Talk:Dhola Post

Map violates WP:NOR

@Kautilya3: The map in the "Establishment" section was created by you, was it not?Erik-the-red (talk) 15:00, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

No, it is OpenStreetMap. I have only marked the locations on it, as found in the RS. If you believe that any locations are marked wrong or unsourced, you are welcome to raise the issue. But the map itself is standard. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:09, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Oh boy, another of your infamous "technicalities." As you admit, you marked the locations. Therefore, the map previously shown in the "establishment" section was created by you.Erik-the-red (talk) 15:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: I thank you for your 10:25, 7 July 2020 edit, as your decision to "correct" your own previously marked location of Khinzemane from being clearly in China 27.80295°N 91.7457°E / 27.80295; 91.7457 to just inside India 27.7848997°N 91.7349505°E / 27.7848997; 91.7349505 perfectly demonstrates why the map of your own creation violates WP:NOR.Erik-the-red (talk) 14:01, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

The new location is sourced, with a citation given. So your old objection doesn't apply. Neither can you call it WP:OR.

There can be minor ambiguities when interpreting old sketch maps that are not drawn to scale. They are open to discussion just like all other content created on Wikipedia. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:43, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: There is no "old" or "new" objection. There is only the same objection: the map was created by you and hence violates WP:NOR. Despite your penchant for technicalities, you admit that it was you who marked the locations on the map. You admit that it is you who "interprets old sketch maps." Therefore, the map created by you is WP:OR. The fact that we are arguing whether a map created by you constitutes "original" research is yet another example of the extreme dishonesty and bad faith discussion that you have repeatedly engaged in.Erik-the-red (talk) 15:03, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Disputed area

Erik-the-red, you have removed the sourced content that states that the area was disputed. The relevant quote from one of the sources says:

Although no criss-cross of Indian and Chinese posts was anticipated on the NEFA frontier, a certain rashness was demonstrated by the placement of an Indian post in an area near the Bhutan-Tibet-NEFA trijunction. It was located in the valley of the Namkachu River, below a ridge called Thagla (see Maps 7 and 8). The post would be called Dhola, after a pass lying further to the south. In 1959 and 1960 the Chinese had shown themselves to be quite sensitive about this area, since they differed with the Indian interpretation of how the McMahon line was situated in it. The Khinzemane incident of August 1959 had occurred not far away.

Can you explain why you removed this fact? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:06, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

References

@Kautilya3: I removed it because the Henderson Brooks-Bhagat report on pages 52 and 53 make it clear that Dhola Post was established north of the McMahon Line. Therefore, Dhola Post was not established in disputed territory; it was established in China as per the McMahon Line. That India believes the McMahon Line does not follow the watershed principle is a separate issue. It does not contradict the fact that Dhola Post was established in China north of the McMahon Line.

Incidentally, since you have repeatedly argued that there is no source stating that Dhola is in Tibet, China, I can't help but notice that your own source that you've just quoted placed Dhola, quote, "near the Bhutan-Tibet-NEFA trijunction." Of course, according to you, it must be WP:SYNTH to argue that if Dhola Post was north of the McMahon Line near the Bhutan-Tibet-NEFA trijunction and on China's side of the McMahon Line, Dhola is in Tibet, China.Erik-the-red (talk) 15:15, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

As per WP:RS and WP:SCHOLARSHIP, Wikipedia gives weight to scholarly sources, not outdated government reports (and this particular report is not even declassified). You cannot delete content sourced to scholarly sources without producing other scholarly sources of equal stature, and even then you are bound by WP:NPOV to present all view points. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Oh, the Henderson Brooks-Bhagat report is an "outdated government report" now? I suppose that's an upgrade from your false claim that it's a "primary source." Speaking of which, I can't help but notice that you cited 7 primary sources from the Indian Ministry of External Affairs in the article. Will your hypocrisy never end?

Regardless of your blatant hypocrisy, you are muddying the waters on what the dispute is. Unless you have an "updated" "scholarly source" stating that Dhola Post was established south of the McMahon Line, the fact remains that as per the Henderson Brooks-Bhagat report, Dhola Post was established north of the McMahon Line, placing it in China. That India believes the McMahon Line doesn't follow the watershed principle is a separate issue that you're conflating.Erik-the-red (talk) 15:28, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Please respond in this section, not in Sources. That is meant to be just a list of sources that you can look up when cited.

