Talk:Bobby Sands

When was the speculation added? =

The article several months ago was short, but reasonably NPOV, now its full of speculation presented as fact, I'm gonna make some of the nessicary changes, but this article needs a huge cleanup. SCVirus 03:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Reactions section (UK)

I think this section of the article only reiterates the bigotry each side has for each other and is very much distasteful.

This section has become little more than a respository for the addition of sneering chants and anal grafitti together with a few obscure items of little relevance. If such content stays I take it anyone can go to any article about an individual and insert whatever grafitti or football chants concerning the individual? --Damnbutter 16:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

For reasons best known to themselves but reeking of sectarianism the following irrelevant, repeated and sectarian content keeps reappearing and one of it's apologists has alleged that I am guity of vandalism so for the slow learners I will point out why each section has been removed;

• At Old Firm football matches in Glasgow, Scotland, some Rangers F.C. fans have been known to sing songs mocking Bobby Sands to taunt fans of Celtic F.C. Rangers fans are more likely to be sympathetic to the Unionist community and see Sands as a Republican terrorist; Celtic fans are more likely to support the Republican community and thus view him as a hero and martyr.

Moved to "Trivia"

• Bobby Sands was played by John Lynch in the 1996 film Some Mother's Son.

-Already covered in film section

• Richey Edwards of the Welsh rock group, the Manic Street Preachers, was an admirer of Bobby Sands. In 2006, Manics' bassist Nicky Wire wrote a song about Sands entitled "Bobby Untitled".

Already in music section

• The graffiti "Bobby Sands - Slimmer of the year" appeared.

Sectarian and irrelevant

Isn't this what Wikipedia call a POV edit?

If praise for Bobby Sands isn't irrelevant or sectarian then neither is contempt. The Grot 08:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

"Praise for Bobby Sands" where exactly? do you understand the POV concept- I suspect you regard any objective comment not condemning Sands as a murdering terrorist as "praise" . By your logic it's okay to make an entry on any wikipedia page alluding to puerile and ignorant grafitti as long as theres some link somewhere? --Damnbutter 12:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• In 2006, The Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist) published an article commemorating the life of Bobby Sands and the impact of the Irish republican Hunger Strikes, 20 years on. Bobby Sands, Irish liberation hero.

Of minimal interest but is already in external links

PS Surely Sands died in the "UK" anyway and do fan(s) of this section know of the alphabet or why does it always crop up at the top of the section?--Damnbutter 14:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

These sections aren't in alphabetical order in the first place, Asia and Oceania should be before USA and Cuba.

What made you think they were, Damnbutter? The Grot 08:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Is that your only defence of your thinly disguised sectarianism "Grot"? All the above are reasons for deleting your weasel bias - which you have made no attempt at answering. --Damnbutter 12:28, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Nationality?

Since he was born in NI, surely the opening line should read 'British', not 'Irish...' etc.? He was British, not Irish, and this should be made clear.

He was Irish not British as is perfectly clear to almost everyone apart from extreme loyalist pedants.

He was born in Britain, as were his parents. Hmm...I think that would suggest he was British.Archibald99 03:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Archibad99: I think you know that this is not straight forward. Similarly as those from Scotland may call themselves Scottish, those from Wales, Welsh, etc, those from Northern Ireland, particularly depending on their religion, may call themselves, and be perfectly entitled to call themselves Irish (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people). Indeed, The Republic of Ireland had a constitutional territorial claim to the island of Ireland. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland) indeed, today, the citizens of Ireland still include all those born on the island, including the North. See reference 7 in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_people also. Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Irish#Northern_Irish_nationality relating to the belfast agreement. For what it's worth, Bobby Sands himself certainly did not consider himself British: "We refuse to lie here in dishonor! We are not criminals, but Irishmen! This is the crime of which we stand accused.". --Wmcnamara 09:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

