Talk:Deconstruction

Recent edits by Byelf2007

1. The article ought to explain what the X is as soon as possible. Currently in the second sentence it says "Although he avoided defining the term directly, he sought to apply..." This is background info on *how* the concept came about by the creator but not *what it is*. Having "Derrida proposed the deconstruction of all texts where..." as the second sentence works much better in this respect.

2. The lede is currently very unprofessional: "On the one hand..." and starting a paragraph with "but" are particularly bad. I think I've cleaned them up pretty well.

3. A bunch of separate sections on what deconstruction is is very weird. I think it's much better to put them under "On deconstruction".

4. "Definitions by other authors" seems unprofessional to me. I prefer "Alternative definitions".

5. "Developments after Derrida" also seems unprofessional to me. I prefer "Post-Derrida development".

6. I believe etymology sections are encouraged. Byelf2007 (talk) 1 June 2012

Examples?

Maybe it simply can't be done, but the article confuses me as well. What I was looking/hoping for was an example or two of a deconstruction. I could explain in extreme detail what a car is, but without an example it will be virtually impossible to understand what a car actually is. If "deconstruction" as a concept is so poorly defined it's not possible to give a proper example, it means that "deconstruction" is nothing more than an opinion. In that case, the article should reflect that.

Put it this way: if the article is about a city (or any physical object), you show it's place on the map and a photograph/drawing of the entire city or a part of it. It it's about cars, you show a picture of a car. If it's about "arguments", you give some examples of arguments. If it's about quantum physics, you give an example of something they influence. If it's about a political view you explain what the view is, who holds it and what influence it has. If you can't show it and you can't provide an example of something it influences, it's an opinion. And opinions with little influence are, afaik, not encyclopedic. If I hate dogs and as a result kick a dog, my opinion doesn't have enough influence to be encyclopedic. If I kick every dog in the world to death, my opinion does have enough influence to be encyclopedic. (no, I don't kick dogs. generally don't fancy them either. please don't write an article about me) In short: this article needs some clear examples of not only who and what has been influenced, but also how deconstruction influenced that. W3ird N3rd (talk) 13:13, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps, that is not an easy task, because, there are things that you can only "show", but not "explain". And the deconstruction process, is a "process of showing" what, perhaps, cannot be explained... But I will try to do it in the near future, giving an example around "normality" (It was here befdore, but it was deleted in recent editing) and perhaps another, from "law", perhaps trying to resume some seminal paper from the Critical legal studies movement. I believe others could add some examples from history, cultural studies, literal studies, content analysis, etc.

Hibrido Mutante (talk) 20:19, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Sounds good. It's probably a good idea in this case to first go over them here on the talk page to make sure they are sufficiently clear. W3ird N3rd (talk) 22:42, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Derrida basically made it as hard as possible to describe or define or demonstrate Deconstruction, typical deconstructions are long and not always unfairly so. It is not entirely by chance there isn't any examples in the text.--Ollyoxenfree (talk) 23:11, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I did suspect so. Since I still don't understand it myself, would it be possible to deconstruct a single sentence? Or would it be possible to provide an example of some text before and after it was influenced by deconstruction? I honestly still don't understand what deconstruction is so I simply don't know. Maybe it would be possible to explain what deconstruction is capable of? For example: "Deconstruction allowed feminists to understand gay and lesbian are essentially the same thing". This is not true, if this statement is correct it is by accident. But something like that, saying what difference deconstruction made in anything. I'm just wondering: with deconstruction being so hard to describe, define and demonstrate, are we actually sure it's not an opinion? W3ird N3rd (talk) 22:42, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

This article is intended to be funny rather than serious, but I suggest that if you personally want to better understand deconstruction it may be helpful. However it is so completely apocryphal that is cannot be allowed in the main article outside the External Links section.--Ollyoxenfree (talk) 19:56, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

What is it that you are not able to understand? I cannot understand what you cannot understand... I was paraphrasing Wittgenstein... a"logical picture" can only be showed, not "explained". Personnaly I read the explanation from Derrida, ort from Rorty here, or from the Stanford Enciclopeia here.. and I can understand it...

