Talk:Kingsmill massacre

Recent Edits regarding justification for the massacre

This article is an essay in the justification of sectarian murder. Why has an article regarding the murder of people based upon their religion been turned into a monograph on republican allegations regarding other murders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aughrafin (talk • contribs)

Feel free to edit the article. Mooretwin (talk) 13:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I have edited the article, it quickly reverts to the original version, someone either has more time than I do, or is using a bot. I'm new to wikipedia, but not to Irish history, this article is a genuine disgrace. Aughrafin (talk) 13:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

It is also very badly written, even for a propaganda piece Aughrafin (talk) 14:00, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec)For a new editor you know terms used here like bot and vandalism strange. BigDunc 14:09, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Try reading these and then editing again - WP:NPOV and WP:V. Toodle pip!--Vintagekits (talk) 14:07, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm a new editor, not a new wikipedia user. Seriously, this is a very poor article, it is slanted, the links are extremely dodgy (since when was the Irish Daily Mail a newspaper of record?) Edits aimed at restoring balance are instantly reverted. I don't have time to engage in a editing war with political activists, but the fact remains, this article is a disgrace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aughrafin (talk • contribs) 14:15, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Well thanks for your input or lack there of! Toodle pip!--Vintagekits (talk) 14:17, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

So you claim that FAIR are a neutral source and the Irish Daily Mail isn't? BigDunc 14:19, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

"therof" is one word, not two. Whether you agree with them or not, FAIR represent the victims of massacres like Kingsmills, their site is an appropriate reference. The Irish Daily Mail is a down market tabloid, not a newspaper of record, using it to justify a point is like using the Sun or the Star, not appropriate. One of the other links is not to an original article, but to commentary upon it by 'Indymedia' a propaganda site. Aughrafin (talk) 14:27, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Bullshit FAIR are a group of sectarian bigots and are never neutral. The Daily Mail is a reputable newspaper. BigDunc 14:30, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

+1, -1.--Vintagekits (talk) 14:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Of course FAIR aren't neutral, that's not the point. They are a group representing the victims of the massacre which is supposedly the subject of this article, an appropriate link. The Daily Mail is a down market tabloid, not one to be relied upon, even if the article in question does flatter your prejudices. Aughrafin (talk) 14:38, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

My prejudices?? Do you know me, don't attempt to tell me what I think. BigDunc 14:41, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I respect people's right to their prejudices, even when they are nonsensical. "Tell you what you think"! Given the tone of your contributions to this article and the information on your user page, it is clear what you think on this subject. Different people have different opinions; turning an article regarding a sectarian massacre into an article justifying that massacre is hardly a useful exercise. Aughrafin (talk) 14:45, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Time to stop feeding the troll. BigDunc 14:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Can't get the ball, go for the man eh? Aughrafin (talk) 14:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The question remains, "This article is an essay in the justification of sectarian murder. Why has an article regarding the murder of people based upon their religion been turned into a monograph on republican allegations regarding other murders". Aughrafin (talk) 14:56, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Go ahead and improve it then using good well balanced sources and writing! Toddle pip old chap!--Vintagekits (talk) 14:59, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

"Toddle pip"? Aughrafin (talk) 15:03, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, here is an example, one of the links is to Indymedia Ireland, a questionable source, BigDunc repeatedly reverts the title to make it seem as though it is a link to the Sunday Times, a reliable source. How can that be balanced? Aughrafin (talk) 15:16, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, on closer inspection, THREE of the four links are to Indymedia Ireland, a questionable source, and have been misdescribed in the title. One link is fair enough, but three? Aughrafin (talk) 15:21, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I think I have been able to improve this article, thanks for your encouragement Vintagekits. Aughrafin (talk) 15:23, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the link to an unreliable source, ie sectarian organisation FAIR, as it does not contain any pertinent information not in the article. The indymedia links are to seperate stories, and are not duplicate. The attempt to claim details of an Irish government report are bias from the Daily Mail is inappropriate. O Fenian (talk) 15:39, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Aha, OFenian suddnly takes BigDuncs place - the 3 revert rule is subverted! This is ridiculous, the Irish Government report is already included in the links and I have left them there. One link to indymedia Ireland is fair enough, three is not. Aughrafin (talk) 15:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

They cover different aspects of the story, so how can one be sufficient? O Fenian (talk) 15:46, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The new editor is aware of bots and 3RR don't think they are as new as they claim. BigDunc 15:47, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