His parents took a house from the British state, he claimed benefit from the British state and was a british citizen. He was therefore British in legal terms 10:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• Accepting benefits or social housing from the British state doesn't make you British (see Abu Hamza al-Masri). Since he didn't self-identify as British, and it's extremely unlikely that he held a British passport given his republican beliefs, I see no reason why the article should refer to him as British. This seems to be nothing more than an attempt to provoke the "other side" by labelling one of their "heroes" as British, an approach which is unfortunately quite common on Northern-Ireland-related articles (with nationalists as well as unionists -- just look at the history of County Londonderry). Wikipedia is not a battleground. Demiurge 10:25, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_citizen#British_citizenship_by_birth_in_the_United_Kingdom — Preceding unsigned comment added by Weggie (talk • contribs)

• The same thing also applies to the Belfast-born Mary McAleese — surely you're not suggesting that we should label the President of the Republic of Ireland as "British"? Demiurge 13:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Legality of Internment

I take issue with the term convicted militant. He was never convicted when illegally interred and was sentenced to 14 years for being in a car with two others when a gun was in the vehicle.

I agree, it doesn't need the word militant anyway... changing it.SCVirus 07:15, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Sands wasn't "illegally" interned - due to the special circumstances, internment was introduced legally. How successful it was, and how much the system was abused, is another matter. -

Mal 23:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Just because the internment was passed by the government it does not make it morally justified. The internment of people of Japanese heritage was likewise approved by the US government during WWII but was just as shameful. If internment was aimed at eliminating violence on both sides of the dispute in the North why is it that 90% of those interred were Catholic ? (RH)

I never mentioned the phrase "morally justified". We were talking about whether they were legally interned or "illegally" interned. As for why 90% (your figures, not mine) of internees were, as you claim, Roman Catholic - you'll have to ask the government that question. --Mal 23:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for making the change I requested. (Rich H.) Slainte

Nationality

Bobby Sands was an Irish Citizen, those living in Northern Ireland are born citizens of Northern Ireland, and have the birth right of either Irish or British citizenship and nationality, or both if they so choose, which has been the case since the partition of Ireland, and can be read up on clearly in both the Anglo-Irish agreement and the most recent, Good Friday Agreement.

On a side note, Northern Ireland is not apart of Great Britain. It is (currently) apart of the United Kindgom, along with Great Britian, and is the only section of the U.K with joint nationality in place.

Beate Bobby Sands Ora Pro Nobis!

Grow up - idiots!

Will the Holy Roman Catholic Church make him a saint or a blessed, so people can pray for his help in convincig God to expel the anglo-saxon heretics?

No but he will doubtless be continually looked in such a way by Protestant Loyalists subscribing to such a 17th Century view of Ireland.

--Damnbutter 17:37, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

"Expel" from what.. from where exactly? Considering the subject of this discussion - Bobby Sands - perhaps you mean "expel from Northern Ireland". In that case, I'm sorry to have to inform you that the Anglo-Saxon population even of England has been shown to be a very low percentage. The number of people from England who settled in Ireland during the Plantation years was quite low in comparison to the population. The number of those who were also descended from Anglo-Saxons would propably be miniscule. However, should you wish to go from door-to-door requesting samples from people in Northern Ireland for DNA testing, and then engage in ethnic cleansing, be my guest. You won't get very far.

I hope the Roman Catholic Church never considers canonising any members of terrorist organisations in Northern Ireland.

I don't know what you're talking about when you mention "Protestant Loyalists subscribing to such a 17th Century view of Ireland". This is the 21st Century ... welcome. - Mal 23:50, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

From what I remember, suicide is a mortal sin in the catholic church. So, I strongly doubt that they will cannonize someone who has committed an act which damned themselves to hell as defined by catholic doctrine. 208.63.63.94 21:12, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Didn't Jesus have the power to remove himself from the cross as the Son of God. He did not because he knew he had to sacrafice his life so that others could gain entrance into heaven. Surely that is not suicide.

Bobby also surrendered his life so that the cause of those persecuted in Northern Ireland could be known around the world. He may not have died for our sins but he did die so that others could live in Peace and Freedom. (Rich H.)