I gave an example around the term "normalitty" (vs parasitic, fictional, etc.) "in the analytical tradition from which Austin and Searle were only paradigmatic examples.

In the description of the structure called "normal," "normative," "central," "ideal,"the possibility of transgression must be integrated as an essential possibility. The possibility cannot be treated as though it were a simple accident-marginal or parasitic. It cannot be, and hence ought not to be, and this passage from can to ought reflects the entire difficulty. In the analysis of so-called normal cases, one neither can nor ought, in all theoretical rigor, to exclude the possibility of transgression. Not even provisionally, or out of allegedly methodological considerations. It would be a poor method, since this possibility of transgression tells us immediately and indispensably about the structure of the act said to be normal as well as about the structure of law in general.

He continued arguing how problematic was establishing the relation between "nonfiction or standard discourse" and "fiction," defined as its "parasite, “for part of the most originary essence of the latter is to allow fiction, the simulacrum, parasitism, to take place-and in so doing to "de-essentialize" itself as it were”.

He would finally argue that the indispensable question would then become:

what is "nonfiction standard discourse," what must it be and what does this name evoke, once its fictionality or its fictionalization, its transgressive "parasitism," is always possible (and moreover by virtue of the very same words, the same phrases, the same grammar, etc.)? This question is all the more indispensable since the rules, and even the statements of the rules governing the relations of "nonfiction standard discourse" and its fictional"parasites," are not things found in nature, but laws, symbolic inventions, or conventions, institutions that, in their very normality as well as in their normativity, entail something of the fictional.

What is it so hard to understand?

You get a term used by an author or many authors (normality), you show how its meaning there depends on contrast-effects with other words ("parasite", "fictionality"). You show that "one of the two terms governs the other (axiologically, logically, etc.), or has the upper hand" (normality over fictionality). In this case, you show that talking about "speech acts in general" and particularly about "law, symbolic inventions, conventions, institutions, in their very normality as well as in their normativity" entails "something of the fictional." And in the way you show everybody why you get a blind spot if you do this. In the end your reader, prehaps, can better grasp the limits of analitical philosophy in geneneral because "In the analysis of so-called normal cases, one neither can nor ought, in all theoretical rigor, to exclude the possibility of transgression. Not even provisionally, or out of allegedly methodological considerations. It would be a poor method, since this possibility of transgression tells us immediately and indispensably about the structure of the act said to be normal as well as about the structure of law in general

I really don't see what is so difficult to understand here... You can argue that it is a good method to "exclude the possibility of transgression" when talking about "law in general". But... I don't see why you don't understand his argument...

The explanation we have there is based on the Standford version.... you don't understand it either? Please, try to read it and come here and explain what you are not able to grasp. I will do my best to explain it to you.

Hibrido Mutante (talk) 15:40, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Hibrido Mutante, thanks for taking the time, but we're obviously not on the same wavelength. I'm lost pretty much instantly. Ollyoxenfree, thanks! I took a look at that article and it makes more sense to me. I now also wonder how far TV Tropes is really off. This is what I came up with, I don't know to what degree this would be considered accurate:

In buildings, deconstruction means taking a building apart in a controlled manner to allow materials to be re-used or recycled. How exactly the materials are re-used or recycled is not specified. In the philosophical theory regarding textual criticism, one attempts to do the same with text and occasionally other works. Words and parts of sentences are looked at individually. Alternate meanings and opposite meanings for those words are considered, interpreting the text in various ways to understand it's meaning.

Deconstruction is not a formula. Different people could look at small aspects of a painting and explain what those aspects mean to them and how it changes their view of the painting as a whole. This is a form of deconstruction, but different people will not arrive at the same conclusion since any work will have a different meaning to each individual. Put simply, deconstruction could be considered a highly concious and verbose way of forming an opinion about a work. W3ird N3rd (talk) 07:40, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

W3ird, what you say doesn't make much sense. NO, "deconstruction" doesn't mean "taking a building apart in a controlled manner to allow materials to be re-used or recycledis not". You are thinking/looking for something else. If you still have dificulty here, try the link I gave from Stanford Standford and see if it helps (I suspect it will.. but if so, you should start considering the problem is on your side...)

