Talk:Gmina

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Gmina v. commune

I think I detect a glimmer of a consensus that we prefer to use gmina (and Gmina Xyz) rather than commune and Xyz Commune. I've re-edited this page (and some others) on this basis. Kotniski 17:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

if that's the case why does the first line give municipality as an equivalent? It would be useful to explain in the article why municipality or commune are not adequate translations. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 15:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Why not use adequate existing English-language equivalents? Nihil novi (talk) 19:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also against the use of gmina in English. I always translate it as commune, which is easily understandable to foreigners.Sylwia Ufnalska (talk) 07:29, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Proposals

I've made a list of proposals about Gmina article names and categories. See Category talk:Gminas of Poland. --Kotniski 19:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Shared mayor

Some rural gminas have their seat in a town which is outside the gmina's division. For example, the rural Gmina Augustów is administered from the town of Augustów, but does not include the town, as Augustów is an urban type gmina in its own right.

That's clear. This article could perhaps give a bit more information about what such pairs can and cannot share. The town hall building, I suppose. A website, so to see. The coat of arms, may be. Twin towns? Or even the mayor? Fransvannes (talk) 09:40, 3 October 2011 (UTC) For instance: Gmina Łobez versus Łobez[reply]

Gmina v. municipality

Related to the above section "Gmina v. commune", I wonder why the municipalities of Poland do not use English names. The voivodeship and county articles all use English titles and are located at X Voidvodship (e.g. województwo lubelskie becomes Lublin Voivodeship) and X County (e.g. powiat lubelski becomes Lublin County). So if a gmina is a municipality, the analogous transformation would turn Gmina Annopol into Annopol Municipality. This is done for other countries too:

Country	local name	Wikipedia article
Bulgaria	Община Аксаково	Aksakovo Municipality
Denmark	Aalborg Kommune	Aalborg Municipality
Latvia	Aglonas novads	Aglona Municipality
Lithuania	Kalvarijos savivaldybė	Kalvarija municipality
Macedonia	Општина Богданци	Bogdanci Municipality
Montenegro	Opština Andrijevica	Andrijevica Municipality
Slovenia	Občina Bled	Municipality of Bled
Sweden	Ale kommun	Ale Municipality

JelgavaLV (talk) 06:37, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, with one reservation:

"A municipality is usually an urban administrative division..."

Polish "gminas", on the other hand, are legally of 3 types:

1. urban gmina;

2. rural gmina;

3. urban-rural gmina.

A "rural municipality" seems a contradiction in terms.

On the other hand, the word "commune" could be used as an English equivalent for the Polish "gmina". A "commune" can be urban or rural — or "urban-rural".

Two other considerations also favor "commune":

Derivation: the word "gmina" derives from the German word "Gemeinde", meaning "community" — a word that is cognate with "commune".

Convenience: 2 syllables vs. 6.

In any case, an English expression would be preferable to the English Wikipedia's current use of "gmina". (The English Wikipedia already uses the English term "county" for the Polish "powiat".)

Nihil novi (talk) 09:11, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also against the use of gmina in English. I always translate it as commune.Sylwia Ufnalska (talk) 07:28, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is probably one of those "old world" versus "new world" dilemas. The municipality is the word to use, because the municipality can exist even without a single resident, as shown here: "No town, no people but Jumbo's now a "resort municipality"". The "gmina" idea comes from the Polish traditional concept of pre-industrial village, where the so-called peasants used to live in past centuries. In English, it is called the "one-horse town", not "a one-horse village" (maybe a one-ski lift village?). I would definitely support renaming the Gminas into Municipalities in Poland or perhaps Municipality (Poland), in line with most other countries, if it ever went through... I would however still keep Gminas in mainspace particularly in the context of past centuries, with a redirect if necessary. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 16:11, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that Wikipedia uses wrong names of communes. For example correct name is Wólka, not Gmina Wólka – word “gmina” is not part of communes’ names (as well as word “miasto” [town, city] is not part of names of towns in Poland). These wrong names are used in Polish Wikipedia as well. So, correct titles of articles should be in form “Wólka (commune)”.

