Talk:Battle of Bakhmut

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:52, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Is Arestovych a trustworthy source?

On his daily podcast with Mark Feygin, Oleksii Arestovych stated that Russia had suffered over 60,000 casualties in Bakhmut and Soledar over the past few months. Linked here [1] I know there was a prior figure from Arestovych (something like 10,000) and that was removed from the infobox. PilotSheng (talk) 20:55, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

@PilotSheng It’s honestly pretty up in the air at this point, considering the Russians do not release their casualty figures. Still, although I wouldn’t put him in the infobox, I do think you should at least put in a note, just to keep a record. Tomissonneil (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Why would a participant in the conflict be a reliable source, which was the original question? 182.239.145.107 (talk) 06:50, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Removed list of units per infobox purpose

Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE anything more than basic information is immaterial in the infobox and detracts from the infobox's purpose, which is to summarize the article in as few words as possible. We do not write the article in the infobox; it is the other way around. Perhaps given a consensus here we could relink it.

I did not remove the entire order of battle; I only removed the specific smaller units and battalions as "Ukrainian air assault forces" will suffice instead of listing all of its subordinate units.

Thus, there is no need to list the specific brigades, legions, and battalions involved in the battle. There are numerous other reasons besides the Infobox Purpose:

1. Units that have been named by media sources as participating in the battle may not be contributing their full combat strength capability to the battle. For example, when a source states that "elements" of the XYZ Mechanized Brigade are currently operating in Bakhmut, this could mean as much as multiple battalions of 2,500 men, but as little as a small reconnaissance platoon of 15.
2. There were no Russian or PMC Wagner units listed.
3. The infobox stretched all the way down to the "Winter escalation" section of the article.

PilotSheng (talk) 03:04, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

• I took the time to add a good chunk of those but it's whatever. Since the Russian side was much less detailed/lacked RS-backed sources, I actually agree with the decision to keep them similar at the the end of the day. Balance. RopeTricks (talk) 06:01, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

  @RopeTricks Yeah I noticed that, that's why I made an effort to explain it here in the talk page so you and other editors who worked on it would understand. No worries PilotSheng (talk) 18:14, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

The title of a picture illustrating the article should be verified

I was surprised by the title of the picture of a Tunguska fighting vehicle: "A 9K22 Tunguska of Ukraine's 30th Mechanized Brigade Anti-Air Battalion in the vacinity of Bakhmut, December 2022" First, there is a typing error "Vacinity". Then, look at the leaves of the trees hiding the vehicle. Clearly, in spite of the climatic change, this picture was not shot in December, somewhere in Easter Europa. Hamilcar Barca (talk) 10:46, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Nice catch. The source is from the 30th Mechanized Brigade's facebook page, it seems the pictures were posted on December 3. So I think it's better to remove it's from December and just leave ""A 9K22 Tunguska of Ukraine's 30th Mechanized Brigade Anti-Air Battalion in the vacinity of Bakhmut" LordLoko (talk) 14:46, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 January 2023

Citation needed for this line "One Ukrainian artillerymen alleged that "80 percent" of the remaining civilian population, surviving in basements and supplied by mobile grocery trucks that periodically enter the city, was pro-Russian" under the "Winter escalation and continued encirclement efforts (November 2022–present)" section. Huntbiss5 (talk) 20:48, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lightoil (talk) 03:07, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

This needs a source. Change "One Ukrainian artillerymen alleged that "80 percent" of the remaining civilian population, surviving in basements and supplied by mobile grocery trucks that periodically enter the city, was pro-Russian" to "".