VintageKits sent me links to a variety of articles which I have read. Out of 40 references used to justify statements of opinion in this artile, no less than 7 are from Indymedia. Indymedia is not a reliable source - it is a questionable source - they should not form the justification for a statement. Indymedia is a questionable source. The Irish Daily Mail is not a newspaper of record, using it in that way is unusual and of doubtful utility, but it is a newspaper at least. If you want to link to its articles, why not link to its site? l (talk) 15:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

What is more, the articles referenced are not relevant to the Kingsmill massacre, none of the victims was a member of the army or police, it was a purely sectarian massacre, whoever carried it out. These articles belong in an article regarding alleged collusion - there is a very extensive one as I'm sure you know - not in an article about the Kingsmill massacre. Aughrafin (talk) 15:54, 27 July 2009 (UTC)#

My goodness, Republican Jacobite, you have lots of friends BigDunc! FAIR are an approprite external reference, I wouldn't base an article on what they say, but the truth is that they represent the victiims of this massacre and simply the fact that they exist is justification for the link - it adds to the material included in the article. Furthermore, Indymedia is a group with sympathies on one side of the argument in Ireland, FAIR are a group with sympathies on the other side, the Irish Government is sort of neutral, sort of, therefore with FAIR the links are balanced, without it they are unbalanced.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Aughrafin (talk • contribs)

Sir (I am assuming), you haven't idea who my friends are, and I would thank you not to engage in pointless speculation. However, looking at the numerous statements you have made above, you seem to have a problem with making assumptions about your fellow editors, and making comments about them as opposed to their edits. This is not appropriate. May I remind you to assume good faith.

Now, to the matter. It is very simple, FAIR pushes a POV, therefore the link is not appropriate, per WP:ELNO. Please read that link. Thanks. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 02:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

A link to FAIR, which represents the victims of the massacre, would seem to be entirely appropriate in an article about the massacre. I don't see how FAIR's "pushing of a POV" is relevant: all organisations push a POV. Generally, I think the criticisms of this article are valid: it gives the impression of being used as a vehicle for pushing allegations about collusion rather than as an article about the massacre: the implication being that the massacre of innocent workmen was somehow justifiable because collusion was happening at the same time. Mooretwin (talk) 08:48, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

More to the point, does FAIR consitute a WP:RS?

Motivation

Tagged alleged motive for massacre as it's unsourced.Autarch (talk) 19:16, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Man with the English accent

The article needs to elaborate on this man with "the pronounced English accent".--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:35, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I am not aware of any reliable sources elaborating on him. Willie Frazer said something, but he is not a reliable source. O Fenian (talk) 17:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Background

Does the background section need to be so full of events that whilst did happen in the area and are related aren't actually part of this massacre? Should it be slimmed down? Mabuska ^(talk) 21:26, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Could do with a trim alright. Jdorney (talk) 15:51, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I already removed the big Glenanne gang and Pat Finucane Centre paragraph near the end of the section before your response, as it goes into an entirely different topic altogether away from the Kingsmill massacre. Also how relevant is it now the list of events prior to the massacre now that its been declared that the IRA had planned this attack months in advance, before the list of events even happened? Rather they should be condensed down into a small paragraph that gives a general jist. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:14, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Careful, there's competing interpretations here. The IRA, according to Harnden's account, planned the attack in advance as a 'disproportionate retaliation' for the killing of catholics. Not that this is any kind of excuse for their actions but the background is important. That said, it could probably be summarised. Jdorney (talk) 18:58, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

As my last sentence said, i think it should be condensed down, to set the scene so to speak. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:23, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok then, work away. Jdorney (talk) 14:12, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Names of victims

I think it is appropriate to record the names of the victims, it has as much relevance to the topic as the various "responses". Is there any objection to this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oneill1921 (talk • contribs) 19:17, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

The names are very relevant to the article and should be included. By all means go ahead. Just make sure they are sourced. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:02, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok, updated with sourced material. I have followed the format used in the "Bloody Sunday" page as opposed to that in the "Ballymurphy Massacre" as it fits in better to the overall appearance.--Oneill1921 (talk) 16:07, 8 September 2011 (UTC)Oneill1921

Ok I've removed the list per WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE and WP:NOTMEMORIAL please read the following linked discussions here and here. Thanks, --Domer48_'fenian' 19:14, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Why does the Bloody Sunday (1972) article have a list of the dead? Not trying to pick a fight, just wondering why it warrants special treatment. JonChapple^Talk 19:31, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

As a newbie to the site, this was the reason for my first request. I notice that both the Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday massacres both contain the name of the victims, what is the reasoning on this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oneill1921 (talk • contribs) 20:22, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

If we don't get a response within a few days, I'll restore the list here. JonChapple^Talk 20:27, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the victims ar list'd at Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday becaus the circumstances of each deth is unsame. At Kingsmill, all the victims wer kill'd at the same time and in the same spot. ~Asarlaí 21:54, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't see why that would make a difference. The WP:VL essay Domer48 linked to above concludes by saying "Lists of victims of an event are inappropriate unless all listed victims have Wikipedia articles, or a section of an article, of their own." JonChapple^Talk 22:01, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Asarlai how does that make anything different?

