Talk:History of Silesia

To antypolish POVers and other Vandals

I live in the Upper Silesia and I cannot accept these nonsense you are trying to pull out here. Tell me why are you deleting the map of the medieval Poland which Silesia was part of? Why are you deleting the word Poland from the headings? Is not Silesia now part of Poland? Was it not part of it in the medieval? Why are you not deleting the names of other countries like Germany, Prussia, Austria? Your attitude is a typical antypolish POV and any next Vandalism of this sort will be reported to the Wikiadmin. With Regards 77.253.71.235 (talk) 18:18, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

The paragraph dealed with the early history of Silesia and was originally called "Middle Ages". During that time Silesia or parts of Silesia were part of Great Moravia, Bohemia, Poland, part of Bohemia again, temporarily independent, part of Poland again and then splitted into independent duchies. All in merely 200 years. The term "Middle Ages" was broad enough to include all these facts. By changing the heading to "Kingdom of Poland" large parts of the early history of the region aren't covered anymore. Should we consider these edits anticzech? Karasek (talk) 19:02, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

This problem has been solved by adding a new part. Now Early Middle Ages are talking about a very enigmatic (very little historical sources exist from those times) period of the Great Moravia and its succesor: the early Czech state. There is even a map showing the great Moravia so there are no more anticzech edits. :) Nevertheless you were adding to the heading -Early Middle Ages - Silesia in the Kingdom of Poland the phrase "a collection of independent duchies" which is described in the next section called... "Silesian duchies". What that has to do with carefull and antyPOVish edits? What is more the editor LUCPOL, who by the way was banned on the polwiki, reverts all the edits not even trying to explain why. He have actually just deleted the map of middle age Poland as well as the word "Poland" from the article headings. He is trying to give English readers the wrong impression. He even deleted the word Poland from the post WWII section. Tell me where does Silesia lay since 1945? Of course other country names such as Prussia, Austria, Bohemia and Germany are no problem to him, so tell me are those edits neutral and nonPOVish? Regards 77.253.66.8 (talk) 19:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Mr IP 77.253.... - you be blocked on pl.Wikipedia (user). Your is sockpuppet. It is not proper to discuss with nationalistą from Poland. PS. Moreover Silesia now (after 1945) lies in Poland, Czech Republic and Germany, not only Poland. Your edition is manipulations, lie and vandalism. Twoje edycje będą dalej cofane. LUCPOL (talk) 20:52, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I will not tolerate personal ataks. I will just say that any unsourced edits that are an obvious antipolish and therefore antisilesian POV will be reverted. What is more every new personal atack will be reported to a Wikiadmin. By the way no part of the historical Silesia region is part of modern Germany. If you are refering to the part of Lower Lusatia that was only administratively connected to a Prussian province of Silesia in 1815 than you dont konow anything about how historical regions form. Lusatia is Lusatia and Silesia is Silesia and those are separate historical regions. The fact that they were connected by the authorities of some state does not change the historical borders of both regions. If you are treating Upper Lusatia as part of Silesia becouse it was connected to the Silesia administrative province than as well you would have to agree that Częstochowa is also part of Silesia becouse it is now a part of the Silesian Voivodeship. 77.253.66.8 (talk) 21:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.253.64.169 (talk)

Częstochowa nie jest częścią Śląska bo się nie ześląskowiła. Inaczej jest z tym kawałkiem dawnych Łużyc. Tam wciąż, nawet teraz jest śląska tożsamość. Poza tym ty nie pisz że jesteś z Górnego Śląska bo to nic nie znaczy. Jesteś polakiem a nie Ślązakiem. Widziałem dzisiaj na ulicy murzyna i on jest mi bliski jak wy - polacy. Wy tylko tu żyjecie, nic więcej. Ten murzyn też może powiedzieć (jak ty) że tu mieszka - ale to nic nie znaczy. Więc nie pisz więcej takich bzdetów. Pozdrawiam. LUCPOL (talk) 21:34, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

The user LUCPOL does not anwser in English. So his post does not have to be anwsered. In order to carry on a conversation on enwiki please put your posts in English so that everyone could understand you. Especially Wikiadmins. 77.253.64.169 (talk) 21:40, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Dear IP. Please register. Thank you, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:13, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Section titles

Please refer to WP:HEAD. It is better to have shorter than longer section headings, and in general not repeat the article title in the section heading. So for example, in an article on Silesia, you would not expect to find "Silesia" in any of the section titles. So for example, in the section about Silesia in WWII, it is sufficient to use the title "World War II", and it is patently understood that since this is the article on Silesia, that it refers only to Silesia in World War II, and is not a general paragraph about WWII, or Pearl Harbor, or Iwo Jima... Ask yourself, "Within the subject of history of Silesia, what sections are needed to allow navigation within the article to all the parts of the history of Silesia?" That's all that section headings are. They are not titles of a book, and are always referring to a subsection of the article. Apteva (talk) 02:40, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Is it or isn't it (part of Poland)

Reviewing maps from Magosci's Historical Atlas of Central Europe:

• ca 1050, Silesia split between Poland and the Holy Roman Empire, note, under Bolesłow I (992-1018), the furthest extent of Poland pretty much included all of Silesia
• 1250, Silesia subdivided (not noted as such itself) into the northern tip of Bohemia and mainly Legnica and Wrocław in Poland
• 13th-14th century, part of Bohemia, Moravia; by 1370 the south-western border of Poland ran about 50 km north-east of the Oder, roughly parallel; majority of Silesia acquired by Bohemia-Moravia in 1327 and 1335, with a small territory including Świdnica in 1392.
• Silesia (as well as Lusatia to the north-west) fell under the farthest extent of Hungary during the reign of Matyas Corvinus (1458-90)
• By 1480, however, Silesia was part of the Holy Roman Empire
  • Interestingly, with reference to Hungary and the Holy Roman Empire above, in 1450, Silesia fell under Poland ecclesiastically (jurisdictions of the Catholic church)
• 1570, Silesia part of Habsburg lands, Holy Roman Empire
• Haven't read through the text for an exact date, but by late 18th century, part of Prussia

Hope this helps. —PētersV (talk) 23:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• P.S. Silesians date to what became Silesia to (at least) the 7th/8th century AD and the initial expansion of the Slav homeland. —PētersV (talk) 06:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

To clear things up:

• the situation around 1050 was only temporary. There were unrests in Silesia, Bohemia (part of the HRE) captured it for approximately 20 years, Silesia was also temporary independent for some time and afterwards the bigger part fell back to Poland. Until 1137 there were frequent battles between both countries.
• around 1250 Silesia was independent, but the rulers tried to acquire the Polish crown and owned Polish territory at times.
• Silesia was already part of the Holy Roman Empire when the Bohemian crown acquired the Silesian duchies.
• Ecclesiastically Silesia was part of the archbishopric Gniezno from 1000 to 1821.Karasek (talk) 07:42, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Correct, Gniezno was the archdiocesan see for Poland, established in 1000. —PētersV (talk) 18:02, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

There is still some "mishmash" in the names of the headings.

• First of all Silesia became part of the HRE as soon as it became a permanent part of Bohemia, and that is in the first half of the XIV century.
• The second thing is that it is not clear to me why the time when Matthias Corvinus took control is regarded as the begining of a period in which Silesia became the part of the HRE? As I stated it was earlier. This part schould be connected to the "Bohemia" paragraph which schould be titled "Silesia in Bohemia and therefore in the Holy Roman Empire"
• The next paragraph schould start in 1526 and be titled "Silesia in the Habsburg Monarchy"
• The next thing is that in the 1740 not all of Silesia was annexed by Prussia. A part of it remained as part of Bohemia and then Empire of Austria, Czehoslovakia and the Czech republic. This fact is mentioned in the last heading (Silesia after WWII) but is ommited in the heading about Prussian conquest. So this paragraph schould be titelled "Prussian conquest of most of the Silesia" or "Silesia divided between The Habsburg Monarcy and the Kingdoom of Prussia"
• The last thing is the title of the last section. In 1945 Poland acquired most of the prewar Prussian/German Province of Silesia and the whole of the Silesia historical region that wasn't before the WWII part of Poland or Czehoslovakia. Wikipedian Lucpol thinks that the change of administrative borders within the Kingdoom of Prussia that was made after the congress of Vienna in 1815 changed also the borders of historical regions that were developed in the Medieval. The historical Silesia ends even a bit closer than the modern Polish western border. The territories West of it are part of the historical region of Loverer Lusitia which were taken from Saxony in 1815 and administratively connected to the Prussian Silsian province. It is worth mentioning that this region (Lusitia) is also inhabited by a different to Polish and German Sorb community which never identified itself with Silesia but with other Sorbs that remained in Saxony after 1815. What is more this section of the article does not mention even in one word about the so called "German Silesia after WWII" or even about the Czech part of the Upper Silesia. There is only information about the postwar Polish Silesia so the heading is misleading. In my opinion it schould be like this: "Prewar historical German Silesia again in Poland" or, if some info about the so called "German Silesia after WWII" will appear it schould look: "Prewar German Silesia east from the Neisse river again in Poland"

Cheers 82.143.161.131 (talk) 12:22, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I should preface by saying I have no allegiance in any direction. I think there's far too much detail in the introduction trying to account for everything and then it multiplies throughout the article. The introduction should be something simple more along the lines of (and apologies for doing of the top of my head)... "Silesia is a historical region in central Europe named for the Silesians (Slavic tribes) which first settled there in the 7th to 8th century AD. It roughly encompases... running in parallel to the Oder River... First overrun by the Goths in XYZ (400's?), then settled by the Silesians, Silesia has fallen under the domains of... the various sovereignties... and with it, the cultural influences and influxes of... Poles, Hungarians, Germans, etc. Finally something about Silesian identity, but remembering this is the history of the territory."

Just a thought. —PētersV (talk) 18:42, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

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Slesie Slesien Schlesien, Silesia named for Silinger, Germanic tribe

Vecrumba writes: "Silesia is a historical region in central Europe named for the Silesians (Slavic tribes) which first settled there in the 7th to 8th century AD.

Somewhere else Vecrumba write: Silesia ...after all, it's named after the Silesians, the Slav tribe that settled in that area.-

Correction: Silesia (Slesia=Schlesien) is named for the Silinger a Vandalic, of the Germanic tribes, who lived in Germania Slavs started moving into Germania after the 6th century and Silesia was conquered by the first duke of the Polans, Mieszko I around 1000 AD, but shortly after lost again. Polish name is Slask. An Observer

See tomb of: Boleslaus Dux Slesie Slesien- Schlesien, Silesia not of Slask

An Observer (71.137.197.97 (talk) 03:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC))

See a posting at WP:Ethnic and cultural conflicts noticeboard

Hoping to get more contributions to this Talk page, I opened a listing at WP:CCN#History of Silesia. All are welcome to comment there. Thanks also to User:Vecrumba (PētersV) for adding his analysis just above. EdJohnston (talk) 03:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)