Talk:Andy McNab

"...is quite likely that the SAS squad inflicted no more than several casualties..."

_Several_? How many?

Strange choice of words

Agree with previous comment.

"no more than several casualties, if any at all" is ambiguous at the very least.

Considering the clandestine nature of the subject, it might be impossible to cite published references, but still... :)

Andy McNab went to my school 13/11/06

I see one major flaw in the critick

Quote:

"Due to the extremely sensitive nature of his work with the SAS, Andy McNab is the only author who has to submit his fiction to the British Ministry of Defense for review, and he is still wanted by a number of the world's terrorist organizations. He is therefore forbidden to reveal either his face or his current location. These last claims appear difficult to believe. Numerous other former SAS members, including Chris Ryan, Johnny "Two Combs" Howard and Shaun Clarke have also published fiction, with Ryan having also participated in the Bravo Two Zero patrol. Chris Ryan, and the former US Navy SEAL Richard Marcinko, are public figures with media careers, Ryan regularly appearing on television, most notably utilising his skills on one of Derren Brown's psychic stunt shows."

This part of the article says that Chris Ryan are a public figure, but if you click on the link [[1]] and read his Wikipedia entry it states: "It should be noted that Chris Ryan is a pseudonym."

I rest my case --Reddox 09:43, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair point. I wrote the quoted text, and assuming that's right I'll concede that. You'll note that Ryan and the others don't put such claims on their bios. Myself, I'd love to see some verification on his works being vetted by intelligence, or that he was the most decorated serving soldier at any time.

It seems pretty clear that he's trying to cultivate a mystique.

Well are you going to edit the text I pointed out? --Reddox 02:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

chris ryan is not a pseudonym, he shows his real face all the time on tv.

Indeed he does, and I'm fairly sure McNab once appeared as a Newsnight guest (subject the role of disabled men/women in the forces). I think the business of never showing your face etc. is overdone; retired SAS blokes crop up on tv all the time. "he is still wanted by a number of the world's terrorist organizations. He is therefore forbidden to reveal either his face or his current location." I'm not sure about that - as a writer doesn't he do book signings? Hakluyt bean 03:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

he does do book signings but apparently only employees of the book store are allowed to go and its usually held in the store room or below where the public cannot see him (i cite a contestant from last season of countdown on ch4 in the uk as my source for that, he worked in a bookstore where mcnab did a signing, not the best of sources i know but its the best i can do) user:aragami

Andy McNab did a signing at Ottakers (as was) in Milton Keynes a couple of years ago. I didn't go but there was no idication on the advertising posters that it was for employees only.

McNabs career as an author is more successful than Cris Ryans, that could be because he was basically the first to release a book after the Gulf War 1, or it could indeed be that he has better advice and a better business manager etc. If he has good advisors behind him, then maintaining that element of mystique certainly will do his career no harm. With regards to the book signings, I'm reminded of a claim that a book signing was cut short because his security team found an "IED" (Improvised Explosive Device) in a book in a store where he was due to appear. Again this is probbably bollocks, but it does the "Andy McNab" brand no harm. Finally, McNab writes in detail about his missions in 14 Det. in Northern Ireland "during the troubles" and I guess we can forgive the guy the idea that the IRA might want revenge. Having said all that though, I'm a total Cris Ryan fan, and throughly enjoyed "Hunting Cris Ryan". Tommo148

I was in the Blind Beggar pub on the Whitechapel Road today and, above their front fireplace, they have some insignia (RGJ and SAS) and a small plaque dedicated to the staff and patrons who were there on a particular night in 2006. All of these are from Andy McNab (says so right on the plaque) so he is certainly willing to show his face and have people know his identity in run down East End pubs. colchar (talk) 0:16, 6 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.127.234.98 (talk)

McNab's use of a pseudonym for 'security reasons'

Michael Asher in "The Real Bravo Two Zero" claims that the passenger in a taxi hijacked by McNab knew McNab's real name................... if you ever have any idea of his real name you never release it, however right or wrong you may be, MCNAB is a pseudonym for a reason. he has done wonders for the forces and this should be respected, Thanyou Johnny

Well, I don't know about the immediately above, but the reason some SAS authors use pseudonyms is marketing. Peter Ratcliffe for example doesn't. Hakluyt bean 00:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

