Talk:Kevin Folta

Role of Land Grant universities

I think it might be informative to add a couple quotes about the nature of Land Grant universities such as University of Florida with regard to the alleged conflict of interest. These articles explain how Dr. Folta's educational outreach program relates to their broader mission, and how such collaboration is a feature, not a bug:

There is a network of “Land Grant” colleges and Universities throughout the US that was first set up in the late 1800s through the Morrill Acts. Their purpose was to focus on agriculture, science, military science and engineering. They became important centers of applied research which has been of great benefit for the global food supply. These institutions have traditionally been part of a synergistic, public/private partnership for the discovery, testing and commercialization of innovations of value to the farming community. They also educate future farmers, the specialized scientists and engineers who become the employees of ag-related businesses, and the future faculty. [1]

[T]his is the way the land-grant university system is supposed to work. Part of our mission is to partner with others — be they corporations, nonprofits, or government agencies — to discover, test and commercialize inventions. It's also our mission to share science and innovation broadly with the public. [2]

Wurdeh (talk) 16:59, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

While I'm one of the first to admit many people fail to realize what role land-grant researchers are supposed to serve between the public and industry, I'm worried we might be getting into WP:COATRACK territory with this unless another source delves into that role a bit more directly on the subject of this article or the controversy. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:17, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Land-grant university exists. I linked the mention of it in the strawberry section, but there isn't much text to get the point across you seem to be implying. If another section needs it, I'm sure a link to that would be sufficient for the bulk of the information, possibly linking to a subsection if an appropriate one exists. Then it might be sufficient to add one, maybe two, sentences to the fact that he works at a land-grant university, and academic-industry-gov't-etc partnerships are appropriate and necessary.Nrjank (talk) 03:53, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

COI

I think we need to talk about the changes made rather than just reverting. Some are quite good, and there are WP:RS citations for a lot of the changes made. Jerod Lycett (talk) 22:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Like most COI editor's edits, this section was fundetmentally non neutral. IT was biased in favor of its subject with the addition of unreliable sources and giving undue weight to the view that he did nothing wrong. Winner 42 Talk to me! 22:37, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I see one SPS, and many many RS. Can you show RS that he did something wrong? He did go about editing in the wrong way, but he did add RS, and from what I can see, removed the NPOV. Jerod Lycett (talk) 22:42, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

In this case when an advocacy group is working on a smear campaign (or any nicer way to put it), we also need to be careful of undue weight for that point of view as well. That's especially the case given that this is a BLP. This is very similar in nature to Climategate, so while COI edits were made, I agree with Jerodlycett that a lot of them actually weren't too shabby as far as COI editors go. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Alright, I have gone through and removed most of the unreliable sources and misrepresented sources, and I'll continue to work on the section for a bit. Winner 42 Talk to me! 23:18, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

In edits you made removing content mentioning SPS, what are you seeing as a problem? The sources I've seen deleted here appear fine under WP:BLPSPS. I don't think everything should have just been deleted, but some of that content associated with them can be reworked. I'll take a stab at that in a bit. Just wanting to make sure you weren't deleting content based on the source alone. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:44, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

@Winner 42:This: Kroll, David (10 September 2015). "What The New York Times Missed On Kevin Folta And Monsanto's Cultivation Of Academic Scientists". Forbes. Retrieved 10 September 2015. doesn't appear to be SPS, but rather an op-ed for Forbes, or maybe not, as he seems to be a semi-regular columnist for them.

Considering the evidence very clearly shows this is just a smear campaign and little more, a lot of the edits having been made to this article concern me. Especially this edit by Winner 42, which implies to me they know nothing about Wikipedia or RS's and shouldn't be allowed to edit at all. Of course, that implication doesn't make much sense, since they've been editing for a long time and have written GAs and such. Which then only allows one other conclusion: they are editing in bad faith and trying to POV slant the article because of personal biases against the subject. Silverseren^C 23:50, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

COI allegations: wording.

According to an article in Nature, in August 2015, the investigation began to produce documents which indicated that he had not committed scientific misconduct, but revealed that he had close ties to Monsanto and other biotechnology interests and that he had received a unrestricted $25,000 grant from Monsanto.[5] Folta responded to this article by denying the article's claims that he had "close ties" to Monsanto.[8]

To me, this seems like bad style. The sentence is way too long, and the first part actually severely modulates the truth value of the last part. The last part, however, starts with a "but", which actually negates the first part. Without careful and close reading, it might not occur that this is what a blog article on Nature said, and that those statements might not (and to are not exactly) factual. Was the "grant" unrestricted? From what I read, it was actually tied to the outreach program. That's not unrestricted. Also, "close ties" doesn't seem like a word that should be used like that in an encyclopedia, but that might be only me.--2A02:8070:8883:CA00:F9D1:2926:E0D9:E757 (talk) 23:51, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

That's actually two sentences in the original article, and whoever wrote that phrasing dropped something which I added. Can I invite you to signup for an account? Jerod Lycett (talk) 00:02, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Nope. I spent way too much time on a non-English(hint:not a native speaker of en) wikipedia (including admin stuff) and essentially was driven out. I'm sure you've heard stories like this a plenty. I'll be gone sooner than later, and I'll not do any actual edits, sorry.