If there is no source to support this claim it should be removed. Huntbiss5 (talk) 14:27, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/10/russia-ukraine-war-bakhmut-meat-grinder-deadlock is the source for that sentence, which is already cited in the article. The source mentions both the grocery trucks and the claim of 80%. RopeTricks (talk) 05:55, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

16 Jan - Soledar etc

Hello - I'm editing on other pages to do with Ukraine. Now that Soledar is confirmed as occupied, I wonder whether the last entry here on Jan 7 needs to clarify 'Soledar-Bakhmut' and why it was being mentioned by Wagner command. It's 10km north. (Sil now also taken according to telegram sources.) Perhaps a link to Battle of Soledar should be embedded in the text? Cheers. Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:39, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Casualties does not equal killed in battle.

As in so many other articles about the Ukrainian-Russian war, sources referring to "casualties" are cited as if they were referring to the number killed in battle, causing massive inaccuracies. "Casualties" refers not only to those killed, but those wounded seriously enough in battle as to have to be removed from the battle forces. In modern combat, casualties are several times higher (typically four times) than actual deaths. In some instances, even sources confuse the meaning of "casualty," so care should even be taken to verify sources, especially when they are civilian bureaucrats. 205.175.220.10 (talk) 15:44, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Jan 20th BND report

Earlier today Germany's inteligence agency (BND) showed concerns about the high Ukrainian casualty ratio at this battle.

·English source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jan/20/russia-ukraine-war-live-zelenskiy-expecting-strong-decisions-as-kyivs-allies-meet-in-germany?page=with:block-63ca931e8f08475f7d94bf4b#block-63ca931e8f08475f7d94bf4b

·Original in German (live feed-13:46): https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/russland-ukraine-news-am-freitag-britische-geheimdienste-bis-zu-50-000-wagner-soeldner-in-der-ukraine-a-be2408e1-6e72-4325-bc06-29d76e0c4d5e Zaka (talk) 18:11, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Merge request

I request a merge between the article "Battle of Paraskoviivka" to this article Battle of Bakhmut. NYMan6 (talk) 17:14, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. The battle of Bakhmut encompasses much of the battle for Paraskoviivka. Jebiguess (talk) 04:26, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, considering we could make a part of the article about these battles especially about Ivanivske right now. NYMan6 (talk) 16:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Imminent Defeat of Ukraine

Ukraine is about defeated here, they are about 70% encircled and are being advised to withdraw by Washington and EU, please update accordingly.

https://unherd.com/thepost/ukraine-is-on-the-verge-of-losing-bakhmut/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:1730:F170:34A2:FB2D:2BDF:9882 (talk) 19:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Nice opinion piece PilotSheng (talk) 20:29, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Casualties

See recent edits over the military casualties section. It seems like editors are trying to remove claims of Ukrainian casualties while not also achieving parity for claims of Russian casualties. Seems like POV to me -- trying to minimize reports of Ukrainian casualties while maximizing the claims of Russian casualties is something that I have observed on Wikipedia before -- pinging editors: @EkoGraf @My very best wishes @Volunteer Marek @Applodion PilotSheng (talk) 20:39, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

No, I explained the reason in edit summary [2]. The numbers should define the number of people killed, wounded or the both. If we do not know what a number defines (we do not according to the cited sources), then such "info" does not belong to the page. My very best wishes (talk) 20:48, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

With regard to other content you restored, who is Maria Senovilla (Atalayar)? Do you have any other sources giving similarl numbers? My very best wishes (talk) 21:18, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

For now I have reinstated the version from earlier on 1 February ; the reason why all of those claims are to give a picture of the battle. There is a reason why we don't throw every claim into the infobox; rather, we put it in the "military casualties" section for readers to decide themselves. We have had discussions like this before PilotSheng (talk) 20:41, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I've explained my edits in the edit summaries. Doing things like including the casualties suffered by one specific Ukrainian company sized force while failing to include total casualties for Wagner fails WP:BALANCE and WP:UNDUE. The rest should be self-explanatory. Volunteer Marek 22:23, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

And judging by the edit summary, this edit appears to be a violation of WP:POINT (as well as WP:EDITWAR) Volunteer Marek 22:26, 1 February 2023 (UTC)