the Yugoslav Wars and their depiction in various medias are placed. Merging into Propaganda during the Yugoslav Wars. It would also provide a wider view of the whole topic to readers. OyMosby (talk) 22:29, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sure I'm fine with adding "Western media" to "Propaganda during..." if and only if there are non-fringey sources that explicitly call it propaganda, which I have not yet seen. There are plenty of places that actually useful material can be placed. But most of this page consists of citing fringe voices (Michel Collon etc) and politicians (Nikolic), and then stating their theses in WP:WIKIVOICE, so it isn't really useful for the most part anyways.--Calthinus (talk) 22:57, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am fine with inclusion of "Western media" aspect into "Propaganda" article too, and just like Calthinus, I will follow development there with great sense of urgency, maybe even zeal, because I won't sit idle and watch some kind of switcheroo unfolding, with moving nonsense from here to there.--౪ Santa ౪99° 00:50, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete extreme FORK, totally uncyclopedic.--Fa alk (talk) 09:25, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, clearly a POV fork, and even if it could be established as a potentially legitimate separate topic, the current article is so ridiculously POV-driven it would be case of "purge and start over" per WP:NUKEIT. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:53, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: per WP:SUBPOV, the title clearly indicates that its subject is the point-of-view. There is scholarly consensus that it exists. It has received significant coverage in an ocean of reliable sources that are independent of the legitimate article subject. I think that all contradictory views are given due weight in this article and do not see any need to delete it and start it over. The right approach to resolve eventual side issues is not deletion, but article improvement following wikipedia policies.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:16, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, this isn't SUBPOV. There's no "pov dispute" in a subject identifies as "demonization/satanization". What you've written is an extreme POV FORK with many abuses in terms of how bibliography is used. @Peacemaker67: there's almost double !delete (11), than !keep (6) comments, but I agree with your comment. Even with such a majority of !delete, the closing admin should be aware about the context of almost all the !keep comments.-Maleschreiber (talk) 10:33, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect calculation. Many editors recognize this article is a potentially legitimate separate topic and based their delete !votes on TNT essay (Wikipedia:Blow it up and start over). That would be wrong approach to resolving any eventual side issues. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:54, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, I won't get into interpreting what other editors meant to say with their !delete comments and you should neither. Let the procedure work itself out.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:01, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Russian sources should be included to know who is behind the propaganda, there is a Serbian proverb: Everyone is guilty, only a Serb never .... so the war did not happen
  1. ^ Zulianello, Mattia (2019). "Varieties of Populist Parties and Party Systems in Europe: From State-of-the-Art to the Application of a Novel Classification Scheme to 66 Parties in 33 Countries". Government and Opposition: 5.
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