Not true. Bobby Sands committed suicide so that prisoners convicted of terrorist offences would gain 'political status' within the prison system. He had also joined a group which was committed to destabilising life for the people of Northern Ireland through violence and anarchism, and which had murdered more Roman Catholics than any other single organisation single the Troubles began.--Mal 22:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

The raising of the political status issue was to publicize the brutality that exisited in the North. He was not convicted of terrorism. He did not have a trial and was sentenced to 14 years for being one person in a car that contained a gun. I'm not annointing him for sainthood but I don't believe he should be condemn to hell. (RH)

I don't believe Sands should be condemned to hell either - that is a matter for God I would think. However, Sands was a terrorist. Whether he was convicted, in his last incarceration, specifically under terrorist charges or not, he was still campaigning for 'political status' of Republican prisoners. --Mal 22:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Ian Paisley the UVF & DUP are still to this day the biggest destabilizing organizations in the North. I do not condone the violence of the IRA but if I put myself in their shoes I can't say I would not have reacted the same way. If I was spat on while going to school, burned out of my home because of my religion and forced out of my job at gun point I could see where viloence would be seen as my last resort. (RH)

I'm not sure where you get your idea that Ian Paisley and the DUP are the "biggest destabalising" organisation in Northern Ireland. Paisley has certainly said some inciteful things in the past, in a sectarian sense. But the DUP continue to respect democracy.

Did you read Paisley's recent comments about Mary McAleese ? (RH)

Did you read Mary McAleese's comments about Protestants? --Mal 23:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The UVF, on the other hand, do not.

You go on to say that you would "not condone the violence of the IRA", but that if you put yourself "in their shoes I can't say I would not have reacted the same way." Equally true for any of the organisations involved in the Troubles in Northern Ireland - including the British Army, the police and the government, I'm sure you would agree. --Mal 00:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I do agree that British soldiers are put in a dangerous situation much in the same way that US troops find themselves in the Middle East now.

My contention is that those in control of the government escalated the situation by not policing the terrorists in the UVF. This errupted in Bloody Sunday which is what caused the soldiers to be sent thereby further increasing the tensions. (RH)

You have made a couple of errors in your last paragraph. Perhaps you haven't explained yourself very well though. The errors are:

1) Your inferance that the government's lack of control of the UVF led to ("errupted in") Bloody Sunday .. is simply not true.

2) Bloody Sunday isn't what "caused the soldiers to be sent". The police and army were reinforced in Northern Ireland to protect the smaller Roman Catholic communities from larger, surrounding Protestant communities, on the 14th of August, 1969. --Mal 23:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

You say: "If I was spat on while going to school, burned out of my home because of my religion and forced out of my job at gun point I could see where viloence would be seen as my last resort."

Again, this could equally be applied to the likes of the UVF, or the UDA etc. Or perhaps you are blindly assuming that being spat on while going to school, being forced out of your job at gunpoint or being burned out of your own house because of your religion was solely a phenomenon that was restricted to Roman Catholic victims... --Mal 22:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Not restricted to but certainly they were the overwhelming victims of this abuse. The Catholic Church throughout its own history is not exempt from criticism. The problem arises when one group in power forces its will with violence to remain in power. "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." (RH)

I'm not sure this is true at all. In fact, I'm not sure one could measure it. By the way, the group in power, namely the Unionist Party, did not "force its will" with violence. --Mal 23:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

In the end I want to see peace reign with freedon for all regardless of religios beliefs. If that is what the end goal is whether it be for us in this forum in or the North I pray that everyone involved does not lose site of that goal. (RH)

Would it be worth pointing out at this point that Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. Discussion on article talk pages is supposed to be about how to improve the article, or resolve disputes about artcile content. No doubt this discussion is interesting, but non of it actually appears to be directed towards improving the article. -- Solipsist 15:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