'MacNab's' former SAS boss, Peter Ratcliffe not only uses his own real name, but also debunks the myth that Steven Mitchell requires a pseudonym for ‘security reasons’(Asher, M, 2003, "The Real Bravo Two Zero", page 247). There are no sources independent of 'McNab' to support his claim of 'security reasons', nor many of his other claims listed as fact in this article. This article should only contain reliable, sourced information, not fan dedications to an adventure novelist discredited by his own boss.Mr Pillows (talk) 04:41, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

In response to 86.93.225.174's subversive edit of this section: Please don't vandalise this article. McNab's real first name, 'Steven', is referenced from a widely available, legally published book source; Asher, Michael (2003). The Real Bravo Two Zero. England: Cassell. p. 139. ISBN 0304365548. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help), where McNab's statement of security reasons are also refuted by his former boss, Peter Ratcliffe. Changing a suitably referenced statement to a poorly, or non-referenced conjectional belief amounts to vandalism. Your further subversive edit of my statement above did not specify that you had modified someone else's work (namely mine!) and was unsigned by yourself. I can assume from your edits that you are probably about 16 years of age, so I don't hold it against you, but understand that wikipedia is about referencable information, not a fansite for your 'army' hero.Mr Pillows (talk) 23:01, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Unless - and until - 'McNab' debunks it himself I consider it a violation of his privacy. So I disagree. Some use pseudonyms for marketing, some don't use pseudonyms at all. Which ever suits them, it should be respected! What are you? The Truth Police?? What matters on Wiki is that people get information - it's not relevant if someone is called A, B or Chopstick. Thank you for not holding it against me, however, I do hold the patronising remark 'you are probably about 16 yrs of age' against you though. 86.93.225.174 (talk) 16:32, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I did not write ‘The Real Bravo Two Zero’ (ISBN 0304365548), I did not publish it and nor did I sell any of the many thousands of copies that have been sold. "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability". If 'McNab' wanted privacy, he probably wouldn't have written some 20 books (including "the highest selling war book of all time"), set up his own website which notes himself as "the British Army's most highly decorated serving soldier", worked for The Sun newspaper as a celebrity reporter, nor appeared on Big Brother. These are not the typical actions of one seeking privacy - and celebrities who continue to use thier fame for personal gain forfeit such rights.Mr Pillows (talk) 00:46, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

= = = If McNab did NOT want privacy concerning his name, he would use it openly. You will not find his name anywhere but in places were smart asses feel they do not have to respect his wish to only use his pseudonym in public. There is no logic in your statement that the fact that he does the public things you mention above, rules out the fact that he wants to be known as “Andy McNab”. In all of his productions, he shares with the public what he wants to share (and only what is ‘allowed’ by the MOD). Being a public figure (whether movie/tv stars, sportsmen, politicians etc) does not exclude a desire to keep parts of ones personal life private. They do not always (often not) get it (described so nicely in your article as “right to freedom of expression, enjoyed by the press and media”) - but that doesn’t mean it is fair! Just because you CAN release private information, doesn’t mean you have to, and it shows, imho, a lack of integrity.

The fact that you did not write/publish/sell ‘The Real B20’ is not really relevant: Verifiability is all well.. .can you give me one source that states that M.Ashers book, however called ‘the Real..’ gives 100% (verifiably true) facts? (If you HAD written the book, I’d still want that source – call me skeptic). Because it was published and sold (thanks to the popularity of McNabs and Ryans accounts!) – it does not mean it is (all) true!! I can give you endless lists of book titles that were published and sold (well) but are disputable!

I have no idea why you feel such a strong need to go beyond McNabs wishes – but I resent it. And I’ve spent enough energy on this - so you be one of those smart asses mentioned above if you can’t help yourself. I’m done with it.206.122.102.52 (talk) 13:42, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Of all the celebrities in the world, it is famous autobiographers who most give up their right to privacy. Peer review and scrutiny is standard practice for all academic work, and when an autobiographer makes themself the subject of such a work, privacy is the price they knowingly pay. Wikipedia is not about your wishes, my wishes or even Mr Mitchell's wishes, it's about verifiable information. The fact that Andy McNab's real first name is 'Steven' is not only verifiable in published literature, but also known by yourself to be true - as demonstrated by your misguided efforts to delete it. Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability.Mr Pillows (talk) 14:41, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

=== You are so full of assumptions, which is kind of odd for someone who thinks 'verifiability' is the key. Be happy with your Wiki-ing, hope it won't bite you in the tail someday... 206.122.102.52 (talk) 15:56, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Adding McNab's real full name to this article

I am giving notice that I intend to add McNab's real full name to this article because it is clearly important for any article about a real person. This has been attempted multiple times before, but has been removed each time by misguided editors. I am aware that this is going to cause an uproar from 'McNab' devoteees, however the edit is verifiable, and most importantly, it is the right thing to do for the sake of encyclopedic content: Wikipedia is not a soapbox for McNab and additionally, Wikipedia is not censored.