You're correct about one thing... The word "miasto" in never a part of the official name of the city in Poland; however, the noun "Gmina" by all means is a part of the official name. — Gmina Wólka is the official name of the municipality per both its own homepage and the government records. So, the full rendering of the name in English would have to remain Gmina Wólka (as municipality), or Gmina Wólka (as commune). — Going back to what I proposed, this is exactly where the word "Gmina" would have to be retained in mainspace as both the title and the opening phrase of each entry, followed by "... is a rural municipality (administrative district) in Lublin County..." Poeticbent talk 10:46, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but in Poland official names of communes are only names listed in Dziennik Ustaw (Official Gazette). You can read about it in [1]. Local web sites in Poland (sometimes government web sites too) are full of mistakes. Please, check official sources and registers – word “gmina” is not part of name of any commune in Poland. Aotearoa (talk) 15:11, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the link to the Toponymic Guidelines of Poland (for Map Editors and Other Users) in Polish and English, published by the Head Office of Geodesy and Cartography, Warsaw 2010. I searched that PDF document for "Wólka" (111 pages) and found nothing of course. There's a section called "Communes" with three paragraphs. There is a list of counties also (powiaty) in Polish followed by names of town/city only, in the so-called English language column. Anyhow, the source in not definitive. It is not helpful with regard to what we should and should not do. I have nothing else to add to that. Poeticbent talk 17:32, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In this publication you can read about low according to which communes’ names are established (page 55) and about communes names (p. 79). All names of communes you can find here (list published by Head Office of Geodesy and Cartography), and here (lis of Central Statistical Office), and in the act of Council of the Ministers, as well as act on name change of four communes act on name change of four communes (§ 4): [“Z dniem 1 stycznia 2004 r. zmienia się nazwy i siedziby władz następujących gmin: 1) w województwie lubelskim, w powiecie opolskim – gminy Józefów z siedzibą władz w Józefowie na Józefów nad Wisłą z siedzibą władz w Józefowie nad Wisłą...” = “Since 1 of January 2004 the names as well as names of seats of following communes are changed: 1) in Lubelskie Voivodship in Opolski County – the commune of Józefów with seat in Józefów to Józefów nad Wisłą with seat in Józefów nad Wisłą...”]. Aotearoa (talk) 18:43, 5 February 2013 (UTC) PS. According to your links. In the second one the name of commune is clearly listed (Gmina: Wólka). Names such “Urząd Gminy Wólka” are names of commune office not the commune itself (similarly in towns we have names of such offices as Urząd Miasta Milanówek).[reply]

Cleary information about gminas names with full list of gminas names from a website of the Commission on Standardization of Geographical Names Outside the Republic of Poland. Aotearoa (talk) 09:11, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Auxillary units

I want to make sure I understand something. When you have an urban-rural gmina such as Gmina Suchowola, and you see maps on here showing divisions within the gmina - I assumed in this case the internal boundaries are showing the town of Suchowola in relations to the gmina boundaries - are these boundaries being shown the boundaries for the formal auxillary unit or just a statistical visualization of the extent of the town? More simply put, are we seeing the auxillary unit of Suchowola town within Gmina Suchowola? --Criticalthinker (talk) 08:45, 7 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Title not English

Why is the title not given in English, e.g. Municipalities of Poland? 78.54.39.147 (talk) 11:45, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So, thanks to user:TerraCyprus in agreement with above discussion and thus the will of the majority and in agreement with sources it was English for a short time. But user:No such user reverted the move and on top edited the article [2] with the absolutely inappropriate summary "Rv controversial move per WP:BRD" to a non-English form, removing helpful external link and restoring nonsensical mixed use of gminas/gminy. It was absolutely inappropriate since the edit didn't "Rv controversial move per WP:BRD". 77.191.251.111 (talk) 06:51, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Page title

@TerraCyprus: I reverted your move of the article whose nomenclature affects thousands of other categories and articles. This should have been discussed via WP:RM, with participants of WP:POLAND properly notified.

I'm not against this move on the merits (in fact, I slightly favor the move), but you cannot just assert it's "uncontroversial" based on single source. And Anthony Appleyard, you should really know better. No such user (talk) 20:57, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User:No such user, maybe you should know better. Read WP:BRD and WP:POINT and the above discussions. And review your assertion "affects thousands of other categories and articles". 77.191.251.111 (talk) 06:52, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See Also