Talk:Jewish ghettos in Europe: Difference between revisions

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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Aberkey (article contribs). This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 August 2018 and 4 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): James805 (article contribs).

'Ghettos' in modern London?

umm, I would really challenge the definition of the 'ghettos' in London. These are areas where Jews have traditionally lived, but entirely under their own volition. English Jewry have had a turbulent history, but no-one forces or ever forced them to live in Stamford Hill. Perhaps there was a ghetto in the city of London? I don't know.

Jews used to be persecuted in England for long periods of their history. See History of the Jews in England for more details. Astronaut (talk) 18:47, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A ghetto is a place where a group is CONFINED by law, by custom or because of social pressures. To suggest that modern parts of Britain are in any way "Ghetti" (the correct plural) for Jews is a libel unless one wishes to claim that Knightsbridge, say, is a billionaire's ghetto, although it fails, by this article's definition, in that it has no wall around it. While most medieval Jewish quarters, especially in Germany, were on Church or monastic land as Jews were "wards" of the local Bishop and nominally closed to other inhabitant of other faiths they could be fairly called "Ghetti", however Old Jewery in London belonged neither to the Church nor to the King, but to the Jews. There was no restriction on gentiles living there or of Jews living elsewhere: in fact Jews had more rights to move around and settle in England than ordinary Englishmen until the restrictions of the late 13th Century.

The article is biased and unfactual.Gaptech (talk) 19:44, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:51, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Germany and the Holocaust

Germany organized the Holocaust in annexed areas of Poland and outside Germany. The current version of this article suggests that some occupied counties were responsible (the Netherlands, Poland) rather than Germany.Xx236 (talk) 08:38, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Focus on traditional ghettos, not Nazi ghettos

Nazi ghettos are an entirely different genocide-driven phenomenon, and the list of them really belongs on the other article. I think this article should focus on the ghetto as it existed in European Jewish history for hundreds of years before Jewish emancipation, and that died out long before the WWII and the Nazis.--Pharos (talk) 17:25, 16 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Planned Edit

In the coming weeks I plan to make a few changes to this article regarding the origins of the Jewish ghetto system in early modern Europe and the distinction between these types of ghettos and the Nazi Ghettos that were created in the 20th century. I plan to add a section focusing on the anti-Semitic policies of the papacy in the 16th century and the restrictions it imposed upon Jewish communities surrounding Jewish dress, property ownership and location of residence. This section will discuss the larger implications these restrictions had on the Jewish community as well as their role in the creation of Europe's tradition Jewish ghetto system. In this section I will be presenting information from Robert Bonfil's book titled Jewish Life in Renaissance Italy. Robert Bonfil is a professor of Jewish history at The Hebrew University in Jerusalem and an expert within his field. Secondarily, I would like to make some changes to the organization of this article, specifically to the list of Jewish ghettos in Europe by country. The current list presents examples of both early modern historic Jewish ghettos as well as 20th century Nazi ghettos. Considering that early modern ghettos had a very different purpose and origin than Nazi ghettos, it would be beneficial to re-organize the list to clearly differentiate between the two different ghetto systems. I plan to make one list of Jewish ghettos in Europe that originate in the early modern period before Jewish emancipation and a second list of Nazi ghettos established in the 20th century. This second list of Nazi ghettos might be more appropriately placed in a different article specifically titled "Nazi ghettos" however I do not plan on making this change at this time. If anyone has any suggestions or comments regarding my suggestions I invite you to please way in on this talk page or my talk page. Thank you. --James805 (talk) 21:11, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Holocaust in Poland

