Talk:1812 Overture

Bad News Bears

Wasn't this song played as a theme for the movie "Bad News Bears" (First older version)? Perhaps the sequel back in the 70's? Not the 2005 piece of crap

-- That was the theme from "Carmen" --MDK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.68.81.105 (talk) 18:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Zvon?

The article refers without explanation to "zvon" a number of times. My research can only find reference to this as being simply the Czech, Slovakian, etc, word for "bell". However, the way it is mentioned in the article (which refers to "bells playing a zvon") it sounds like it means it as a particular type of composition, or perhaps something like the "changes" played by church bells in the UK and elsewhere. Does anyone know more? The article needs explanation, but I don't have the expertise to provide it. 84.178.136.47 (talk) 16:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The campanology article identifies a zvon as a set of Russian bells, and the Russian orthodox bell ringing article describes a zvon as "a toll on any bell or bells" in the Russian technique. I believe the latter sense is being used in this article, and I am linking accordingly. Baileypalblue (talk) 09:08, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Patriotic American holidays

Why is this song played for patriotic American holidays? What do the Russians and French think of this?

I assume the main reason is that it's a rousing, martial piece in keeping with the holidays, not any particular affinity for Imperial Russia (although the US was neutral in regards to the Napoleonic wars, we were essentially on the side of the French by fighting Britain -- making our affection for the piece even more incongruous). Also, the cannon fire makes it really popular with kids, perfect for outdoors pops concerts. I'm sure that lots of people think it's a celebration of American victory, though. (Note that the British think they won because we failed to steal away Canada!) --Dhartung | Talk 23:25, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Dhartung raises an interesting point... It is strange that Americans use such a rousing piece of music to celebrate a military defeat, rather than something more lamentous. In fact, it's unusual that they celebrate it at all! Does anyone know of any other cases where a nation celebrates their defeat in such a manner? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.182.109 (talk) 12:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

"In 1974, lamenting the declining audiences attending the Boston Pops concerts at the Hatch Memorial Shell on the picturesque Charles River Esplanade - a tradition dating back to 1929 - Boston businessman, David Mugar and the legendary Boston Pops conductor, Arthur Fiedler, hatched a plan to enliven the concert. The crowd responded so enthusiastically to the revitalized program, the pair made it an annual event. The enthusiasm was due in no small part to the concert's featuring the "1812 Overture." The musical program featured booming cannons, ringing church bells, patriotic sing-alongs, and a grand fireworks finale. The Boston event became the first to play the overture as part of a Fourth of July celebration. The innovation has since been duplicated in countless cities around the country." Copyright © Dave Lampson, 1996-9. from http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/tchaikov/1812.html Could someone more Wiki proficient add this to the main page, please? ----Burningchrome 22:01, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The War of 1812 was by no means a defeat for the United States. Every grievance that they had was corrected (impressment of sailors by the Royal Navy, inability to trade neutrally with Europe, Indian raiders armed by the British, etc.) either directly or indirectly through the course of war, and the high material cost of the war has to be balanced with the surge of patriotism after the Battle of New Orleans and the subsequent "Era of Good Feelings". On the other hand, Britain was primarily involved in stopping Napoleon, did not gain anything from the War of 1812, and the only claim they have to victory is that the Americans did not succeed in annexing Canada, which was not a war goal. Chaparral2J (talk) 19:04, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

This is a bit of a sidetrack to the main article, but I think you'll find that annexing land was a war goal of the US campaign of 1812. They failed in that regard. I've never heard anyone claim the US won anything in the Anglo-American war of 1812 - the general consensus is status quo - but there are also strong arguments that the US were defeated as their primary aim (land grab) was thwarted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.183.201 (talk) 12:47, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Once again the point must be restated. America held New Orleans against the British. And the stagnation of the UK persisted (to this day), as the ascent of the US continued. As to Canada, yes, the US did not make territorial gains, but neither did Britain. And one must look past this time to see Americas continued growth in strength and size while Britain began to lose ground across the entire globe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.95.241.57 (talk) 05:44, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

