Talk:Greater Albania

Article gets even more pov

Seems the lead has became more pov after the recent edits, especially this: [[1]]...The concept of Greater Albania was coined by Benito Mussolini, when Fascist Italy reunited the Albanian inhabited territories, but the term itself is actually never used by the Albanians, and has been kept alive in recent years by Serbian nationanlist circles in order to justify a Greater Serbia. is typical wp:pov and obviously against wp:lead.Alexikoua (talk) 20:18, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Please read Robert Elsie and you will find those words there. --Sulmues ^(talk) 20:34, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

This [2] is even worse. "...and managed by Albanians". The irony is also delightful. Here we have Albanian editors who go out there and buy books for the sole purpose of trying to cram as many "Notable People" in places like Preveza to prove that it was Albanian, Albanian, and by the way, Albanian, and here we have the same editors trying to hedge "Greater Albania" as much as possible in a million different ways ("it was coined by Mussolini", "albanians never use the term", "Serbian propaganda", and it goes on). The lead has become a dreadful exercise in weasel-wording. Athenean (talk) 20:28, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Guys the League of Prizren has NOTHING to do with the concept of Greater Albania. If you insist with keeping League of Prizren here, that's what you're going to get. We have to get the League of Prizren out. --Sulmues ^(talk) 20:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC) And made some wording improvements. --Sulmues ^(talk) 20:38, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Better idea: Why don't you put the whole article up for deletion at AfD, since after all "Greater Albania" is nothing more than a figment of the Serbian imagination? Athenean (talk) 20:39, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I proposed it a while ago and I think you rejected the idea. I don't think it's going to go through, because I'd get all the Greeks and the Serbs together voting Keep. --Sulmues ^(talk) 20:41, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Rofl, I was actually being sarcastic. Anyway, the lead is simply terrible. There is so much hedging and weasel wording and poor English that is hopelessly messed up. Since discussion also appears quite hopeless, I will consider other dispute resolution methods. Athenean (talk) 20:45, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Saying that "Greater X" term, is never used by X citizens is really a weird claim. The way it is written on lead is completely misleading for the reader.Alexikoua (talk) 20:43, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree, but it wasn't me to start this article. I would rather move the article to "Ethnic Albania" and we can discuss this option. The concept has started as such by Mussolini in 1941, whereas the areas included within League of Prizren were much bigger and have nothing to do with it. --Sulmues ^(talk) 20:46, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Nope the English title is 'Greater Albania', apart from being bad translation from Albanian to English, 'Ethnic Albania' is also pov by the way.Alexikoua (talk) 20:51, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

The article Ethnic Albania existed and was eventually merged into Greater Albania by this edit. It is a different concept and I personally tend to have two articles. There was no consensus for such a move, but it was done back in 2007 by User:ColdFusion650. --Sulmues ^(talk) 20:58, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

"Ethnic", "Greater", whatever, it's the same thing. It's a concept to unite all Albanian lands into one entity, and this hasn't changed since the days of the League of Prizren, nor was this concept "invented" by Mussolini. Every Balkan nationality has similar concepts, I don't see what's so frightful or shameful about it. After all, you don't see Greek editors writing hysterically in Megali Idea that it is a Turkish concept invented to make Greeks look bad. Athenean (talk) 20:53, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

There is big difference the Megali Idea probably surpassed itself, whereas the Greater Albania was never realized. Of course the editors will have different feelings. Now you say that Megali Idea is a Turkish concept, whereas Greater Albania is Albanian? How come that Megali Idea, a Turkish idea realized in Greek lands, whereas Greater Albania, an "Albanian" concept never realized?--Sulmues ^(talk) 20:58, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

In addition: Greater Albania is completely different from Ethnic Albania. Greater Albania doesn't take into consideration the ethnicity of the populations included in the area, whereas Ethnic Albania starts with the idea of including all the ethnic Albanians. It is blatantly different. --Sulmues ^(talk) 21:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

"Megali Idea, a Turkish idea realized in Greek lands"? Man, I don't think you have any idea what we're talking about here. Your last point is so completely devoid of sense and meaning, that I am ending discussion here and will seek outside opinions. Athenean (talk) 21:23, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Feel free, but know that your sarcasm is not appreciated. --Sulmues ^(talk) 21:25, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not being sarcastic. You just don't (or can't) understand a single word I'm saying. Athenean (talk) 21:29, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, just make up your mind about your sarcasm. This contradicts this. --Sulmues ^(talk) 21:53, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I meant my last point. But you really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when you say Megali Idea was a Turkish concept. None whatsoever. Athenean (talk) 21:56, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I must have misread this edit, which seemed very strange to me too. Anyways, I think that we have to have two articles Ethnic Albania and Greater Albania, because there are no sources to state that the Albanian nationalists want "Greater Albania". The sources we have are for Albanian nationalists calling for Ethnic Albania, an article, which now doesn't exist and just redirects here. --Sulmues ^(talk) 22:01, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

athenean...sulmues doesnt seem to understand half of what you write you wrote 'you don't see Greek editors writing hysterically in Megali Idea that it is a Turkish concept invented to make Greeks look bad' and he understood that you meant that 'the MI WAS a turkish concept invented to make greeks look bad'...87.202.23.90 (talk) 02:00, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

