Talk:Christ myth theory

To Do List: Source Verification and Revisions

The following excerpt makes no sense:

"Myth proponents argue the gospels were written many decades or even a century after the death of Jesus by individuals who likely never met him"

If mythicists believe Jesus never existed, then how can they believe that the Gospels were written decades after his death? Answer: It is written with a pro-historical bias and needs to be rewritten in order to a reflect a true mythical point of view.

There is no historical bias, they're just stating that the gospels were written after the alleged lifetime of Jesus, which comes from the gospels themselves. They're point out an inconsistency saying, the documents suggest X happened between A and B, but the documents themselves were written well after A and B. 209.202.10.205 (talk) 16:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

To Do List: Source Verification and Revisions

Use this section to report false, misquoted, and misrepresented citations, and to explain subsequent revisions.

Citations Specifying the Narrow Definition of the CMT

section is for references only
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'm creating a new section for reference purposes. Can someone make it collapsible so it doesn't clutter up the rest of this page? (I forgot how to do it and I don't have time to look it up.) Defense of Biblical criticism was not helped by the revival at this time of the 'Christ-Myth' theory, suggesting that Jesus had never existed, a suggestion rebutted in England by the radical but independent F. C. Conybeare. William Horbury, "The New Testament", in Ernest Nicholson, A Century of Theological and Religious Studies in Britain (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003) p. 55 Zindler depends on secondary works and writes with the aim of proving the Christ-Myth theory, namely, the theory that the Jesus of history never existed. John T. Townsend, "Christianity in Rabbinic Literature", in Isaac Kalimi & Peter J. Haas, Biblical Interpretation in Judaism and Christianity (New York: T. & T. Clark, 2006) p. 150 The radical solution was to deny the possibility of reliable knowledge of Jesus, and out of this developed the Christ myth theory, according to which Jesus never existed as a historical figure and the Christ of the Gospels was a social creation of a messianic community. William R. Farmer, "A Fresh Approach to Q", in Jacob Neusner, Christianity, Judaism and Other Greco-Roman Cults, 4 (Leiden: Brill, 1975) p. 43 Negative as these [hyper-minimalist] conclusions appear, they must be strictly distinguished from the theories of the mythologists. According to the critics whom we may term minimalists, Jesus did live, but his biography is almost totally unknown to us. The mythologists, on the other hand, declare that he never existed, and that his history, or more exactly the legend about him, is due to the working of various tendencies and events, such as the prophetic interpretation of Old Testament texts, visions, ecstasy, or the projection of the conditions under which the first group of Christians lived into the story of their reputed founder. Maurice Goguel, "Recent French Discussion of the Historical Existence of Jesus Christ", Harvard Theological Review 19 (2), 1926, pp. 117–118 The Christ-Myth theory (that Jesus never lived) had a certain vogue at the beginning of this century but is not supported by contemporary scholarship. Alan Richardson, The Political Christ (London: SCM, 1973) p. 113 If this account of the matter is correct, one can also see why it is that the 'Christ-myth' theory, to the effect that there was no historical Jesus at all, has seemed so plausible to many... Hugo A. Meynell, An Introduction to the Philosophy of Bernard Lonergan (2nd ed.) (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1991) p. 166 [W]e have to explain the origin of Christianity, and in so doing we have to choose between two alternatives. One alternative is to say that it originated in a myth which was later dressed up as history. The other is to say that it originated with one historical individual who was later mythologized into a supernatural being. The theory that Jesus was originally a myth is called the Christ-myth theory, and the theory that he was an historical individual is called the historical Jesus theory. George Walsh, The Role of Religion in History (New Brunswick: Transaction, 1998) p. 58 The Jesus-was-a-myth school... argue[s] that there never was a Jesus of Nazareth, that he never existed. Clinton Bennett, In Search of Jesus: Insider and Outsider Images (New York: Continuum, 2001) p. 202 Though [Charles Guignebert] could not accept either the Christ myth theory, which held that no historical Jesus existed, or the Dutch Radical denial that Paul authored any of the epistles, Guignebert took both quite seriously. Robert M. Price, in Tom Flynn, The New Encyclopedia of Unbelief (Amherst, NY: Prometheus, 2007) p. 372 As we have noted, some legendary-Jesus theorists argue that, while it is at least possible, if not likely, an actual historical person named Jesus existed, he is so shrouded in legendary material that we can know very little about him. Others (i.e, Christ myth theorists) argue that we have no good reason to believe there ever was an actual historical person behind the legend. Paul R Eddy & Gregory A. Boyd, The Jesus Legend: a Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2007) p. 165 Price uncritically embraces the dubious methods and results of the Jesus Seminar, adopts much of the (discredited) Christ-Myth theory from the nineteenth century (in which it was argued that Jesus never lived), and so on. Craig A. Evans, Fabricating Jesus: How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels, (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 2006) p. 25 For as "extreme" a critic as Rudolf Bultmann, the existence of the historical Jesus is a necessity; and if historical criticism could successfully establish the "Christ-myth" theory, viz., that Jesus never really lived, Bultmann’s enture theological structure would be shaken. George Eldon Ladd, The New Testament and Criticism (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967) p. 15 And a recent attempt to revive the Christ myth theory (that Jesus was simply invented as a peg on which to hang the myth of a Savior God), hardly merits serious consideration. Reginald H. Fuller & Pheme Perkins, Who Is This Christ?: Gospel Christology and Contemporary Faith (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1983) p. 130 ...on the one hand, literal acceptance of everything in the New Testament as the veridical record of what happened, and, on the other, some form of Christ-myth theory which denies that there ever was a Jesus. But neither of these extreme positions stands up to scrutiny." John Macquarrie, The Scope of Demythologizing: Bultmann and His Critics (London: SCM, 1960) p. 93 But in contrast to the Christ-myth theories which proliferated at an earlier time, it would seem that today almost all reputable scholars do accept that Jesus existed and that the basic facts about him are well established. John Macquarrie, "The Humanity of Christ", in Theology, Vol. 74 (London: SPCK, 1971) p. 247 His published work on the Synoptic Problem had already contributed towards exploding the theory of the “Christ-myth”—that Jesus as a historical person never existed—by providing the two oldest records of His life to be genuine historical documents." George Seaver, Albert Schweitzer: The Man and His Mind (New York: Harper, 1955) p. 45 In Germany, England, Holland, America, and France, a group of scholars developed the hypothesis that Christ had never lived at all, the Christ-myth theory. Margaret Hope Bacon, Let This Life Speak: The Legacy of Henry Joel Cadbury‎ (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1987) p. 22 There have even been learned and intelligent men who have denied that Jesus ever existed: the so-called "Christ-myth" theory. Donald MacKenzie MacKinnon, Objections to Christian Belief (London: Constable, 1963) p. 67 JESUS CHRIST, MYTH THEORY OF. The theory that Jesus Christ never existed. Bill Cooke, Dictionary Of Atheism, Skepticism, & Humanism (Amherst, NY: Prometheus, 2005) p. 278