There is simply no way that the War of 1812 can be considered a US "defeat" -- the main problem facing Madison was that the Brits were interfering with US shipping in the Atlantic, which was the backbone of the early US economy. Check the wiki article for other reasons -- kidnapping US sailors, Brits siding with various native American nations, etc. Upon signing of the peace accords, those issues were resolved favorably for the US. Still, the Brits did torch the White House, so I guess the war can't be considered an unqualifed victory. I've always thought of it as more of a fight to tie up the loose ends from the Revolution, which it did.

I also disagree with this business of most Americans not knowing that the Overture was based on Napoleon's pyrrhic victory at Borodino. I grew up in rural Virginia and upon hearing it as a child, knew that it had to do with Napoleon and Moscow, but I admit I was little fuzzy as to why. The simple reason that it's so popular with US audiences (and everywhere else I bet) is that it's a sonic tour de force, perfect for family-oriented concerts, especially those big outdoor performances. IvyGold (talk) 22:05, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Debut

Front page: "1882: The 1812 Overture debuted in Moscow." This article: "It was to have debuted in 1882 in Moscow, but that never happened." Well? --Golbez 14:11, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Grove Music ([1]) lists the debut as 20th August 1882. Where does it say the debut never took place? If it didn't, why not, and where and when was the actual debut? SpaceFrog 16:02, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Versions with live cannon fire

ISTR there was a version of the 1812 recorded on a Pacific atoll or other island, with cannons or howitzers. I'm positive I saw a TV commercial for it in the 80's, the album also included other traditionally loud pieces of classical music. I don't think it was the Time-Life music "Classical Thunder" collection.

Anyone else recall???? I also saw a version of the 1812 done by massed Military bands in Wembly Stadium during a Miltary Tatoo. I tried to find the video but cant seem to remember the right year.PBS was doing a fund drive when they played it.

The Battle Proms Concert series play it every summer at a number of stately homes around England including Blenheim Palace - They also play Beethoven's Wellington's Victory with 193 live cannons! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slough (talk • contribs) 14:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Recording Removed

Without identification and attribution of the conductor, performers and publisher, the previously linked recording of the 1812 Overture cannot be assumed to be within the public domain. Additionally, academic standards require the attribution of the above.

Discuss it on the page for that file (here). I believe you will need to add a tag that the copyright is unclear, and wait 7 days, then it can be deleted. At least that's the procedure for images with unclear/nonexistant copyright clearance. You can remove the reference to it in this article while we wait for the issues to be cleared up, but I don't think there should be discussion on the actual article about this issue. Since this appears to be a legitimate issue, I will add the tag and go through the process if you do not. --W.marsh 22:39, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

While searching on Google, I noticed that [2] seems to have an MP3 of the exact same recording (I determined this by playing the two files in sync). Pentap101 05:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

A Capella Version

It might be fun to note that the Swingle Singers have an a capella version of the 1812 Overture. A brilliant piece of music.

Television commercial

In a 1960s commercial for Quaker Puffed Wheat Cereal, with lyrics that touted "It is the cereal that's shot from guns."

... Is this actually true? It predates me. Does anyone have a source (or can at least verify they've seen this)? Baxil 03:11, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I can't verify the commercial, but I do remember a very funny skit by Stan Freberg from around 1957 about Puffed Grass, in which a handful of grass was put into a 6-gun and shot into a (preferably cast-iron) breakfast bowl, to make a delicious, nutritious and chlorophyll-filled cereal. Maybe Quaker stole the idea from him. (I can't believe I'm doing this on a page devoted to discussion of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, but there you go, Wikipedia has something for everybody. :) .JackofOz 04:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I distinctly remember the commercial. Every time I hear the 1812 Overture (I live near an amphitheater, so I hear it all week during the July 4th celebration every year!), I find myself singing "This is the cereal that's shot from guns." It was probably in the mid- or late-1960s. I guess that shows the power of a good jingle! Drerwin 11:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I remember it too, and thinking that it was odd that Quakers would have guns to shoot cereal from. Googling ... the process was invented, it seems, in 1913, initially used for rice and wheat. http://www.heartlandscience.org/agrifood/qoats.htm http://www.mnhs.org/school/online/communities/milestones/PUFadv1T_transcript.htm htom (talk) 03:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Original Title