To dispel Domer48's flimsy wikilawyering:

• Wikipedia:NOTMEMORIAL - the only bit you could say that is applicable is point 4. I think its stretching it a bit far to say that a list of deceased people here classifies as that.
• Wikipedia:NOTINDISCRIMINATE - where is the indiscriminate and excessive list of statistics?
• Wikipedia:Victim_Lists is an essay, not a guideline, it has no primacy or authority.
• Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-08-24_Birmingham_pub_bombings is not this article and is dated all the way back to 2007. Also to quote from near the end of it:

"Is this where Wikipedia wide policy is about to be decided, or is this just covering lists of dead from NI incidents in the troubles, or is it just the Birmingham Pub Bombings? --81.132.246.132 17:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)"

"No, just the specified articles. Dreamy \*/!$! 16:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)"

Looks like its not relevant to this article then as it wasn't listed in the dicsussion you linked to.

• In fact in Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-08-24_Birmingham_pub_bombings what was the actual result? I notice no administrator notes or actual declarations as to what was reached?

Can to illuminate us Domer48 with the details of how this fails all of the points you've marked out? I would agree if you put forward a compelling case that i couldn't argue with. Though if you want to use the above as reasonings for this article, then in the interest of neutrality you should also put them forward at Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy - or are they different? Mabuska ^(talk) 23:23, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday ar different becaus each victim died at different times, at different places and sumtimes in different ways. By listing the victims and wher/when/how each of them died we ar adding important info to those articles (in the Bloody Sunday inquiries such info was key). If we list'd the victims here it would be nothing more than a list of names. We could do nothing else with it becaus readers hav alredy been told the wher, when and how.

Note: I'm not stedfastly agenst adding the names, I'm just noting why this is different to Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday.

~Asarlaí 00:14, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Claiming a mediation that was about the addition of an identical list to a Troubles article is of no relevance to this article is Wikilawyering in the extreme.

Every time discussions about victims lists have come up, the general consensus has always been that they add no encyclopedic information. They don't help the reader to understand the event, they serve no purpose.

Bloody Sunday does not contain a list of victims that is remotely similar to the list that was added to this article, and various discusions on that article's talk page have agreed with its inclusion. Since the victims of that day were subjected to a lengthy propaganda campaign to blacken their names and justify their murder, how is it not relevant to include the circumstances of their deaths? Shall we just remove the names and call them "Person A" and so on to avoid even the mere suggestion that it is a "victim list"? If someone wants to start a discussion there about incorporating the information into the article beter instead of section like that you know where the relevant talk page is, I'd personally be in favour of it. Note that doesn't mean go right ahead and just delete the section, as that's not what I said....2 lines of K₃₀₃ 12:52, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

That just about sums it up really. Thanks a chara.--Domer48_'fenian' 14:00, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

So your implying Wikipedia should be used as a counter-propaganda tool then? How hard is it to simply say (at its most basic) that the victims were subject to attempts at blackening their names however were acquitted and found innocent after a lengthy process - with some examples given? Or does that dillute the counter-propaganda?

Also Domer48 rather than just simply agreeing with ONiH and avoiding the glaring question as to your poor wikilawyering, maybe you could answer the question - can to illuminate us Domer48 with the details of how this fails all of the points you've marked out? As you didn't respond to it, is it because you can't?

On ONiH's stance, maybe examples of "Every time discussions about victim lists have come up" would help illuminate us as i find it hard to take someones word on Wikipedia these days.

Just simple questions that hould have simple answers. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:42, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

The "justifications" offered up here on which "victims" are appropriate to list("were they subjected to a propaganda campaign", "did the victims die at different times, at different places" etc, etc) are not covered within the guidelines listed within the Wikipedia:NOTMEMORIAL and are not quoted and employed to prevent the victims being listed in other massacres, deaths and murders. We're also left with the bizarre situation that whilst it is apparently relevant to a greater understanding of the Kingsmills Massacre to list 4 of the victims' membership of the Orange Order but not their names?