Primary sources are used as per policy, WP:PRIMARY. They are not used to contradict WP:SECONDARY scholarly sources. Surely the scholars know whatever we know and much more. You cannot argue that whatever source you like is the only one that Wikipedia should rely on. Saying that it is "disputed" does not invalidate one view or the other. Both the Indians and the Chinese knew that they had differing interpretations. Exchanges had taken place when the Khinzemane post was first discussed. You are ignoring all this, and removing content that presents the context.

I am afraid you are repeatedly ignoring the Wikipedia pillar of WP:NPOV. This cannot go on for ever. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:23, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Please point out where the Henderson Brooks-Bhagat report (itself a secondary source) "contradicts" the secondary sources of your choosing.

Dhola is located north of the McMahon Line. There is no dispute about that. Therefore, Dhola is located in China. The dispute is whether the McMahon Line is "supposed to be" further north than it actually is based on the watershed principle. But that is a separate matter from Dhola being located north of the McMahon Line and therefore in China.

I have neither ignored this point nor removed content that presents the context. In fact, I have made sure the context is presented in "Location and background": "While the Thagla Ridge is to the north of the McMahon Line, India believed that the 1914 map incorrectly depicted the border due to inadequate exploration at that time. India held that if the boundary was supposed to follow the Himalayan watershed, then the correct border should have been on the Thagla Ridge."

The language I have used makes clear that the Indian position is that the border "should" be on the Thagla Ridge, but the McMahon Line is actually south of the Thagla Ridge. Your weasely "disputed" language does not make that clear.Erik-the-red (talk) 19:15, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, no. Hoffmann is saying that India and China differed on where the McMahon Line was in this area. That is what is meant by being disputed. Do you want to take this to WP:DRN. It looks like we are going in circles. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:27, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: "Sorry, no" to what?

As to your clarification as to what is meant by being disputed, well, duh. There's a border dispute. If China accepted India's interpretation of where the McMahon Line was in this area, then there would be no dispute. So again, your weasely language does not make it clear what the dispute is in this case. The dispute is that Dhola Post was established north of the actual McMahon Line (you've never disputed this); but India believed that when the McMahon Line differed from the watershed principle, the watershed principle should be followed, therefore the McMahon Line "should" have been further north in this area (I acknowledge this in the "Location and background" section).

So no, we aren't going in circles. You simply don't want to be clear about what the specific dispute was in this area beyond the uselessly generic "India and China differed on where the McMahon Line was in this area." Erik-the-red (talk) 23:04, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

"Sorry, no" meaning that is not what the sources say and that is not Wikipedia is supposed to say. You are doing your own WP:OR to decide the content and violating the sources and WP:NPOV. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:46, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Actually, that is what the source of your own choosing says. It's on page 111:

During the officials' talks the Chinese had also been told of the Indian view on correcting a map-drawn line; that is, the need to correlate it with the actual features on the ground. If a feature such as the Thagla Ridge had not been explored when the map was issued, and if the map-drawn boundary was supposed to be set by the watershed ridge, then the line lay on the watershed ridge despite the error on the map.

There is no substantive difference between that and what is currently written in the last paragraph of the "Location and background" section: the Indian view is that while the McMahon Line is actually south of the Thagla Ridge, the Line is "supposed to be" at the Ridge. You have once again demonstrated that you are discussing in very bad faith, with your repeated acts of dishonesty, hypocrisy, and gaslighting.

But just like before, pointing out your repeated acts of dishonesty, hypocrisy, and gaslighting does not get us any further to a resolution. As documented in the Henderson Brooks-Bhagat report, Dhola Post was supposed to be established south of the actual McMahon Line. It was mistakenly established north of the actual McMahon Line. If you would like to state in the introduction that Dhola Post was "set up" north of the McMahon Line but south of the Thagla Ridge, that is factually correct and fine by me. Erik-the-red (talk) 00:21, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Erik-the-red, I renew my offer to take this to WP:DRN. Please avoid casting WP:aspersions, and work with me to resolve the content dispute. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:41, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: I repeat what I wrote to you on 19 June 2020: pointing out your repeated acts of dishonesty, hypocrisy, and gaslighting does not get us any further to a resolution. As documented in the Henderson Brooks-Bhagat report, Dhola Post was supposed to be established south of the actual McMahon Line. It was mistakenly established north of the actual McMahon Line. If you would like to state in the introduction that Dhola Post was "set up" north of the McMahon Line but south of the Thagla Ridge, that is factually correct and fine by me.Erik-the-red (talk) 13:44, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Sources

• Hoffmann, Steven A. (1990), India and the China Crisis, University of California Press, ISBN 978-0-520-06537-6