Russian Wikipedia says the title is: "Увертюра 1812 года". The last word "года" (goda) is the genitive case of the word "год" (god), meaning year. In Russian, the genitive is used with dates to indicate something is happening "on date X" or "in the year Y" - as distinct from merely identifying the date, eg. "the date/year is Z", in which case the nominative case is used. This suggests the meaning of the original Russian title is Overture "In the Year 1812". If the meaning were Overture "The Year 1812", the original Russian would have been "Увертюра 1812 год", not "Увертюра 1812 года".

My sources also say Tchaikovsky called it "Ceremonial Overture", not just Overture. The article renders this as "Festival Overture".

Can anyone comment meaningfully on these matters? JackofOz 04:43, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no, but while we're at it, can someone explain the French name for the piece, Ouverture Solonelle? Does that mean "solemn"? +ILike2BeAnonymous 07:01, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

According to an online translator, it means "solonelle opening" Chard513 (talk) 00:22, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Volition

I read in the book ESP: The New Technology By Daniel Cohen, and it stated that the Apple II game "Volition" by the Psychological Research Laboratories would play the 1812 Overture upon successfully willing the line in the direction that you intended to. Should this be noted in the 'Appearances in popular culture' section? --Osho-Jabbe 05:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to put it in if anyone disagrees with my decision, feel free to remove it. Osho-Jabbe 06:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Italicized Title

Aren't song titles normally spelled "song" rather than song? I changed it recently but it was changed back, so now I'm just not sure. Here are some examples of what I mean:

• Far Cry (song)
• Hey Jude
• Johnny B. Goode

Is there a specifically different way of writing it if it's a classical piece or a suite? The Fwanksta. 9:48, May 5, 2007.

REcording

the song is nice, what about getting a sound file 4 the article --Andersmusician $ 05:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

"Song"? What "song"? +ILike2BeAnonymous 05:13, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Hear hear! I am a music teacher, and I spend half my life asking that question when students refer to a non-vocal piece of music as a "song". 84.178.136.47 (talk) 16:40, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Again: the debut

The introduction states:

• The overture debuted in the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow on August 20, 1882.

However, later we read:

• No 1881 performance took place. The plan may have been too ambitious, but in any case Alexander II was assassinated in March of that year, deflating much of the reason behind the project. In 1882, at the Arts and Industry Exhibition, the Overture was performed indoors with conventional orchestration. The cathedral was completed in 1883.

Not a single word about the cathedral here. Does anyone know more?
Something else: there are recordings of this overture with choir. Could this be the original version? Fransvannes 19:19, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Citation for First Recording

Cited the source of the First Live Recording to Telarc record label. Tomayres 13:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Instrumentation

Changed "is another perversion of the work that should not take place." to "it is not preferred."

I think, however it might be technically correct, perversion is obviously a loaded term. StormRyder 00:48, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of instrumentation, the current text is confusing, and possibly wrong. It reads "[the overture] is scored for a military brass band with an additional symphonic group made up of piccolo, 2 flutes, 2 oboes ... and an optional brass band." I'm puzzled; does this mean it's scored for a brass band, plus symphonic instruments, plus another "optional" brass band? Or is there one brass band that's optional? Can someone who knows their stuff check this? +ILike2BeAnonymous 11:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Version 0.7