Fact Substitutes Abound in Criticism Section

While the previous sections seem to have their claims cited, there is fact-substitute phrasing in the criticism section. For example, "Nevertheless, Christ Myth theories find very little support from scholars." is a claim without citation with rhetorical force. Though it is difficult to provide justification for a claim that there is a lack of scholarly support for an idea, that is what would be required to make this claim. The semantic content of the sentence, also, is of questionable scholarly value, considering the above sections provide precisely the support from scholars that the critical authors claim is lacking. The criticism section may be re-written in such a manner as to not rely so heavily on the claim that "most scholars don't take the Christ Myth Theory seriously". Rather than making indirect references to sources that allegedly prove the historicity of Jesus, why not reference them directly, with their dates of publication, as is usually expected of Wikipedia?

169.231.35.176 (talk) 21:56, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes the section seems to rely solely on an appeal to authority without any acknowledgement of actual refuting evidence for Christ Myth Theories. This leads to questioning of the entire legitimacy of scholarly refutation of Jesus mythicism.Direct arguments against the legitimacy of the theory should be inserted here not appeals to academic authority. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.247.144.214 (talk) 00:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Richard Carrier points out there are two historical Jesus theories being argued in much of the material:

A Reductive theory where "Jesus was an ordinary but obscure individual who inspired a religious movement and copious legends about him"

A Triumphalist theory where "The Gospels are totally or almost totally true"

Carrier goes on to state "Either side of the historicity debate will at times engage in a fallacy here, citing evidence supporting the reductive theory in defense of the triumphalist theory (as if that was valid), or citing the absurdity of the triumphalist theory as if this refuted the reductive theory (as if that were valid)" (sic) (Carrier, Richard (2014) On the Historicity of Jesus Sheffield Phoenix Press ISBN 978-1-909697-49-2 pg 26-30)

To simplify matters Carrier comes up with his own criteria for a minimal historical Jesus:

"1) An actual man at some point named Jesus acquired followers in life who continued as an an identifiable movement after his death

2) This is the same Jesus who was claimed by some of his followers to have been executed by the Jewish or Roman authorities

3) This is the same Jesus some of whose followers soon began worshiping as a living god (or demigod)