Not that it is required, but below is a brief justification for those who disagree that Wikipedia should inform readers about the truth behind their 'war hero'. I believe it covers all of the concerns that have so far been raised on this talk page.

Legality

• the British Official Secrets Act 1989 does not specify any legal restrictions on naming current nor ex-SAS personell.
• 'McNab' himself has stated "It's not a rule, it's common sense".
• The real name of 'McNab' was published by the British Government themselves In The London Gazette in 1998 after he had left the SAS, and is still available online from the original British Government source, as is a previous publication of his name in a 1980 edition.

Privacy

• Peer review and scrutiny is standard practice for all academic work, and when an autobiographer makes themself the subject of such a work, privacy is the price they knowingly pay. For the purpose of making a profit from authoring books, 'McNab' has made himself the subject of three autobiographies; Bravo Two Zero (1993), Immediate Action (1995) and Seven Troop (2008).
• When publishing the novel Bravo Two Zero, 'McNab' demonstrated no consideration for the privacy of Vincent Phillips, Steven Lane and Bob Consiglio, all of whom he named, whilst not naming himself.
• The verifiability of 'McNab's' actual name, is solely due to his own actions in promoting himself as a Distinguished Conduct Medal and the Military Medal recipient. If 'McNab' really cared about the privacy of his real name, he would not have included these distinguishing titles in his pseudonym.

Security

• 'McNab' himself admits that the pseudonym has commercial advantage, and is now a brand: "I've sold beer, watches".
• For an act to be considered 'retributive' (as opposed to 'random') it must be committed with some knowledge of the believed transgression. The threat of a retributional reponse, statistically increases by the number of persons aware of the action in question. As a trained security expert, 'McNab' is well aware of this threat relationship, and so his continual advertisement of his prior exploits (particularly in regards to Norhern Ireland) in both novels and the media indicates that he does not actually have any of the security fears that he so frequently cites.
• 'McNab' regularly attends book signings and is available for motivational public speaking, both actions contradicting any serious claim for security, as has been cited (Note: one of the supplied references is an promotional news release selling tickets to an event at which 'McNab" is going to appear - this is not the behaviour of someone with genuine security fears).
• 'McNab's' former boss, ex-SAS Regimental Sergeant Major and fellow Gulf War veteran, Peter Ratcliffe has scorned 'McNab's' use of a pseudonym, stating McNab is not "serving in the regiment any longer. So what possible reason could [he] have for concealing [his] true identity?".
• 'McNab's' claims of genuine security fears are not verifiable by Wikipedia's standards. The only source is 'McNab's' personal website, personal claims in media interviews and dedicated fan-sites which often act as puppets because of the psychological observation that "fans bask in the reflected glory of the target".

Verifiability

• 'McNab' has always used the initials 'DCM' as part of his title when authoring books. 'DCM' refers to the 'Distinguished Conduct Medal' 'McNab' won during Operation Granby, Gulf War, 1991. Only 6 DCMs were awarded in this operation; the names of each recipient publically appearing in the London Gazette. Only one of the recipicients was a former Green Jacket as 'McNab' has repeatedly said he was. That soldier is Steven Billy Mitchell.
• 'McNab' claims on his website to be the British Army's most highly decorated soldier when he retired in 1993, holding both the DCM and the Military Medal. A cross check of the London Gazette shows that only one soldier held both these medals in 1993. Details of the soldier's MM also reveal that it was won in Northern Ireland in 1979, as 'McNab' has repeatedly said his was. That soldier is Steven Billy Mitchell.
• Michael Asher states on page 139 of his book The Real Bravo Two Zero (2003) that McNab's real name is 'Steven' .