I had originally rejected this (see the set nomination), because of the pop culture section and the lack of refs. I see that the former has been cleaned up - thanks for that! If someone can add a couple of solid refs on core material to the article, it should be ready to include in the DVD release. Since there is a lot of work on this article right now, I'll hold off for a little while to see if this can be fixed. Thanks, Walkerma 04:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Soviet-era revisions

In the Soviet era, there were revisions to remove God Save the Tsar. This should be mentioned. Modus Vivendi 19:50, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Farscape reference

There is a small character in the show that is named after and plays 1812. It is a DRD by the name of "1812". Should this be added? silentsam84 3:44, 08 November 2007 (UTC)

Complaint

The military history referred to in the article seems to be one-sided Russian propaganda. Borodino was a Russian defeat. (I'm sure it's not characterized that way in Russia, which is where the article author must've gotten his information.) Whenever you assemble your army in front of your capital to stop an enemy army from marching in, then a battle ensues and your army is thrown out of its positions in disarray and forced to flee, allowing the enemy to seize your capital.... we call this a "defeat". Certainly, the French were eventually defeated by Mother Russia in the same way that the Germans would be 130 years later: by Arctic-like cold, hunger induced by brutal-but-effective scorched-earth tactics, and untenably-long supply lines under constant attack by partisans. But it wasn't because of Borodino.

HELP REQUEST: please send me user talk, regarding the procedure to follow to complain about an article, i.e., to have the article heading read something to the effect that its accuracy has been questioned, and generally flag the article. Markus451 (talk) 16:08, 13 January 2008 (UTC)Markus451

You make a very good point. In many ways, Borodino was a Russian defeat, and led to the occupation of Moscow by the French. What the overture is celebrating is the fact that the Russians did not surrender and that the French soon retreated afterwards. I renamed the section to be more general and refer to the french invasion of Russia. It could be cleaned up more, but I think those details should be left for the Napoleonic War articles. The overture itself is indeed Russian propaganda, written by a Russian composer to commemorate the failed invasion. DavidRF (talk) 03:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Moscow was not capital of Russia in 1812 (St. Petersburg was the capital). It was in a sense a victory for the French, but the fact that Napoleon did not destroy Russian army makes it the beginning of his defeat. --Georgius (talk) 10:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Performance venues

This section looks like "trivia". Do we need it? DavidRF (talk) 20:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the sections Performance venues and The overture referred to or used in other works look like overlong trivia sections. I'm going to cut some entries, and I encourage others to be be bold and either restore entries or (hopefully) cut more as needed. Baileypalblue (talk) 22:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Musical structure

While it'z good to know about the cannon shots, it would help to know more about all the music that came before those shots ring out. Jonyungk (talk) 00:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Dead Poets Society

In 1989 Peter Weir's movie Dead Poets Society Professor John Keating (Robin Williams) whistles in front of the class the theme of the overture.

Do you remember that? --151.57.15.223 (talk) 14:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure. And countless other movies, advertisements, television shows, etc. etc. etc. Can't list them all or that section would take over the entire article.DavidRF (talk) 20:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Modern Media

I think a section needs to be added of films that use this. V for Vendetta is one. Darthmat (talk) 11:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

There are simply too many to list. For this piece, the list could be well over a hundred. Long lists of pop culture references tend to overtake these types of articles, so the [[WP::CM]] has decided against their inclusion. DavidRF (talk) 15:59, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

But shouldn't the article at least note, say, the 2112 overture? 00:11, 12 June 2009 (UTC)~~

This piece has been used to the thousands in modern media. It would be impossible to list them all, and it certainly makes no sense to randomly pick one, like the one that is mentioned in the current version of the article. I am naming two exotic ones here fore the sole purpose of exhibiting how utterly nonsensical it would be to try to compile a list: Atari 5200 video game "Astro Chase" (Parker Brothers, 1983, main theme); Commodore 64 computer game "Summer Games II" (Epyx, 1985, closing ceremonies, SID subtune 21).--217.232.255.109 (talk) 16:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Cannon subsitutes