Hibrido Mutante (talk) 22:04, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I follow the link you gave to TV Tropes ... well... no this is not what we are dealing with here. Please, create a new article and refer it in the disambiguation page

Hibrido Mutante (talk) 22:20, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 6 July 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved, treating this as a technical request, because the original mover now believes his action does not accord with the usual naming rules. EdJohnston (talk) 20:56, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

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Deconstruction (philosophical theory) → Deconstruction – I messed up. I'm sorry. The philosophical theory is not the first thing I would think of when I hear "deconstruction", but only after a move failed did I start reading the faq on moves, "not what first comes to mind", primary topics, etc and page views clearly indicate the theory is by far what most people are looking for. I'm just trying to undo what I messed up. W3ird N3rd (talk) 16:14, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Article reads like complete gibberish

This article may make sense to someone familiar with the topic, but to the lay-person it might as well be greek. I am not exaggerating here. I literally cannot comprehend anything that is being said here and I strongly suspect the same would apply to any lay-person.

W3ird N3rd, thank you for posting the link to the TV tropes article. I was at least able to obtain a basic understanding of the concept. I hope it's not massively misleading. JiFish0 (talk) 21:54, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

The TV Tropes article is not incredibly accurate, and it isn't covering exactly the same type of deconstruction as the philosophical construct of Derrida's. Trust me, this article is a vast improvement over a year ago, and I'd ask that instead of outright condemning the article you provide constructive criticism so that we may together work towards making it more readable for the layman.--Ollyoxenfree (talk) 21:21, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I'd _love_ to provide some constructive criticism, but I literally cannot understand enough of the article to do so. It's a case of understanding the words but the sentences making no sense. Is there an article the other 'type' of deconstruction? Is that information burried in this article? JiFish0 (talk) 02:40, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

JiFish0, does my explanation (starting with "In buildings, deconstruction means..") make sense to you? And Ollyoxenfree, is my explanation even remotely accurate? If not, could it be modified so it becomes accurate enough to use in the article? W3ird N3rd (talk) 13:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The easiest way to understand "deconstruction" is that it is intellectual charlatanism that arose as part of a nutty movement in art and literature criticism, that thankfully is in decline, called "postmodernism". For example, post modernists will "deconstruct" Newton's Laws and through this "deconstruction" claim that they are invalid because they are jut a manifestation of "male domination and capitalism" (becasue, for example gravitation resembles the "attraction a man penis for a vagina, or the capitalist's attraction for resources and assets" - I'm not making this up!). It has become associated with the political/economic left even though actual leftists (for example Noam Chomsky or almost certainly Marx weer he alive today) reject it as total nonsense. The best understanding of "deconstruction" can be had by looking up the "Sokal Affair" article.

I'm sorry W3ird N3rd your explanation isn't particularly accurate. How about this, before I go changing the article more and run up against more obscurantist editors I'll try and explain deconstruction to the two of you. The anonymous comment left above this is of course inaccurate and unfair. The Sokal Affair has nothing to do with deconstruction, and the example interpretation is senseless from anybody's perspective. Here goes: deconstruction cares primarily about the relationship between text and the meaning (or lack of) in it. A central belief is in differance, basically stating that meaning comes from the relationship between words and to their etymologies (synchronic and diachronic sources of meaning) rather than the word itself just having a meaning independent of context. From this view, since words are always understood in contrast with what is and what is not present, meaning is never totally there. The view that meaning is totally there is considered a bias that pervades philosophy called metaphysics of presence. Instead meaning is deferred to other elements of the text and to what is left unstated. Now to add another element in, there are also these things called binary oppositions, these are two elements that are opposites of each other and they can be anything. For example, existence and non-existence, traditionally certain philosophers such as Hegel believed that such an opposition cancels out in what could be put over-simplified as a synthesis of the thesis and antithesis. He believed for instance that the synthesis of existence and non-existence (being and non-being) was becoming. In Derrida's view, the synthesis cannot occur and not only that but the opposition is hierarchical, in other words the metaphysics of presence, the bias we all use, favours one side over the other. Existence is better than non-existence, straight is better than gay, action is better than words, etc. One can go on to show that often when a text tries to express a certain point of view, it may assume the opposite viewpoint. For example a support of gay rights might be written in the language of heteronormativity, etc. Does that make sense at all? --Ollyoxenfree (talk) 18:28, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Okay I had a moment of idleness so I just decided, hey, why not remake the lede from that explanation and reuse some of the stuff already there. So as of now, I have updated the lede so that hopefully it has greater clarity. I'll make a new section about that but comments are appreciated.--Ollyoxenfree (talk) 06:26, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