If any one of these premises is false, it can fairly be said there was no historical Jesus in any pertinent sense, And at least one of them must be false for any Jesus Myth theory to be true." (Carrier, Richard (2014) On the Historicity of Jesus Sheffield Phoenix Press ISBN 978-1-909697-49-2 pg 34)

However Carrier actually spells out just what his three criteria for a minimal historical Jesus actually means:

"But notice that now we don't even require that is considered essential in many church creeds. For instance, it is not necessary that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate. Maybe he was, But even if we proved he wasn't that still does not vindicate mysticism. Because the 'real' Jesus may have been executed by Herod Antipas (as the Gospel of Peter in fact claims) or by Roman authorities in an earlier or later decade then Pilate (as some early Christians really did think) Some scholars even argue for an earlier century (and have some real evidence to cite) ... My point at present is that even if we proved proved the founder of Christianity was executed by Herod the Great (not even by Romans, much less Pilate, and a whole forty years before the Gospels claim), as long as his name or nickname (whether assigned before or after his death) really was Jesus and his execution is the very thing spoken of as leading him to the status of the divine Christ venerated in the Epistles, I think it would be fair to say the mythicists are then simply wrong. I would say this even if Jesus was never really executed but only believed to have been because even then it's still the same historical man being spoken of and worshiped." (Carrier, Richard (2014) On the Historicity of Jesus Sheffield Phoenix Press ISBN 978-1-909697-49-2 pg 33) --216.223.234.97 (talk) 02:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

New academic, peer reviewed work by historian Dr. Richard Carrier

Can one of you editors do something with this quote?

“In my estimation the odds Jesus existed are less than 1 in 12,000. Which to a historian is for all practical purposes a probability of zero For comparison, your lifetime probability of being struck by lighting is around 1 in 10,000. That Jesus existed is even less likely than that. Consequently, I am reasonably certain there was no historical Jesus… When I entertain the most generous estimates possible, I find I cannot by any stretch of the imagination put the probability Jesus existed is better than 1 in 3.” p. 600

Carrier, R. (2014). On the historicity of Jesus: Why we might have reason for doubt. Sheffield: Sheffield Phoenix Press. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.91.107.206 (talk) 18:33, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

IMHO that one work could clean up much of this article. Carrier even goes into why much of the material regarding a historical Jesus on both sides has problems.--216.223.234.97 (talk) 04:54, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Before adding it we need to establish the degree to which it is accepted in reliable secondary sources. The Jesus actually lived theory is based on the fact that numerous of his followers in the century after his death wrote accounts of his life and even after he came to the attention of the non-Christian community, none of their opponents ever claimed he never lived. So while that is not conclusive proof he lived, it is circumstantial and opponents need to provide an explanation why his existence was widely accepted.

To most historians whether or not he lived is unimportant.

TFD (talk) 04:08, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

We only need to do that if we want to present his view in Wikipedia voice, which is not what is being proposed. I'd say that Richard Carrier is one of the most prominent CMT proponents, so we can certainly use the quote. However, it appears the information is already present in the section on Carrier. If the OP wants to make some changes, s/he is free to have a go at it. Martijn Meijering (talk) 09:30, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated Assertion of Consensus

"Despite arguments put forward by authors who have questioned the existence of a historical Jesus, there remains a nearly universal consensus agreement among historical-critical biblical scholarship that Jesus lived,[7][8][9][10][11][12][13]"

Citing a few books (does that constitute peer reviewed scholarly work?) by a handful of authors does not constitute near universal consensus. For such a statement I would expect at the very least a poll, some sort of actual statistic that evaluates the group being identified as 'in consensus'. It seems fairly common in this article that books, the contents of which require purchase, are used as justification for the assertion of some sort of consensus. E.g also see:

"Ultimately, mainstream biblical scholars say there are historically verifiable events such as the baptism and crucifixion of Jesus,[27]"

Notice how that's a book by a single author somehow supposed to be representing the mainstream consensus of biblical scholars? Such 'citations' appear littered throughout the article. If it's going claim consensus it needs to demonstrate it, not cite a book by a single author. 209.202.10.205 (talk) 16:58, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

The policy for using Wikipedia voice to assert there is a consensus among scholars in a field is WP:RS/AC: we need a reliable source to state there is a consensus, we are not supposed to conduct a poll ourselves. If another reliable source contradicts the first, then we report the controversy, as we always do when reliable sources disagree. Martijn Meijering (talk) 12:42, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Francesco Carotta

User:Dukon has added a section on Francesco Carotta. No problem there, Carotta is of course not a WP:RS on ordinary articles under WP:FRINGE but definitely belongs here. Still, there were three problems I've edited out