It might be. It might also be woth pointing out that discussion about an article can help to increase researchers' knowledge on that particular article. Some people, when they look up entries in Wikipedia, also look to the discussion section for further insight. --Mal 23:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Mal, Out of respect for the Wikipedia rules and because, despite trying, we can not find a common ground on the issue I will not be posting any more discussions on this subject. I do want to respond to your comment on "my numbers" regarding internment. Between Aug. 1971 and Dec. 1975 1,981 people were interred and of these 1,874 were Catholic (95%) (RHSlainte 02:39, 14 February 2006 (UTC)) RHSlainte

RH, I wasn't disputing your figures as such - I was merely making it known that the percentage you stated was from your research, and not my own. As for your figures as presented here, regarding the number of internees, they look familiar enough and I have no reason to doubt them.

On the point of "common ground", I don't think I was trying to reach common ground - I was just correcting your misinformation. The common ground lies in the facts - not necessarily in opinions.

As for Wikipedia rules - I've not read anywhere (yet) that suggested it was against the rules to discuss articles on the article discussion pages(!) --Mal 05:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Talk_page#Usage "Wikipedians generally oppose the use of talk pages just for the purpose of partisan talk about the main subject. Wikipedia is not a soapbox; it's an encyclopedia. In other words, talk about the article, not about the subject." I don't think the above argument about Mary McAleese, Ian Paisley and internment has much to do with improving the actual article. This is not the place to argue about how great or how evil Bobby Sands was. Demiurge 10:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

The page you refer to also goes on to state: "It's entirely natural that partisan disputes take place on talk pages."

Having said that, I have only ever answered points raised on this talk page. For example:

• the comment suggesting ethnic cleansing was mentioned by the first and anonymous contribution at the top of this section: "help in convincig God to expel the anglo-saxon heretics".

• the suggestion that Bobby Sands gave his life so that people "could live in Peace and Freedom", ignoring the fact that Sands was involved in an organisation which, for many years, was specifically involved in removing life from people was mentioned by Rich H.

• RH also mentions Ian Paisley, the DUP and the UVF as havig been, in his opinion, the biggest "destabilizing" components in "the North".

• It was the anonymous user who had first introduced the topic of internment to this page.

In conclusion, instead of directing your comments to me, perhaps you should have directed your comments to the people who originally brought the topics up on this page. --Mal 11:39, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Great idea. Oh wait, he's a convicted terrorist and he topped himself. Whoops. Archibald99 23:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Memorials in Other Countries Section

I think this should be renamed as many events it refers to were not commemorations as such but more political "fall out" resulting from the Hunger Strike. Not sure what to rename the section so thought I'd seek other views. GiollaUidir 18:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Having looked through my thesaurus, nothing else comes close other than, perhaps, 'Memorials'. Alternatives of 'celebration' or 'honouring' both seem a bit crass. --Major Bonkers 11:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Whereas the posting of sectarian grafitti under the "Reactions" section obviously strikes you as perfectly acceptable. --Damnbutter 16:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Erratum

Error in the paragraph under the header "Prisoner", viz "In the late 1980s" should read "In the late 1970s"

Context

This article does not seem to place Sands' life in context. There needs to be a slightly fuller description of the Troubles between 1974 and 1976 to explain (a) what was going on, and (b) why it was treated so seriously by the government. His 'Demands' whilst as a prisoner (which I have added to the main page) are ridiculously petty, but led to his death and those of a number of his comrades; and subsequently breathed life back into the terrorist campaign and led to an upsurge in the Troubles.

Whether his death actually achieved anything worthwhile is another matter entirely. The web-page suggests that a number of streets around the world have been named after him: an heroic memorial to a man who starved himself to death for his 'right' to wear his own clothes in prison? In Shakespeare's words, 'nothing so became his life as the leaving it': his post-mortem status arises as a touchstone as an extreme republican 'martyr', or bigot, depending on your point of view. It is at least arguable that his death, by continuing the Troubles, precluded any immediate political settlement.

Incidentally, all the links seem to be to be to POV web-sites.