I just saw this article being discussed in a social network and this sentence immediately struck my eye. It's not only meandering, it's also reported speech. I'm not even sure what the purpose is. I don't feel informed reading it. Yes, there's that blog entry on Nature with its interpretations. But there's also actual source emails (caveat: cherry picked and out of context), as well as Folta's statements for further context. Can we un-entangle this, instead of trying to cram everything into one sentence or even paragraph? --2A02:8070:8883:CA00:F9D1:2926:E0D9:E757 (talk) 00:15, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Unrestricted grants have special meaning in ag research. As a professor, a company says you can do whatever you want with the money in exchange for doing a research trial, outreach program, etc. regardless of results (part of where unrestricted comes in). On the university side, the professor may dedicate that money to specific program of theirs (which is also why they money could be moved to another program as it was). Just a caution that unrestricted funding is a bit of a jargon term in this context. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:21, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Do we have wikilink for that version of unrestricted, I think it's quite important to include that. Jerod Lycett (talk) 00:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

That may be so, but you've got to explain this to readers, or not use that kind of jargon. "Unrestricted" is a common word most readers will understand literally. I suggest not using it, and instead just say what such a grant may be used for, and what it has been used for. Much clearer, no? --2A02:8070:8883:CA00:F9D1:2926:E0D9:E757 (talk) 00:30, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, that really needs to be better defined in the article. Most people will think unrestricted actually means bribe, when it really means non-influenced. Silverseren^C 00:32, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

That's part of the problem and play on words. I think it's as good as we can do for now, but I'll do some digging tomorrow on if we have sources we can use here that describe it. It's tough because professors almost never talk about the jargon at that level except to their account people, much less sources we'd use on Wikipedia. Maybe I'll pay a visit to our university accounting folks and pick their brains on any descriptive paper sources other universities might put out (especially where I might find them for Florida). Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:35, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

It is indeed much better now. Best of luck finding good sources for such specific jargon. However, as you pointed out, it seems to be a term only used by very few people. Consider Wikipedia:Technical and Wikipedia:Jargon --2A02:8070:8883:CA00:F9D1:2926:E0D9:E757 (talk) 00:57, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@IP, I just try to invite all IP editors to join, I'm sure you realize how IP editors get treated here. Jerod Lycett (talk) 00:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

POV disclosures

Off-topic per WP:FOC

Before anything breaks out into an edit war, anyone else care to join with me on this? This isn't a count, nor is it meant for consensus, just as a guide to others, so we can understand who may have emotions involved on what end. you mean Pro-Science? --2A02:8070:8883:CA00:F9D1:2926:E0D9:E757 (talk) 23:53, 13 September 2015 (UTC) Funny timing, what with my response below. SilverserenC 23:55, 13 September 2015 (UTC) And you're right on point with regards to work in an encyclopedia (I used to write a lot for wiki (not en), but the internal wars made me stop. Sigh.). Still, I'd actually be curious if someone assigns themselves to the middle category. --2A02:8070:8883:CA00:F9D1:2926:E0D9:E757 (talk) 23:59, 13 September 2015 (UTC) Pro-GMO Jerod Lycett (talk) Anti-GMO Pro-Science This is stupid and pointless. I support the scientific consensus on all subjects, including the safety of biotechnology and vaccines and the existence of anthropogenic climate change. That's all science and Wikipedia is meant to present science, not fringe nonsense as if it's true. SilverserenC 23:55, 13 September 2015 (UTC) I'm closing this as this is inappropriate for an article talk page. We are expected to check in any POV we have at login afterall. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Self published source " Between Scientists and Citizens"

The Blog "Between Scientists and Citizens" written by a certain Jean Goodwin, looks terribly tendentious, uses dramatic rhethoric (Folta "targeted by McCarthy-style attacks") and has climate change pieces on it making fun of James Hansen. Winner 42 had removed it stating in his editsummary why: Self published source. However, agroscience editor, which is what Kingofaces calls himself, re-introduced it with the misleading edit summary: "Restore sources with better attribution per WP:BLPSPS. If there's some wording that doesn't quite match up, happy to discuss on talk." but not discussing after a bold edit was reverted is NOT DISCUSSING. This is editwarring, even though King writes nonchalantly" happy to discuss". The source is an absolute no no for WP. --Wuerzele (talk) 10:33, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Rubbish. Wikipedia allows for statements by individuals to be sourced from their own self-published work, as this is. It would not be admissible as a statement of fact in respect of some contentious item, but as a source for a statement by Folta about the matter in question, it is entirely legitimate. That does not in any way prejudge the veracity of the statement, it is clearly his own words on his own site and the reader can conclude for xyrself whether to accept it in the context. Guy (Help!) 15:08, 14 September 2015 (UTC)