• We cannot claim Carotta is a "scholar". A scholar means somebody with some kind of formal competence (a PhD on the subject and/or doing academic research on the subject at some university or research centre). Carotta, as far as I know, have no higher degree the studies he has done have been in other subjects.
• There were some peacock words, such as saying how 'exhaustively' Carotta has identified different things. We don't make evaluations like that.
• The whole second paragraph has nothing to do with Carotta. It made a number of claims and its source was a good WP:RS academic book, but the book does not even mention Carotta. Trying to push the book as support for Carotta when the authors ignore him is WP:SYNTH.Jeppiz (talk) 19:23, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Dukon (talk) 04:21, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your corrections on these points. It helps me learn proper Wikipedia practice, which of course is much appreciated.

I had no idea that Carotta does not have a PhD. I would have thought he did but I actually do not know so if you have checked then you're right. Are you saying though that even if he has a PhD but it is not in the subject of this book here cited, that it is not a Wikipedia policy to be able to call him a Scholar? I think he really has been exhaustive in pointing out so many of these parallels and for seeing this in the first place he has to be scholarly to do so. But if the Wikipedia policy blocks his being called a scholar due to an other-topic-PhD then so be it.

I wanted to include the Cambridge History "emergence of the written record" reference not because it mentions Carotta which it doesn't you're correct to point out, but because it DOES refer to the existence of an Oral Tradition which preceded (obviously) the written record. SO I put that Chapter of the larger Cambridge volume in there to document the existence of a valid oral tradition, in addition to of course the Oral Tradition Wikipedia pages. Do you think if I worded the sentence which had the Cambridge citation in a way to better highlight that only the Oral tradition is corroborated by the Cambridge scholars that it would be acceptable to keep that citation as part of the contribution?

Thank you very much for your Wikiexpert input!

Dukon (talk) 04:21, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Popular authors vs academics

I'd like to propose grouping popular authors separately from academic authors. The CMT is mostly a popular phenomenon, at least nowadays, but it would be useful to make a clear distinction between the many popular and few academic authors that thave published on the subject. Martijn Meijering (talk) 12:45, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Michael Paulkovich

I think Michael Paulkovich should be added to this article because his book No Meek Messiah claims that Christ is a myth.72.148.3.214 (talk) 03:41, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The Mythicist position

Acharya S/DM Murdock created the first succinct and comprehensive position for mythicists in her book Christ in Egypt (2009)outlined in the video and link below and it should be properly worked into her section of this article:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63BNKhGAVRQ

http://stellarhousepublishing.com/mythicist.html

The Mythicist Position:

"Mythicism represents the perspective that many gods, goddesses and other heroes and legendary figures said to possess extraordinary and/or supernatural attributes are not "real people" but are in fact mythological characters. Along with this view comes the recognition that many of these figures personify or symbolize natural phenomena, such as the sun, moon, stars, planets, constellations, etc., constituting what is called "astrotheology."

"As a major example of the mythicist position, various biblical characters such as Adam and Eve, Satan, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, King David, Solomon & Jesus Christ, among other figures, in reality represent mythological characters along the same lines as the Egyptian, Sumerian, Phoenician, Indian, Greek, Roman and other godmen, who are all presently accepted as myths, rather than historical figures."

- Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection (2009), page 12

JoseAziz78 (talk) 18:39, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Degrading of Acharya S does not belong here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory#Dorothy_M._Murdock_.2F_Acharya_S

Acharya S has made it clear that she does not ever want any other names used besides Acharya S or D.M. Murdock as explained in these links:

https://www.facebook.com/acharyasanning/posts/709849762361439

http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=28736#p28736

and the comment: "revives the early 19th century theories of Godfrey Higgins and Robert Taylor" is false and should be removed as anybody who has actually read her work would know.

This comment is just a smear and does not belong anywhere at Wiki: "Her views have been challenged by other mythicists such as Richard Carrier." So what?, Carrier's criticisms of her work have been sloppy and egregiously in error as explained here:

http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4771#p4771

This is another smear as even if true it has nothing to do with this article and should be removed: "Acharya has also been criticized by mainstream academics for concluding that Christ's crucifixion by Roman authorities is a repetition of Krishna being shot in the foot by a hunter or Odysseus tying himself to his ship mast to hear the sirens' song, and generally overreaching and relying on outdated scholarship.[194]

JoseAziz78 (talk) 18:56, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not:

• censor material that fanatics just don't like, especially if it's academically sourced
• give false balance to topics rejected by mainstream scholarship

Ian.thomson (talk) 19:15, 29 October 2014 (UTC)