Finally, one of the contemporary Rangers football chants went (to the tune of 'She'll be coming round the mountain when she comes'):

Would you like a chicken supper, Bobby Sands; Would you like a chicken supper, Bobby Sands; Would you like a chicken supper, You filthy Fenian ------, Would you like a chicken supper, Bobby Sands?

--Major Bonkers 11:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

--Re "Sands as Catholic zealot below- Who appointed me as "arbiter of what goes on this page."? What are you on about, do you understand what a talk page is? I note your attempt to turn the whole POV issue back on to me for my observations i.e by pointing out that O'Brien is an anti-republican commentator I am guilty of POV? This is a simple undisputable fact, aside from his membership of the UK Unionist party, and long career predicting IRA coups and civil wars how can you accept a pay-per-view link to an article as valid proof of anything? You seem to have a lot of blind faith.

The writings of Bobby Sands are widely available, feel free to write a section on them yourself if you're really interested.

And what exactly does filthy sectarian grafitti got to do with anything?

--Damnbutter 16:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Name

What is the justification for ga:Roibeard Gearóid Ó Seachnasaigh, which is hardly gaellic for Bobby Sands? Not to mention which, nobody would look him up under such a name. - 09:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't remember which book its in but I think it might be Ten Men Dead that the author points out that of all the hunger strikers Sands was the only one without a Gaelic translation for his name. The one will have to do till someone gets a better translation. GiollaUidir 15:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Better to translate wrongly than leave it out? - Kittybrewster 06:51, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Removals

I removed the succession boxes and changed the note about his being "Baby of the House." As he was never actually an MP, he was never "Baby of the House." Notwithstanding the fact that he never took his seat (being in prison), and the fact that he died almost immediately after election, Sands did not and would not have taken the required oath of loyalty to the Queen. This disqualifies him from sitting as an MP, acting as one or claiming status as one, and disqualifies us from doing the same. Wally 03:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

This is the first time I have heard the claim made that he was not an MP. Even the Speaker of the House of Commons, when he announced his death, described him as "member of this house for Fermanagh and South Tyrone". Him and subsequent abstentionist MPs (there are four at present) are generally described as MPs, see lots of reference works, including official parliamentary references. PatGallacher 08:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted Wally's changes. Elected representatives from Sinn Féin are still MPs. Even though they do not take their seats. It is misleading to suggest otherwise. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 08:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

And even the "elected representatives" page on the Sinn Féin website calls them "Westminster MPs". Timrollpickering 09:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

You cannot be an MP without taking an oath to the Queen, yes? Just because Sinn Fein calls them MPs does not make it so. They are elected, but they are never representatives as they decline (for perfectly legitimate reasons) to take said oath and thus sit in the Commons. It is misleading, indeed, to suggest something contrary to that. Wally 17:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

No taking the oath allows one to speak and vote. But the clincher is the Returning Officer's statement - roughly "I do formally declare that the above mentioned is duly elected Member of Parliament for this constituency". i.e. They become the MP there and then. Current Sinn Féin MPs are entitled to Commons resources (and indeed some have been better "attenders" of the Commons than some former Unionist MPs!) because they have been elected. Taking the oath isn't the crucial point. Timrollpickering 18:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... I stand corrected, then. Sorry for the inconvenience, all. Wally 02:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Sands as Catholic "zealot"

According to the writer and politician Conor Cruise O'Brien (who was a strong supporter of Irish unionism and opponent of Irish republicanism), Sands became increasingly zealous in his Catholic faith and received, while on hunger strike, from a "priest in Kerry who had given him an icon of the Virigin Mary and encouraged him to take arms for his oppressed people" (in Northern Ireland) [1].

A. O'Brien is a political chameleon who has adopted a blinkered anti-republican stance since the 1970's. His opinions are not neutral and the man has been predicting civil wars and military coup for years - the external link is proof of nothing and is merely spam for one of O'Briens commercially-available-only diatribes. I suspect his "proof" if examined comes from "unnamed sources".