But that is irrelevant to the main reason why I feel aggrieved at the removal of the victims list I posted. Firstly, I asked prior to posting the list whether it was appropriate- the answer was "yes" from someone, I guess, is an experienced operator on here. At this stage why did no one point out their objection? Secondly, the debate could or actually should have been held whilst the "the victims list" was still on the article- why the need to remove it first? It has been pointed out by "One Night in hackney" that he would be open to debate on the matter with the relation to Bloody Sunday but that "Note that doesn't mean go right ahead and just delete the section, as that's not what I said...."- why was I not granted that same "priviledge"? Oneill1921 (talk) 12:37, 10 September 2011 (UTC)Oneill1921

The general consensus has always been that lists of names add no encyclopaedic information to an article, explain why you think they do. Read the talk page discussions for the articles cited above. Hackney was talking about the Bloody Sunday article.--Domer48_'fenian' 18:55, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Let's be honest here. Strip away all the wikilawyering, it boils down to this. Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday: killers were British therefore list the victims. Kingsmill: killers were Irish republicans so no list of victims. Mooretwin (talk) 20:22, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Victims' names ar given in plenty of articles wher the killers wer republicans. ~Asarlaí 20:27, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

But not this one, because there are policies/guidelines that can be deployed to prevent it. Mooretwin (talk) 20:42, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

There is no policy or guidelines to prevent its inclusion - just poor wiki-lawyering that Domer48 has still failed to justify - as he can't, and no illumination from ONiH about these so called discussions. Now Domer48 is adding a new claim of "general consensus"? Where is your evidence for this Domer48? Like come on, you can only bluff so much - however its simply disruptive editing by Domer48 and ONiH.

"Victims' names ar given in plenty of articles wher the killers wer republicans." - then why not here? Mabuska ^(talk) 21:35, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Now that the assumptions of bad faith and personal attacks by Mabuska have ceased the addition of the names as they stand are against WP:MEMORIAL Mo ainm~Talk 20:22, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Told you. Mooretwin (talk) 22:33, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Care to expand on that Mooretwin you are no innocent either with the personal attacks on Domer. Mo ainm~Talk 08:54, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any personal attacks. JonChapple^Talk 08:56, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Look again, claiming someone is wikilawyering is a personal attack as it is a is a pejorative term. Mo ainm~Talk 09:09, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

That's not a personal attack any more than claiming someone's adding original research, not abiding by NPOV, etc. It's a criticism of someone's editing, not an attack on the editor. JonC^Talk 09:33, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Since when is a pejorative not an attack? It is being used to demean Domer, nothing else. HE is not using legal terms, violating the spirit of wikipedia misrepresenting policy or asserting that the technical interpretation of policy should override the underlying principles they expres, therefore it is solely being used in an attempt to demean and ignore the points raised by both Domer and Hackney. Mo ainm~Talk 09:46, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Since the doubters are not easily convinced, try these - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of General Slocum victims, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre (4th nomination), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of victims of the Columbine High School massacre (2nd nomination), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of General Slocum victims (2nd nomination), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Continental Airlines Flight 3407 Victims, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/September 11th, 2001 victims list. Be aware I'm already aware of what you're probably going to say next about these, so you might want to read up on AFD outcomes before saying anything.

I'll ignore attempts to put words into my mouth that I never said, and reiterare my previous point. Are editors really suggesting that, given the circumstances of the deaths of those concerned were disputed for almost 40 years, that the article on Bloody Sunday should not detail the circumstances of the deaths of those involved? 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:49, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Is it time to refer this as a dispute to someone who is impartial? Opinions here differ. --Flexdream (talk) 14:31, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Re the comment about Bloody Sunday- whilst the circumstances of the deaths may have been disputed, the names of the dead were not- so therefore, what does naming them add to the understanding of the event? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oneill1921 (talk • contribs) 16:24, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Deal with the links which Hackney provided, and drop the inane points on Bloody Sunday the is no mileage left in it.--Domer48_'fenian' 19:25, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is inconsistent. Full victim lists are given in Passover_massacre and Dizengoff_Street_bus_bombing. Some victims are identified in Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings. None are identified directly in Greysteel_massacre but there is a link to CAIN and a list of the victims. Do all these articles need to be amended then? This particular issue here should go to an appeal. I think the names of victims should either be included directly or given in a link, especially considering how much extra information is already in this article. I think a list helps the reader understand why at the time, and since then, this massacre is considered so shocking, as was intended by the perpetrators. --Flexdream (talk) 23:03, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Lists of names add no encyclopaedic information to an article! If you read the linked discussions above you will find that they are consistent.--Domer48_'fenian' 08:15, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

You'll be deleting the list from Ballymurphy Massacre, then? Oh. Sorry, forgot: those were victims of the British armed forces and not of Irish "republicans". Mooretwin (talk) 12:20, 16 September 2011 (UTC)