BTW as i said in a section above im still not sure about the map that shows '20-50% albanian' in certain parts of south albania..it seems too low (and i have no idea about the albanian presence in certain areas of fyrom so ill let others express themselves here)...do we have any specific info?87.202.23.90 (talk) 02:04, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Reverted this problematic edit of Alexikoua. Please read the source and don't make any edits that are outside of what the source says, otherwise we are in OR territory. @IP editor: Please do not break wp:npa: I already told Athenean that I had not understood his comment on Megali Idea. --Sulmues ^(talk) 17:16, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

One more thing. Since Athenean brought the case to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Geopolitical_ethnic_and_religious_conflicts#Greater_Albania, I invite everybody that the current version [3], which is the same as the one right before he brought it to AN, be kept. --Sulmues ^(talk) 17:18, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I spotted this on the ethnic conflict board while perusing the Northern Ireland debate above it. FWIW, I think the insistence on saying that "Albanians rarely use the term" etc - while perhaps interesting as a matter of translation and linguistics - is kind of missing the point, and also confuses the concept itself and what it might be called locally, with how popular it might or might not be with Albanians. The term "Greater xx" is the phrase most often used by third party English language sources to describe the various irredentist aspirations of nation xx. It is used in respect of Albania just as it is in respect of Serbia, Croatia etc. The idea that either the concept or the precise term used to describe it in respect of Albania was simply invented by rival (Serbian) nationalists or Mussolini is a little odd. As a starting point for evidence against that, quick Google searches will reveal all sorts of books and media sources using the term regularly.

The point beyond that is that the "Greater xx" term can cover all sorts of aspirations - eg a claim on areas where there is an ethnic Albanian/Serbian/Croation majority today, and/or those areas that were historically part of some old empire etc. These differences can be explained in the article, rather than by having an "Ethnic Albania" fork. Equally, in some cases there is greater political support for the concept of an expanded nation than there is in others. It may well be the case that in Albania and among Albanians, the Greater Albania idea in its various guises is not popular. That too can be explained in the article. But it does not mean that the term/concept does not exist, or that its existence is some sort of propaganda device that needs to be exposed.

As for the Robert Elsie quote that's being put in the lead, yes it is from a seemingly decent source (I don't know much about him), but it remains simply the opinion/comment of one writer, which is being cherry-picked, unattributed, for fairly clear POV purposes as if it were fact, and the only fact. I'm not sure the lead should be using one quote to make such a definitive statement in the narrative voice of the article from the outset, particularly the second part of it. N-HH talk/edits 19:03, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Good points, and thanks for chiming in. The problem here is that some editors simply cannot see things outside their national perspective. While the term "Greater Albania" may have very specific connotations for Albanians, this article is simply about the general irredentist concept as treated in the English literature. Elsie's sentence can be moved to a separate section, where the issue about how Albanians perceive the term Greater Albania can be discussed. But it has no place in the lead. Similarly, the territories claimed on behalf of Greater Albania should be mentioned in the lead. Athenean (talk) 19:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I have no problems moving Elsie below. Good points. About the territories claimed on behalf of Greater Albania in the lead: that simply is far fetched, because that's where you'll encounter the Ethnic Albania issue: You gotta find the maps that the Albanian nationalists will bring. In addition, what about the League of Prizren? --Sulmues ^(talk) 19:25, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Are you serious? There is nothing far fetched about discussing which territories are claimed on behalf of Greater Albania, it is essential to helping our readers get a quick grasp of the subject (per WP:LEDE). Every map put out by Albanian irredentists shows Kosovo, all of Epirus, about half of the Republic of Macedonia, and a good chunk of Montenegro and Serbia (Sandjak). Just look up "Greater Albania" in Google Images or the Commons. In fact, most of the proposals for greater Albania follow the template set by the League of Prizren, which was the inception of the idea of uniting all "Albanian" lands. Athenean (talk) 19:36, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Exactly my point. Those maps come from Serbianna.com [4] and kosovo.net [5], Belgrade agencies [6], and in general the ultra-nationalistic Serbian sites. Find me Albanian nationalistic sites, 'cause I have never seen them. [7]. --Sulmues ^(talk) 20:00, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Right, you have never seen Albanian ultranationalist sites, therefore, they must not exist. All figments of the Serbian and Greek imaginations. For starters then, you might want to check out www.illyrians.org, one of my favorites. Note the banner on top. What does it say? Btw, the maps you claim are from "Serbian ultranationalist sites" are in Albanian, so they prboably got them from places like illyrians.com. At least one of them they took from the Commons (and antiwar.com is hardly a "Belgrade agency"). Now, on a more serious note, there are dozens upon dozens on sources on Greater Albania out there, and it can be very easily sourced which lands are claimed on behalf of Greater Albania [8]. Btw, I don't understand why you're so opposed to this. All "Greater X" articles include a brief description of the territories claimed, e.g. Greater Serbia and Megali Idea. I don't see why Greater Albania should be any different. It's just basic encyclopedism. Athenean (talk) 21:28, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not opposing placing the territories claimed. I just think that:

1. The League of Prizren link to Greater Albania should be handled with care, if it really needs to be presented in the article: I wouldn't at all, personally, because Albania didn't exist back then.
2. The concept of Greater Albania was cristallized during Albania under Italy. --Sulmues ^(talk) 18:41, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Greater Albania was only ever realized under Italy. But the concept of an Albanian-ruled entity that would include Albania, Kosovo, Chameria, and others places, was first conceived by the League of Prizren. That is what this article is about, not the term "Greater Albania" in the narrow sense. Athenean (talk) 18:47, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes but I really disagree that the League of Prizren concept has anything to do with Greater Albania. This came after Albania's borders were unjustly decided in London in 1913.--Sulmues ^(talk) 20:22, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Regarding Elsie's sentence, the part about Mussolini is not really necessary, since there is a whole section (WW 2), discussing the use of "Greater Albania" by the Italians. The part about its uses in Serbian nationalism can go in the "Political Uses" section. Athenean (talk) 18:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Fine with me, but a mention of that should be done in the lede. --Sulmues ^(talk) 20:22, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, now that we have reached an agreement on the 1st paragraph, to work on the 2nd paragraph. The only problem I see is grammatical which I can easily fix by simply removing "and to be put". Athenean (talk) 19:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

 Done [9]. --Sulmues ^(talk) 20:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Now that the issue has finally been resolved, the tags should be removed as well. They're kind old (2007, 2008) and there is no real discussion about them anymore. Athenean (talk) 21:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Map

Undid this map removal [10], removed on spurious grounds. The map is not POV, it is sourced to Le Monde Diplomatique, a very reliable source. Athenean (talk) 07:30, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I've read through all past discussions about maps etc. and it seems that this isn't Le Monde and the creator of the map is allegedly citing Rexhep Qosja, who would never write anything similar to what the map proposes. Btw this is a content dispute so I'll add back the POV template. Per wp:fringe since no one else even proposes that the map has to go.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 07:35, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

This map is one of many, presented by several sources og high credibility. Just happened to see lately this[[11]]. (@Zjarri: you don't have to explain again how aware you are about all the past 2-years discussions in wikipedia).Alexikoua (talk) 08:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not explaining myself Alexikoua and bring a page link not list one. Btw because as I said you have already discussed this when Athenean recycles the use of that argument it is disruptive per WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT(that's the reason of my past discussions reference)--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 08:47, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)That link btw shows Himarë as a region with no Greeks, also Berat County with no Greeks and also doesn't refer to whether the minority in all these lands is a majority--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 08:55, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Lede map

I have replaced the map in the lede, which showed the distribution of ethnic Albanians in neighboring countries, with an actual map of greater Albania. This is standard practice in other "Greater X" articles, e.g. Greater Serbia, Greater Croatia, etc. Since the lede describes which territories are claimed on behalf of GA, a map of GA is the most appropriate. The distribution map can go in the body of the article, or in other articles (when it is ready; it is currently the subject of a dispute in the commons), but not really in the lede here. Athenean (talk) 01:32, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Map of greater Albania (not accurate)

Why does the map include the island of Corfu where Albanians make for about 2% or less of the local population? Nor it is historically associated with the Albanian people. On what criteria the island and the part of the continental Greece is included ? Adrian (talk) 06:33, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

"Unknown" number

Is this [12] some kind of joke? The number of Albanians in Greece is not "unknown", otherwise please enter "unknown" in the infobox of Albanians. Estimates exist, though they all regard post-1991 migrants, which have absolutely nothing to do with greater albania. It's as if some people are trying to imply that the large number of such migrants is a justification for Greater Albania. Nonsense. Athenean (talk) 18:32, 20 November 2010 (UTC)