B. A visit from a priest is proof of nothing, I suspect the intention here is to paint Sands as a religious bigot which is mere wishful thinking. Sands grew up under the Stormont regime and his experience of ethnic cleansing was more incentive to resist British rule than a visit from a southern priest, be he armed with an "icon of the Virigin Mary" or not.

If someone wants to allege Sands was a zealot, provide proof not fabrications, his own writings show that he was a moderate Catholic and often critical of the church. He was a socialist after all. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Damnbutter (talk • contribs) 17:41, 27 June 2006.

Damnbutter - your personal views on Sands are irrelevent. Wiki merely records the debate. Please do not remove referenced material 09:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)~~

Mr/Ms. Anonymous - Are you deliberately missing the point - this was not referenced material, to reiterate, the link attached (your "referenced material") was to a pay-per-view article of one POV commentators personal views. Provide real proof that Sands was a Catholic zealot and the allegation can stay. Until then as you said my personal views on Sands are irrelevant, but that doesn't mean I have to turn a blind eye to sweeping, personalized highly POV generalizations masquerading as fact. --Damnbutter 12:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree with Damnbutter. Sands can hardly be held responsible for what gift a third party chose to give him -- if some crank had sent him a swastika, would that make him a nazi? There's nothing in the reference to show that Sands himself shared the opinions of the Kerry priest. Demiurge 12:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Except that it's a different matter if he chooses to receive a prison visitor. At its simplest, Northern Irish politics breaks down into Catholic Republican/ Protestant Unionist; although the IRA/ Sinn Fein campaigns on a socialist ticket, it is united with elements of the Catholic church who support the main aim of complete independence. Sean O'Callaghan has alleged that IRA members were helped by priests with safe houses and that members were sometimes blessed before going on missions.

I'm also not sure who appointed Damnbutter arbiter of what goes on this page. I suggest: (1) that the O'Brien quotation is restored - incidentally, your description of his views, above, is grossly POV, Damnbutter; and, (2) if you are still unsatisfied you can post a 'The neutrality of this article is disputed' box on the page. Better still, you can look at my comments above under 'Context' and try to put the differing views of Sands' legacy on the page. O'Brien's comments are valid because they inform Sands' legacy; that you disagree with them is neither here nor there.

As you seem to have read Sands' writings, why not also include a section on them?--Major Bonkers 13:56, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

See my repy under "Context" above --Damnbutter 14:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Music

I've removed The Undertones It's gonna happen because there is nothing in its lyrics to indicate that the song is about Bobby Sands:

Happens all the time

Its going to happen - happen - till your change your mind

Its going to happen - happen - happens all the time

Its going to happen - happen - till your change your mind

Best story I ever heard

The truth about fat Mr X and the young girl

See how far he'll let you go

Before he persuades you when you're walking home

Happens all the time ...

Watching your friends passing by

Going to sleep without blinking a blue eye

Too slow to notice what's wrong

Two faced to you when you're taking them on

Happens all the time ...

Everything goes when you're dead

Everything empties from what was in your head

No point in waiting today

Stupid revenge is what's making you stay

Its going to happen - happen - till your change your mind

Barnaby Wild 13:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Disgusting hagiography

This article is repugnant. It is nothing more than an apology, a canonization for a convicted terrorist.

Whatever the crimes of the British government against the Irish from 12th century on--and there were many--elevating a terrorist to a saint is simply revolting.

This man was a leader of an organization which is responsible for more than 2,000 murders. An organization that, at its height, was considered to be the most effective terrorist organization in the world.

Worse than that, they made common cause with the enemies of freedom and democracy, especially Libya which supplied many of the weapons which the IRA still refuses to surrender.

As an American of both Irish and Scots-Irish descent I also find it reprehensible that so much of the IRA's money came from Americans of Irish descent.

This article screams for a complete rewriting by a truly impartial scholar/editor. Until then, it will remain a stain on wikipedia's efforts to be a true encyclopedia. PainMan 23:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)