I played this in a schools orchestra in the 1980s that, for the performance, used stage fireworks inside steel drums offstage for the cannon. (They were extremely loud, and our conductor chose to insert an extra cannon shot at the end of the quiet introduction, just before the quicker theme. Gave the audience a collective heart attack!) Does anyone know of any documents that could be used as a source for similar such substitutes? --Rfsmit (talk) 20:20, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe other school arrangements suggest what to use for cannons. Was the "fireworks inside steel drums offstage" the conductor's idea or did he read it in the preface to the arrangement? Willi Gers07 (talk) 19:00, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I also believe that in the article it says bass drums are used as a cannon substitute. Chard513 (talk) 00:26, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Videos with this amazing music

These sites: [Overture 1], [Gala] have this amazing music.Agre22 (talk) 11:36, 17 October 2009 (UTC)agre22

Americo-centric lede

These sentences are currently in the lede:

On his 1891 visit to the United States, Tchaikovsky conducted the piece at the dedication of Carnegie Hall in New York City.

Tchaikovsky also conducted it on a number of occasions in Russia. Why is one particular performance in the US lede-worthy? It can stay, but not in the lede.

While this piece has little connection with United States history besides the War of 1812 diverting the British, freeing Napoleon to attack Russia, it is often a staple at Fourth of July celebrations, such as the annual show by the Boston Pops[3] and at Washington DC's annual program called A Capitol Fourth.

This is a bit like saying "While Beethoven's Eroica Symphony has little connection with the Duke of Wellington other than once being dedicated to his nemesis ...". The connection the 1812 Overture has with US history is indirect and tenuous at best. It's certainly uncited. I'd be very surprised if Tchaikovsky gave even a single second's thought to the War of 1812 (U.S.) when writing it. So, this has to go too.

It may be a staple of 4 July celebrations, but it gets regularly played in various other countries as well. This can stay, but not in the lede. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:20, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Refimprove template

The first part of the following discussion was copied from User talk:Robert.Allen. The discussion should be continued in this location. --Robert.Allen (talk) 17:57, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

In April 2007, this article had a refimprove template put onto it. I've done some work, and since the user who originally placed the template there is gone, I thought you could tell me if you think the template can be removed now. Brambleclawx 16:31, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

If you think there are enough valid references, then you may remove it. If another editor thinks there should be more, then they will add it back. I looked through the article, it seems to have quite a few citations, but I have not checked them in detail, so I do not feel I should remove it. --Robert.Allen (talk) 17:44, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

At least one of the citations (which is used four times) is to a website which is taken from the Wikipedia article itself. You need to verify that the citation is to an article which provides information which was not taken from the Wikipedia article. The Internet Archive can sometimes be useful to verify that the citation predates the information in the Wikipedia. In view of this I think this issue needs to be addressed more carefully. --Robert.Allen (talk) 17:52, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I have decided to remove the citations to www.classiccat.net, since it is not valid source as mentioned above. I have not had time to check the other citations. --Robert.Allen (talk) 18:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Any suggestions as to where there might be a good source? Brambleclawx 19:56, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I've added as many references as are within my ability. Other people will have to do add citations to the other spots, particularly the Recording History section. Brambleclawx 20:33, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you found some good ones. I'm working on other articles, so not sure I will be able to help out. --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:39, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I've posted a mention in the discussion of Wikiproject Classical Music. Brambleclawx 20:49, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Most used version

There seems to be one recording most used on TV and radio, one I've heard a thousand times (I know it's the same one I am remembering). It's the version used at the end of V for Vendetta [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8fI-dGWT74&feature=related ] and has artificial bells and big drums for the cannons (rather than real cannon sounds). Does anyone know which recording this is? It would be notable given it's frequent referencing. 86.7.211.128 (talk) 01:32, 30 January 2010 (UTC)