Mr Pillows (talk) 05:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Of the above sources, I'd suggest that the fact his first name is Steven is reliably sourced. The rest of his name looks like original research. What you need is a reliable source explicitly stating the fact, not your inference from other sources. — Matt Crypto 06:38, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I could be wrong, but I think we have different understandings of original research. During my studies, original research refered to collecting one's own data - and this is strictly forbidden in wikipedia articles. What I have posted above is a literature review of available publications, which is not original research because the sources are The London Gazette and Bravo Two Zero (1993). Even if you are correct, it would still be legitimate to state in the article: "According to McNab, he served with the Royal Green Jackets and won a DCM in 1991. According to the London Gazette, the only soldier to win a DCM in 1991 from the Green Jackets was Steven Billy Mitchell", but doing so would be a needlessly round-about way of saying what has already been said. I think the main complaint from editors in the past has not been the verifiability, but the 'security reasons' excuse which is addressed above. - Mr Pillows (talk) 07:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Agree entirely that "security reasons" are not really Wikipedia's primary concern, and actually a complete non-issue if his name has already been published in a reliable third party source. I do think, though, that what you are suggesting is synthesis of published material. WP:SYNTH advises, "do not put together information from multiple sources to reach a conclusion that is not stated explicitly by any of the sources.". — Matt Crypto 08:59, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

What about: "According to McNab, he served with the Royal Green Jackets and won a DCM in 1991. According to the London Gazette, the only soldier to win a DCM in 1991 from the Green Jackets was Steven Billy Mitchell"? - Mr Pillows (talk) 09:13, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'd be against it, it seems a bit like trying to keep to the letter of WP:SYNTH while avoiding the spirit of the policy. I feel if no reliable source has explicity named McNab, we shouldn't really do so either. — Matt Crypto 10:22, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I see it more as keeping with the spirit of wikipedia, and also keeping to the letter of the WP:SYNTH - that's two wins! This is a far more valuable stance to take than insisting a policy has more intent than it actually states. What do you think? - Mr Pillows (talk) 11:15, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

The fact that there does not seem to be a single source - let alone a reputable one - that has reached the same conclusion as you means that all of your efforts are inadmissable original research. Nick Cooper (talk) 04:49, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Fansite?

Is it me or does this article seem as though it could've been lifted directly from a fansite? As it contains more 'weasel words' than references, this article is quite vapid. Probably a result of 'Brand McNab' no doubt. SlopingFlange (talk) 19:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree - it really needs a bit of a redo - it really reeks of Waltiness - if it hasn't been done by his PR reps —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.65.166 (talk) 22:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Read his bio on his own website. Portions of this wikipedia page have been lifted from there word for word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.127.234.98 (talk) 23:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree, the article lacks objectivity, and contains many statements without citation for example "When he left the SAS in 1993, he was the most highly decorated serving soldier in the British Army". Says who? 78.147.173.43 (talk) 23:40, 21 January 2009 (UTC)xhacker

I am really sorry...

I decided to add an image to the article, but it's made it completely messed up! I'm really sorry, all I wanted to do was help and I've ruined it. Please, somebody help me!

Dibship (talk) 12:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Dont panick, calm down. Everyone realises what you have done was done to help the article not harm it, your not in trouble or anything and everyone is glad of your picture. Its no major mess it will be alright in the end. [[::User:Police,Mad,Jack|Police,Mad,Jack]] ([[::User talk:Police,Mad,Jack|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Police,Mad,Jack|contribs]])☺ 12:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

"Truly Heroic"

The most highly decorated patrol since the Boer War, the truly heroic exploits of the Bravo Two Zero patrol have been recognised the world over...

Is this supposed to be facts? Sounds more like military propaganda.

It should definately be put another way. Also, many people the world over believe engaging is military actions is wrong. The statement should be neutral, or quote a specific source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.224.159.186 (talk) 05:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Fake?

How come there is nothing in this article about "Andy Mcnab" being labelled a fraud by his RSM, section members from B-20 and the author of the book; The Real Bravo Two Zero?

Because this is effectively a fansite which doesn't allow criticism of their 'hero', however truthful or provable. You'll soon get deleted if you try, but good luck anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.84.143.73 (talk) 10:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

CPC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.2.18.207 (talk) 04:53, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Military career - First paragraph clarification

Is it just me or is the second half of the first paragraph a bit confusing? It mentions someone named "McElvenna" without previously introducing or describing him, and it doesn't explain any sort of direct relationship with the content of the article. I can only assume that "McElvenna" was purportedly among the group of IRA terrorists that McNab's patrol encountered. I suppose that "their contact" as used in McNab's quote refers to the engagement between McNab's patrol and the IRA group, but I don't understand why his quote about the army's (British army) assumption is used unless it is meant to show why McNab believed he had killed for the first time after being presented evidence that showed his victim survived the attack.

I am guessing these few sentences are together intended to present McNab's claim of the first time he killed and to present evidence proving (?) otherwise. Unmotivate 20:23, 15 June 2009 (UTC)