A recent well attended RM - Talk:The Holocaust in Poland/Archives/2019/July#Requested move 5 June 2019 concluded that The Holocaust in Poland should be at that title as a neutral descriptor. As background, there is a POV push in some circles - e.g. this Polish government site - to add "German-occupied"/"Nazi-occupied"/"occupied" to any phrase connecting Poland to the Holocaust. this change - which modified a subsection under the existing "Poland" subsection to "Holocaust" and which matched the target The Holocaust in Poland was reverted. There's no reason to have an "in Poland" under a section which is already "Poland". Using a different title in the see also - The Holocaust in occupied Poland is inconsistent with the chosen neutral title name - The Holocaust in Poland. Icewhiz (talk) 09:00, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The RM was about the title of a specific article. It did NOT, contrary to the false suggestion above, say anything about the use of the phrase "German occupied" when referring to... well, German occupied Poland during WW2, in other instances. As to this supposed "background", POV is a Wikipedia specific concept. Whether there are some "circles" (what? like a conspiracy or something?) who have some opinions or others is completely irrelevant.

Icewhiz, if you want to propose a general RfC to outright ban the use of the phrase "German occupied" when referencing Poland during WW2 everywhere on Wikipedia, then be my guest. Go ahead and put it on display for everyone to see and comment.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:15, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Volunteer Marek:- please provide a clear rationale for why you are circumventing the RM's consensus. We had a RM. Very clear consensus against "occupied Poland". Links to articles generally follow the title chosen for them. Why link to The Holocaust in occupied Poland as opposed to The Holocaust in Poland? If you can't provide a rationale for overriding the consensus at the target article - then - please self-revert - circumventing a clear consensus is WP:DISRUPTIVE, particularly given you haven't provided any rationale for your action (beyond disagreeing with said consensus). Furthermore - Why do we have to repeat "in Poland" in a subsection under "Poland"? This is a clear violation of MOS:NOBACKREF. Icewhiz (talk) 09:26, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am NOT "circumventing the RM's consensus". I did NOT move the article which the RM concerned to any name. Stop making stuff up, and especially stop making stuff up in order to falsely accuse me of being disruptive. What's disruptive is falsely pretending that an RM about a particular article title gives you a blank check to remove any mention of German occupation of Poland from wherever you feel like it. Why are you doing that anyway? Can YOU provide a rationale for a such a WP:TENDENTIOUS and ahistorical mass series of edits? If you want to start an RfC demanding that the phrase "German occupied" be banned across all of Wikipedia when referring to ... German occupied Poland, then go for it. I'd really like to see that.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:41, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide a rationale for violating MOS:NOBACKREF in the section title (no need to repeat "Poland" given header above is "Poland"), and for using "The Holocaust in occupied Poland" instead of The Holocaust in Poland - the consensus in the RM. If you are unable to provide a reason for breaking BACKREF and for using a different title than the one agreed upon in the RM (in a "see also" link) - please self revert. Icewhiz (talk) 10:00, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It’s rather indisputable that Poland was occupied by Nazi Germany during the Holocaust. What’s the problem with saying that? Wivescoals (talk) 15:36, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to Wikipedia, and thank you for making your forst edit here. One can say many things about Poland during the Holocaust - including that it was occupied. Stressing the occupation is redundant, and is aligned with a particular POV.Icewhiz (talk) 15:41, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 84: / Line 84: @@
 :::: Please provide a rationale for violating [[MOS:NOBACKREF]] in the section title (no need to repeat "Poland" given header above is "Poland"), and for using "The Holocaust in occupied Poland" instead of [[The Holocaust in Poland]] - the consensus in the RM. If you are unable to provide a reason for breaking BACKREF and for using a different title than the one agreed upon in the RM (in a "see also" link) - please self revert. [[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 10:00, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 It’s rather indisputable that Poland was occupied by Nazi Germany during the Holocaust.  What’s the problem with saying that? [[User:Wivescoals|Wivescoals]] ([[User talk:Wivescoals|talk]]) 15:36, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
+: Welcome to Wikipedia, and thank you for making your forst edit here. One can say many things about Poland during the Holocaust - including that it was occupied. Stressing the occupation is redundant, and is aligned with a particular POV.[[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 15:41, 2 August 2019 (UTC)