No, it is not because W3ird comes here saying what ever he wants that it gives you the authority to do what you want. What is there is result from consensus from many editors and you have to respect it.

Hibrido Mutante (talk) 22:06, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Quick Lesson in Clarity of Writing for all Editors

Always write with as few words as necessary, unless it would produce absolute gibberish. For example, this:

There has been discourse on the problems surrounding the difficulties in defining deconstruction. For example, Derrida himself claimed that all of his essays were attempts to define what deconstruction is, and that deconstruction is necessarily complicated and difficult to explain since it actively criticises the very language needed to explain it.

Could be better written as:

There have been problems defining deconstruction. Derrida claimed that all of his essays were attempts to define what deconstruction is, and that deconstruction is necessarily difficult to explain since it criticises the very language needed to explain it.

And the only difference is that one takes half the time to read.--Ollyoxenfree (talk) 21:33, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Changed the lede to be more succinct

If anyone has any suggestions please bring them here before reverting the lede paragraphs, it was a mess before and now it is relatively simple. If there are any persisting difficulties understanding it, please bring them up or make edits to improve clarity.--Ollyoxenfree (talk) 06:29, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

You are asking to others do what you were not able to do. What is there it the result of a long process of consensus. Please, sugest before editing it.

I'm not saying I don't agree with your suggestion (in general is a good proposal) but, please, lets go step by step.

I will copy paste your lead here. I will read it and give my suggestions during the weekend. Thanks

Deconstruction (French: déconstruction) is a method of critical analysis concerned with the relationship between text and meaning. Jacques Derrida’s 1967 work Of Grammatology introduced the majority of ideas influential within deconstruction.[1] According to Derrida and taking inspiration from the work of Ferdinand de Saussure,[2] language is a system of signs and words only have meaning because of the contrast between these signs.[3][4][5] As Rorty contends "words have meaning only because of contrast-effects with other words...no word can acquire meaning in the way in which philosophers from Aristotle to Bertrand Russell have hoped it might—by being the unmediated expression of something non-linguistic (e.g., an emotion, a sense-datum, a physical object, an idea, a Platonic Form)".[6] As a consequence meaning is never present, but rather is deferred to other signs. Derrida refers to the, in this view, mistaken belief that there is a self-sufficient, non-deferred meaning as logocentrism or metaphysics of presence. A concept then must be understood in the context of its opposite, such as being/nothingness, normal/abnormal, speech/writing, etc.[7][8] One of the two terms however is favoured by the tendency of logocentrism such as being over nothing, speech over writing, or male over female.[9] Deconstruction sets forth to overturn these biases and to demonstrate the interplay of the concepts in opposition, as they may not be synthesized as in Hegelian dialectics one may only observe.[10]

In the 1980s, deconstruction was being put to use in a range of theoretical enterprises in the humanities and social sciences,[11] including law[12][13][14] anthropology,[15] historiography,[16] linguistics,[17] sociolinguistics,[18] psychoanalysis, feminism, and LGBT studies. In the continental philosophy tradition, debates surrounding ontology, epistemology, ethics, aesthetics, hermeneutics, and philosophy of language still refer to it today. Within architecture it has inspired deconstructivism, and it remains important in general within art,[19] music,[20] and literary criticism.[21]

ThanksHibrido Mutante (talk) 21:52, 26 August 2015 (UTC)